162 replies to this topic

[Coolwhoami]

SlXSlXSlX, on 06 January 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I am proof you are wrong. That you feel that way, well, that's terrible... I'm sorry.

Given that practically all of your posts are you whining about premades and fabricating statistics and generalities from thin air I am having difficulty arguing his claim. Either be constructive or don't say anything, whining accomplishes nothing.

[SlXSlXSlX]

I may be of low intelligence, but its fun to be me.

[HiplyRustic]

SlXSlXSlX, on 06 January 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

I may be of low intelligence, but its fun to be me.

I'm glad to hear it...and hey, thanks for the stripper

[Greyfyl]

This is how you keep new players coming back for more.....

Yes - there was a premade on the other side that was nice enough to give us their website at the end of the stomping - and no, the guys with 0 dmg were not afk.

Edited by Greyfyl, 06 January 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Martini Henrie]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Anecdotal evidence

One drop does not a game make. Besides, as you know an ELO system is coming, which should prevent one side from getting all the experienced founders and balance out the teams. If that fails, then you can moan all you like (not that its going to stop one team from loosing heavily).

[Wildstreak]

Captain Daryl Taylor, on 06 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

When against premades, I usually received the cadet bonus and 25000, maybe a little for any damage I did but nothing compared to when it was an all public match. One thing I noticed was a social panel in the mech bay area of the game. Is that so you can invite other players to a friends list and maybe run matches with them or is it something they plan to add in at a later date for in game comms and such?

Some people like myself would like to see the Social Panel developed more, it could serve as an alternative to planning matches and getting groups together before a game. Right now, I think you need to add any game frineds for it to work.

[Greyfyl]

Martini Henrie, on 06 January 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

One drop does not a game make. Besides, as you know an ELO system is coming, which should prevent one side from getting all the experienced founders and balance out the teams. If that fails, then you can moan all you like (not that its going to stop one team from loosing heavily).

Yes, because this only happens once every 1000 games or so.....

Have you seen anything that actually says that phase 3 will address the issue with premades only on one side? I haven't. At this point any kind of matchmaking would almost certainly have to be better than what we have now, but really why are we STILL even discussing this issue.

Phases 1 and 2 can be argued to be completely worthless on many counts, I can't say that I have a ton of faith left in me for phase 3. We can only hope.

[Martini Henrie]

Well, if you believe the hype, the 'pre made' players will have super amazing stats that will separate them from the poor hapless pug. This means that the poor new starter pug will get a gentler introduction to the game. This is a good thing.

A players skill will be skewed by how much 'pre-made' time they have, and to be honest if both sides have a 'similar' skill level then the whole 'pre-made' problem becomes moot.

We are STILL discussing this because some players believe that they never ever have a 'pre-made' team on their side when they loose, and that almost every crushing loss is due to that very same boogie man. Reality is far removed from said concept.

Edited by Martini Henrie, 06 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

This is how you keep new players coming back for more.....

Yes - there was a premade on the other side that was nice enough to give us their website at the end of the stomping - and no, the guys with 0 dmg were not afk.

So did they say "Hi , we are Generic Merc Company, and we just steamrolled you with a Sync Dropped 8 man team.. come look more into our spineless ways at www.dicklessmercs.com?"

or did one guy just post "GG from Merc Company so and so, you can find us @.....?".

Because there is a HUGE difference. When I was affiliated with a Merc Corp, if there were even 2-3 of us on a drop we would often times post who we were, and you would be surprised how many "newbs" would download TS3, and look us up, because *gasp* they saw the light...that a team game does play better as part of a team. Though I tended to prefer to announce at the beginning. Figuring any merc units worth their salt on the other side, or ours, would ALSO post, which might give an idea what everyone was facing.

But more to the point, I don't see how one can tell if the unit posting was a 3-4 man premade, or if they were the much storied "evil, 8 man Sync Drop".

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 January 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Um... don't know what game you're playing but I have had many hard fought battles with PUGs. Good Pugs fight with coordination and challenge and beat 4 mans often enough. Or my K/D W/L records would be much higher.

Only time I have seen PUGs get truly rolled by a 3-4 man Premade is if they decide to run to the 4 winds. At which case, I can promise they will get rolled by another pure PUG unit that uses even a small modicum of coordination. I have also seen PUG groups punch an overconfident 4 man right in the mouth (And even one match I had the fun of killing off 3 of the 4 personally, the last 2 when they were circling me as the last survivors of the game..... hence, I rather good and fun match that was literally undecided til the smoke cleared.)

[Greyfyl]

OMG the drama.

Premades compound the problem of a non-existing mm system. It's really not hard to grasp. There is nothing that says to what level the ELO system will go. I find it very plausible that new players will still find themselves up against veteran 4mans. Hopefully the remaining 4 pugs on the premade side will be new players as well to compensate.

We are all second guessing anyways as what we have been told about phase 3 was horribly vague and could end up being just about anything.

[Bishop Steiner]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Yes, I'm sure you're not just a very average player who thinks because he always wins doing 4mans that he is an elite player. I pug probably 80% of the time, but when I do premades I see a large percentage of players that are very below average in their individual skill level.

