72 replies to this topic

[IceSerpent]

Pariah Devalis, on 07 January 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

The logical translation of that to mwo is that omni hard points will be used.

It's not really logical for two reasons: it would mess up the PGI's idea of requiring 3 variants for levelling a mech (as all omni variants would be identical) and it would make a lot of omnimechs OP to the extreme (i.e. Dire Wolf Prime carries 11 weapons if I remember correctly, and 11 SRM6 launchers would be devastating in MWO).

[Pariah Devalis]

It is logical as a strict to TT translation is concerned. Not so much for balance and marketability as you pointed out.

As I suggested a few posts above, they might go the MW4 route with having certain chassis with fixed types of hard points in addition to omni slots, in addition to modability of the internal hardware like engines and heat sinks and armor. So they could sell things like the MadDog D with ballistic only arm mounts, for example. Or selling a Stormcrow A (?) with a missile only torso mounting. All clan mechs would still benefit from a few omni ports as well to keep what is so special about omnimechs special.

Edit: Auto-Incorrect

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 January 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Pariah Devalis, on 07 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

It is logical as a strict to TT translation is concerned. Not so much for balance and marketability as you pointed out.

Not quite - in TT all mechs are technically "omni", as there's no strict rule to prevent you from taking a Hunchie 4G and replacing AC20 with a PPC for example. It generally boils down to what people you play with allow you to do.

Quote

As I suggested a few posts above, they might go the MW4 route with having certain chassis with fixed types of hard points in addition to omni slots, in addition to modability of the internal hardware like engines and heat sinks and armor. So they could sell things like the MadDog D with ballistic only arm mounts, for example. Or selling a Stormcrow A (?) with a missile only torso mounting. All clan mechs would still benefit from a few omni ports as well to keep what is so special about omnimechs special.

Yeah, they certainly could do that. Or they could utilze CW for that purpose - something along the lines of you being able to select a saved loadout after knowing what map you are going to fight on. There are quite a few possible ways to do it.

[Zloj Mangoost]

First of all, my catafracht 1x with 3xLLs and gauss, goes 87.5 or smth - it's negliable difference with 90-92 you write here, Timber wolf may go. Second - with current IS mechs customization abilities, only way to balance clan tech - is to balance heat for example of cERLL to similar of IS LL one - what doesn't go even close to tabletop rules Any other way, IS mech with clan wearpons will be at least similar with clantech, and in some cases even better (as it was in MW4, but at least there were IS omni tech). And pls, don't forget all those talks (and roleplay too) about using zellbringen, and balancing clan/is with less mechs/tonnage on clan side (
Tbh I have no idea how devs can fix oll that stuff. Maybe they want to use NPCs as clanners?

[Cik]

IceSerpent, on 07 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Not quite - in TT all mechs are technically "omni", as there's no strict rule to prevent you from taking a Hunchie 4G and replacing AC20 with a PPC for example. It generally boils down to what people you play with allow you to do.



Yeah, they certainly could do that. Or they could utilze CW for that purpose - something along the lines of you being able to select a saved loadout after knowing what map you are going to fight on. There are quite a few possible ways to do it.

that's not really true, though. there are rules for refits, and though technically anything is possible, a custom refit without a prior factory kit being made is extremely expensive, extremely time consuming (months+) and takes a core planet with a very dedicated high-skill technician class and facilities dedicated to the purpose. refit kits are easier, but still take more than the hour or two an omni-repod takes.

[IceSerpent]

Cik, on 08 January 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

that's not really true, though. there are rules for refits, and though technically anything is possible, a custom refit without a prior factory kit being made is extremely expensive, extremely time consuming (months+) and takes a core planet with a very dedicated high-skill technician class and facilities dedicated to the purpose. refit kits are easier, but still take more than the hour or two an omni-repod takes.

I know, my point is that the only strict rules (along the lines of "you can't do that, no matter what in-game resources you have access to") either apply equally to both omni and regular mechs or apply to omnimechs only. A custom refit for a regular mech generally goes along the lines of your group of players allowing you to spend a few months and a billion c-bills refitting your ride or not - in other words, it's pretty much governed by "house rules".

[Elkarlo]

Seth, on 06 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Sorry, I should have said I was having trouble finding an ECM equipped Omni that was available at the time of Operation Revival. Before that point, the Clans had not adjusted their tactics to combat the Inner Sphere and still shunned the use of ECM.

Let me help you.

Dasher 20T
http://www.sarna.net...th_%28Dasher%29
Alt. Conf. B

Koshi 25T
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Koshi
Alt. Conf.C

Uller 30T
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Uller
Alt. Conf.C

All Clan Omni Lights except the Puma/Adder have an ECM Variant.

Edited by Elkarlo, 08 January 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

PGI has changed the numbers of certain equipment before, so they can do it again. For example, as long as mixtech is not allowded I can actually see Clan DHS go 2.0 or even more to reflect the better stats of Clan equipment. This way the "stock" Omnis wouldn't be hampered by the lack of customization.

[KitK]

umm...yeah...definately some misinformation or misunderstanding IMHO.

->My slower Ilya has more free tons than a Twolf = Twolf will suck. This discussion above about speed and free tongage seemed to overlook the fact that bigger engines weigh more than smaller engines. Drop the Twolf's engine to match speed with the Ilya and viola you have 38.5 tons in which to stuff Clan goodness. Now you are closer to comparing apples to apples.

->Omnimechs' engines, armor, etc. can't be customized. IS mechs' hardpoint system makes them already like omnimechs. Theses are half truths. It is true that an Omnimech's base configuration (not its Prime Variant, its base configuration) has fixed equipment which includes engine, armor, the location of "dynamic" structure and armor criticals, extra engine heatsinks and virtually any piece of equipment you want on every variant. This base model can be customized like anything else in Battletech and can impact your total pod space tonage. All the pods will have to conform to the change, and pods only allow weapons and equipment changes that do not impact the base configuration. So, changes to any part of a standard battlemech or an omnimech base configuration are exactly the same thing. The time, costs, risks, and limitations a TT player might encounter when modifying either of these types of mechs in a campaign style game are not a part of MechLab because they are not part of the simulator, meta game or community warfare as we know them.

Now handling the omnipods themselves (both loadout and functional use) is an issue, and it seems to be at the heart of the concern. With the current hardpoint system it is reasonable to expect a Twolf Prime to have 5E 2M 2B in specific locations. But it is kind of hypocritical to limit the pods in that way while allowing wholesale changes to the base configuration per our current MechLab. But even if chassis changes do work out identical to the current model for sandard battlemechs, Clan omnimechs are not losing anything (nor would they be gaining it back) in design freedom that hasn't already been lost in MechLab to limit boating and expoits. The omni concept isn't that radical in mech design terms. It is radical in usage. In TT you can't just change your battlemech between fights, but you can change your omnipods. Being able to choose the pod setup you want before the counter hits 0 (as many have said before) would be a more core implementation of the omnimech concept than a free-for-all in the MechLab.

[Thorn Hallis]

KitK, on 08 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

->Omnimechs' engines, armor, etc. can't be customized. IS mechs' hardpoint system makes them already like omnimechs. Theses are half truths. It is true that an Omnimech's base configuration (not its Prime Variant, its base configuration) has fixed equipment which includes engine, armor, the location of "dynamic" structure and armor criticals, extra engine heatsinks and virtually any piece of equipment you want on every variant. This base model can be customized like anything else in Battletech and can impact your total pod space tonage. All the pods will have to conform to the change, and pods only allow weapons and equipment changes that do not impact the base configuration. So, changes to any part of a standard battlemech or an omnimech base configuration are exactly the same thing. The time, costs, risks, and limitations a TT player might encounter when modifying either of these types of mechs in a campaign style game are not a part of MechLab because they are not part of the simulator, meta game or community warfare as we know them.

Thats where lore and rules colide. Of course it is possible to switch the engine, add or remove armor and such on Omni'Mechs. But the lore dictates that the Clans would never do it because they see it as waste.

[KitK]

Thorn Hallis, on 08 January 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Thats where lore and rules colide. Of course it is possible to switch the engine, add or remove armor and such on Omni'Mechs. But the lore dictates that the Clans would never do it because they see it as waste.

Well, at least this collision is between Lore and its own TT rules - not that it makes it any easier for MWO.

[Metalfyre]

IceSerpent, on 07 January 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

You got something to back this up? Namely, the statement that PGI is going to give MW4-style "omni hardpoints" to omnimechs?

Asking for such specific 'evidence' when none exists does not make that statement moot. In the storyline, Omnis are able to swap out weapon pods in between battles. IS 'Mechs require an extensive refit in the hangar to do the same. This is the key difference in versatility between the two. How PGI decides to apply this into the game is their decision.

Yes, you can do a lot of changes with your 'Mech in the Mech Lab. But as it stands in game, IS 'Mechs in the hangar (while able to swap out weapons of similar class) are not able to change weapon types (i.e Missile hardpoints STILL cannot hold energy weapons). This restriction was applied by PGI (mentioning this because the topic relates to implementation into MWO rather than TT.) However, if being able to change from a Medium Laser to a PPC constitutes 'Omni' to you, then there is not much more that can be said.

Edited by Metalfyre, 08 January 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

That is something I was unaware of. Thank you for pointing it out!