Or you see what happens when everyone is relatively equal... 8 GOOD players dropping together makes it impossible for everyone to score 700 damage, 3-4 kills and 4 assists. Kinda not enough targets to go around. So their stats "suffer" as it often comes down to who got the enemy in their sights first got the stats.

I know when I drop PUG my numbers sky rocket, because half the time, I appear to be the only semi-competent player on my team. Other times, I have some competition for stats, whereas on 90% of premade drops, we are ALL competing hard for kills and assists, and also many times are more likely to pass up a kill shot to 1) target a more dangerous target (such as ignoring a de-humped Hunchback to shoot at an 85% Stalker instead..... whereas in PUG matches, people ALWAYS go for the easy kill, even if it ends up costing their team.. because in PUG drops, most people could give a crap less about their team, it's all about their individual stats) and 2) much better fire discipline, as I will pull a kill "shot" if one of my teammates accidentally gets in the way, where again in PUG matches, people just let fly.

[Greyfyl]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

So did they say "Hi , we are Generic Merc Company, and we just steamrolled you with a Sync Dropped 8 man team.. come look more into our spineless ways at www.dicklessmercs.com?"

or did one guy just post "GG from Merc Company so and so, you can find us @.....?".

Because there is a HUGE difference. When I was affiliated with a Merc Corp, if there were even 2-3 of us on a drop we would often times post who we were, and you would be surprised how many "newbs" would download TS3, and look us up, because *gasp* they saw the light...that a team game does play better as part of a team. Though I tended to prefer to announce at the beginning. Figuring any merc units worth their salt on the other side, or ours, would ALSO post, which might give an idea what everyone was facing.

But more to the point, I don't see how one can tell if the unit posting was a 3-4 man premade, or if they were the much storied "evil, 8 man Sync Drop".

Honestly Steiner from my point of view it doesn't really matter whether it was a sync drop or not, and that wasn't the point I was making. The point I am making is simply regarding the fact that everyday that goes by without a decent matchmaking system is one more day that probably sees a few more potential players go out the window due helped by the constant steamrolling of premades. Premades aren't THE issue, they are compounding the issue.

That and the fact that people will fight to the death and come up with hilarious excuses to keep their easy ride going.

It's an advantage, plain and simple. One that doesn't need to be there.

[Bishop Steiner]

TB Freelancer, on 06 January 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Yeah tell me about it!

Why fight on a level playing field and only winning half your matches when you can fight unorganized pugs without the benefit of coms or knowing what their teammates are going to be dropping with before the match and win almost all the time?

Seriously. Who want's a fair match when you can have nearly every drop stacked in your favor?

No one is asking for the game to be made easier, they're asking for it to be made fair.

Why come to a game where you are dropped in 8 man "teams" then whine about it when one of those teams actually tries.... teamwork?

There is a reason on games like Unreal Tournament it's a free for all DM..... hence the lack of teamwork doesn't matter. Yet oddly... MWO drops you in teams...


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................

Maybe the real issue is the people who refuse to recognize what type of game they are playing, need to admit their "disadvantage" is self inflicted, instead of making up strawmen to blame? I pug 75% of all my games nowadays... and you don't see me lighting up the forums about the inequity of the world... I know the "risks" when I drop PUG, and I accept them. Too bad others want to have their hand held for them.

Should their be a solo que? Certainly, when and if they add a Solaris 7 option.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 January 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Or you see what happens when everyone is relatively equal... 8 GOOD players dropping together makes it impossible for everyone to score 700 damage, 3-4 kills and 4 assists. Kinda not enough targets to go around. So their stats "suffer" as it often comes down to who got the enemy in their sights first got the stats.

So when you group - are you grouping with random players in TS, or are you grouping with a semi-consistent team. Because many of the players that I've met up with on TS are downright bad. There are plenty of great ones too, I'm just saying that this notion that because you are doing premades you are a good players is garbage.

[Greyfyl]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Why come to a game where you are dropped in 8 man "teams" then whine about it when one of those teams actually tries.... teamwork?

There is a reason on games like Unreal Tournament it's a free for all DM..... hence the lack of teamwork doesn't matter. Yet oddly... MWO drops you in teams...


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................

Maybe the real issue is the people who refuse to recognize what type of game they are playing, need to admit their "disadvantage" is self inflicted, instead of making up strawmen to blame?

Well, I thought we could have a civil conversation until you posted this crap. Keep turning off the pug portion of the playerbase and see how long this game lasts. It's not getting great word of mouth around the gaming community as it is, the last thing we need is this constant horrible attitude of 'get in a TS channel or f off'. It's got to stop.

Maybe the real issue is that you don't want to give up your advantage? I can't see any reason that you would be against 4man premades on BOTH teams unless you really just like to roflstomp new players.

[JSparrowist]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, I thought we could have a civil conversation until you posted this crap. Keep turning off the pug portion of the playerbase and see how long this game lasts. It's not getting great word of mouth around the gaming community as it is, the last thing we need is this constant horrible attitude of 'get in a TS channel or f off'. It's got to stop.