That said, the idea of being able to toggle between two or three preset load out options on load up would be incredibly good. Especially if balanced by asymmetric team sizes.

[Thorn Hallis]

KitK, on 08 January 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Well, at least this collision is between Lore and its own TT rules - not that it makes it any easier for MWO.

Indeed. Going with the fluff, ER-PPC, AC10 or ER Large Laser are the heaviest weapons you could mount in the arms of a Timber Wolf - totally contradicting the given rules.

[qultar]

what gets me is some think the IS can rebuild a mech
from the ground up yet the Clans can not

you can not change your engine or chassis in most TT groups
even weapons are not a simple task unlike on omni mechs

to the ones that try to say for lore the Clans will not
some how think that the IS will and i think that is a joke

[IceSerpent]

qultar, on 09 January 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

what gets me is some think the IS can rebuild a mech
from the ground up yet the Clans can not

Rules are rules - modifying a non-omni is up to the group you play with, modifying an omni is strictly limited by construction rules.

Quote

you can not change your engine or chassis in most TT groups
even weapons are not a simple task unlike on omni mechs

You can't change chassis? Never even heard of a group that wouldn't allow you to take Cat C1 instead of Cat C4 (for example), that's beyond hardcore as far as I am concerned.

Quote

to the ones that try to say for lore the Clans will not
some how think that the IS will and i think that is a joke

This part simply makes no sense at all, sorry.

[Adridos]

The only way you could properly actually give Clan omnies their inherit advantage is to make a game-mode where they can just switch weapons when at base (with some kind of cooldown and a small time window while refitting). It would be fun and even promote scouting (scout finds a team of SRM6 boaters, load up long range weapons and proceed to own them really hard), but I have hard time imagining how could you swap weapons on the fly without getting into the non-effective, too much heat, etc. territory, because you would lack the UI and infinite time you have in mechlab. Maybe only switch between the alt-configs that are predefined?

Anyway, can they switch heatsinks? I mean, we all know how greatly do stock mechs transfer into the MW:O's heat values and if they couldn't change them...

[Thorn Hallis]

Adridos, on 10 January 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Anyway, can they switch heatsinks? I mean, we all know how greatly do stock mechs transfer into the MW:O's heat values and if they couldn't change them...

Clans are DHS only. And they can add them as long as they have free podspace.

[MustrumRidcully]

dal10, on 06 January 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

heat dissipation becomes an issue with the equipment however, the lack of regular weapons is going to cook the clans, light clan tech will have limited to no bonus besides range as they run out of weight before crits. however the extra heat generated means that they can't afford to use the lighter clan weapons in greater numbers as they would fry themselves.

The trick is - just equip a bit less. Your gear is still uber,and you got the better DHS. If you don't like the energy weapons, take the ballistics and missiles. Clan Streak SRM6s, Clan Gauss Rifle, Ultra AC/20s. You'll find something to build your uber mech. It won't look like any of the standard table top configurations, but it will be more powerful than the IS mechs (which also won't look like the table top stock variants, since stock mechs in MW:O don't generally work)


And whether they will actually have engine or armor limitations remains to be seen. I am not aware that it was as simple in the table top game to take an IS mech and change it from ENdo Steel to normal Internal Armour or to replace Engines with XL Engines and all that.

[dal10]

actually the only pieces of clan tech that worry me at all are the ultra ACs and the high level streak units. streak 6s are going to be painful, and you probably will find people who boat them and then get ECM support. Multiple ultra 5s are ridiculously strong right now, my ac/20 kitty was unable to get 2 salvos off before a triple ultra ilya cored me to death. a daishi with quad ultra 10s is going to be scary. other than that your energy weapons are arguably weaker than IS ones due to massive heat generation, and your lbx 20 is not going to be that scary at all, I would rather take a normal ac/20 until they get the slug and cluster options for it.



quad ultra 10 daishi

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-D-D
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 29,385,333 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,159

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
4 Ultra AC/10s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 152 points 5.00
Internal Locations: 3 LT, 4 RT
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 400 26.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 13(26) 3.00
Gyro: Standard 4.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 240 12.50
Armor Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 2 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL
CASE Locations: CT, LT, RT, LA, LL, RL 0.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 37
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 21 32
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 17 23
L/R Leg 21 29

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Ultra AC/10s RA 6 8 20.00
2 Ultra AC/10s LA 6 8 20.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) CT - 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) RT - 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) LT - 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) LA - 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) RL - 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) LL - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 8

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 8 Points: 22
4 6 6 6 0 4 0 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

took me 2 minutes to build, just chain 2 in one arm and 2 in the other.

Edited by dal10, 10 January 2013 - 11:20 AM.