Maybe the real issue is that you don't want to give up your advantage? I can't see any reason that you would be against 4man premades on BOTH teams unless you really just like to roflstomp new players.

QFT

[Bishop Steiner]

I've done all of the above. I have dropped with a few truly bad players, and a few new players, or players with horrible pings, 4 FPS bugs and other things which majorly limit their ability to contribute.

I drop randomly with guys from about a half dozen merc corps, I drop with total newbs from the looking for drop, and I really enjoy dropping with a guy who got rolled, saw the mentions of TS, and decides to try it out. They might be lousy a good chunk of the time initially, but it's actually quite fun to "mentor" new players.

That was actually probably my number one reason for leaving Steele's 1st Legion, even though I still drop with some of them, from time to time, is the freedom to drop with whomever I wanted without feeling like I was costing a teammate a slot.

There are both good and bad players on teams, but most of the guys on established Merc units are above average, and the simple point I was trying to make is that one can't tell 90% of the time in the fog of battle who contributes what, and that the Stats Page at the end is nearly meaningless most times, because of the number of variables they don't list (imagine how much more we would learn if the listed PING, FPS, and such, as a guy who gets even 1 kill with 4-10 FPS has done pretty darn good, even if ti's with LRMs, since so many people who get it just disco and leave the team hanging instead.)

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, I thought we could have a civil conversation until you posted this crap. Keep turning off the pug portion of the playerbase and see how long this game lasts. It's not getting great word of mouth around the gaming community as it is, the last thing we need is this constant horrible attitude of 'get in a TS channel or f off'. It's got to stop.

Maybe the real issue is that you don't want to give up your advantage? I can't see any reason that you would be against 4man premades on BOTH teams unless you really just like to roflstomp new players.

why don't you read the quote I was answering before getting your panties in a bunch. It is called replying in kind, and it was not a reply to you. Or keep having knee jerk reactions, take things out of context and continue the drama, the choice is yours.

Especially since as stated, I seldom "have an advantage to give up" being I pug the great majority of the time. SOmething you keep overlooking. But unlike most people on here, I can, and do, comment from BOTH perspectives, instead of stubbornly clinging to one side of this, for no good or honest reason, like a bunch of frikking Dems and Reps in Congress.

Also at no time do I say "join TS or leave". But if people are going to insist on playing a TEAM game (even one with pretty crappy Voip support) as a solo hero, one will lose. Every single time. And MOST of the stomps I have seen, in well over 2000 matches come more from the actions, and the lack of ANY attempt of coordination on the side of the losing team. I have been on that team often enough, the one when you say "hey guys, lets stick together... want to push the 3 line or the G line?" and you get a bunch of "I want to push your mom duh-hurs" or nothing for replies as you watch your "teammates" spread out like a fan, and predictably, get annihilated.

Literally the only time it has been a complete and utter roll (yes there are occasional OH CRAP WE JUST PUT OURSELVES IN A BAD WAY moments too), are situations like that, or the relatively rare occurrence of the 8 man Sync (which sadly DO happen, just not near as much as people seem to want to believe). Against 4 man premades, with just a little bit of coordination we seldom have killed less that 4 of them, which is far different from the 8-0/8-1 examples getting posted.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 January 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Martini Henrie]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

So when you group - are you grouping with random players in TS, or are you grouping with a semi-consistent team. Because many of the players that I've met up with on TS are downright bad. There are plenty of great ones too, I'm just saying that this notion that because you are doing premades you are a good players is garbage.

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, I thought we could have a civil conversation until you posted this crap. Keep turning off the pug portion of the playerbase and see how long this game lasts. It's not getting great word of mouth around the gaming community as it is, the last thing we need is this constant horrible attitude of 'get in a TS channel or f off'. It's got to stop.

Maybe the real issue is that you don't want to give up your advantage? I can't see any reason that you would be against 4man premades on BOTH teams unless you really just like to roflstomp new players.

So here are the contradictions. By your very own evidence pre-made players are rubbish, so why are you so bothered?

Secondly, by making your version of pugging the 'one true way' you are misrepresenting the community. It is quite clear that Bishop pugs it up, as do I, and we very much don't have the issues you are so determined to sort out. I am loosing track of what you want from the queue, because your statements are becoming contradictory.

[Synther]

JSparrowist, on 06 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

wow...just...wow

You are what's wrong with this game. Congrats.

No, YOU are what wrong with gaming in this current generation in general. Premades that communicate well with one another have been stomping pugs since PvP gaming was created. When this happened in games like UT2k4, UT3, Battlefield 2, or any number of other games, you never saw a bunch of whiney little ahats come onto the game's forums to cry about how they just got their butts stomped into the mud. Instead, those players either found good clans to join up with, learn to play better, and come back for more until they could redeem themselves. This generation of gamers wants to whine about the fact that they are getting their butts kicked in a group based PvP game when they absolutely refuse to communicate with one another and then they want to point the finger of blame at everyone else. YOU are to blame. Not me. Quit being a self entitled whiney little brat and learn how to play the game properly. If you want to play a single player game, go play something else.