72 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Why stop there? Quad gauss, or two uac20 two gauss.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Im all for spirited discussion on rhetorical subjects but it is always an odd thing to me how vehemently and even angrily some people argue their hypotheticals regarding balance when nothing clan is even introduced in game yet.

[Pariah Devalis]

Thank you for the informative additional information or idea brainstorming you put forth regarding omnimech viability, Lukoi.

If you would like to participate again with something slightly more on topic, perhaps one should read through the second half of page 1 through page 2 where it kept a fairly even keeled, non-aggressive look at the potential pitfalls of the omni system. There is no reason not to speculate, and no reason not to wonder about how they could avoid making omnis either overpowered or underpowered. To be clear, the issue with omnimechs also extends to the IS machines that are years away from now (except magnified, given IS tech is heavier).

The clans are scheduled to make an appearance of some sort within a few months Four months I think it is? Four months is not a lot of time. And even if all they are for a few months after that are news reports, again, it does not hurt to speculate. Certainly cannot hurt Piranha Games. I would not be surprised if they are internally asking themselves similar questions as we speak.

[qultar]

IceSerpent, on 09 January 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Rules are rules - modifying a non-omni is up to the group you play with, modifying an omni is strictly limited by construction rules.



You can't change chassis? Never even heard of a group that wouldn't allow you to take Cat C1 instead of Cat C4 (for example), that's beyond hardcore as far as I am concerned.

So you had a group that let you change a mech to endo steal?
that is the chassis as it is listed in the tech books
the rules for simple weapon changes on IS mechs were harsh
so do not tell me that Clans need to be buy the book if IS ones are not

Freebirth the last part was to the ones that were saying that it was
unclan like to let us change mech forgetting that IS mechwarriors
rarely were allowed to even do simple changes

[Adridos]

Lukoi, on 10 January 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Im all for spirited discussion on rhetorical subjects but it is always an odd thing to me how vehemently and even angrily some people argue their hypotheticals regarding balance when nothing clan is even introduced in game yet.

Preventing something bad to happen is better than rushing in blindly and then correcting issues that arise.

[Thorn Hallis]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why stop there? Quad gauss, or two uac20 two gauss.

Thats exactly what makes me think we will never see "omnislots" in MWO. Like we'll probably never see 'Mechs like the Annihilator or the Kraken/Ruin.

[IceSerpent]

qultar, on 10 January 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

So you had a group that let you change a mech to endo steal?
that is the chassis as it is listed in the tech books

Sorry, I misunderstood you - usually "chassis" means "mech variant". Yes, I've played in groups that allowed for extensive refits like changing structure to endo steel. There were serious financial consequences, but it was allowed.

Quote

the rules for simple weapon changes on IS mechs were harsh
so do not tell me that Clans need to be buy the book if IS ones are not

Can you...uhm...translate the second line into real English please? I have no clue what you are trying to say here.
Rules for IS mech changes only cover finances and time required, there are no rules whatsoever that explicitly limit what weapons you can mount (aside from crit space and tonnage limitations obviously).

[qultar]

changing weapons in big way had other drawbacks
some times they made the mech more unstable ie -1 to piloting rolls
other times they be poorly tied into the targeting system -1 to hit rolls
and then some times they mite fail in combat

[IceSerpent]

qultar, on 11 January 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

changing weapons in big way had other drawbacks
some times they made the mech more unstable ie -1 to piloting rolls
other times they be poorly tied into the targeting system -1 to hit rolls
and then some times they mite fail in combat

All of which were "house rules".

[qultar]

IceSerpent, on 11 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

All of which were "house rules".

yes but under the same idea you can do it to any mech

[IceSerpent]

qultar, on 11 January 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

yes but under the same idea you can do it to any mech

Nope. There are official rules that restrict construction for omnimechs, but there are no such rules for non-omnies. That's the whole point - in TT modification of an omni is actually more restricted than modification of a regular mech, at least as far as published rules go. Historically this has almost always been balanced by all sorts of "house rules" that restrict construction/modification of regular mechs in some way.

[Pariah Devalis]

Either way, if we do get the ability to modify the base chassis separately from the content of one of several pod-loadouts, it will make Omnimech construction in the lab a step more complex then it is now. I personally do not see the problem with that. Just means we get to set our own podspace values based on customized base frames.

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, the more I am thinking having more then one or two omni-points on a mech is a terrible idea for balance sake. IE: 4 Gauss or 2 Gauss + 2 UAC20 Dire Wolfs. When the mech can almost literally one shot an atlas, there is a problem here. o_0

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 January 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Stormwolf]

To answer the original question of this thread, omni tech is not viable in MWO due to the mechlab and ease of customization.

[qultar]

made me brake out the rule book "OmniMechs are designed to use interchangeable modular pods, so they are rarely customized. However, even Omnimech chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor, and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures."
these rules are also were the ones i was talking about there not "house rules"

[Pando]

qultar, on 12 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

made me brake out the rule book "OmniMechs are designed to use interchangeable modular pods, so they are rarely customized. However, even Omnimech chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor, and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures."
these rules are also were the ones i was talking about there not "house rules"

^ this.

[IceSerpent]

qultar, on 12 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

made me brake out the rule book "OmniMechs are designed to use interchangeable modular pods, so they are rarely customized. However, even Omnimech chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor, and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures."
these rules are also were the ones i was talking about there not "house rules"

That's exactly my point - official rules cover OmniMech construction only. There are no similar rules for non-omnies. If you can find an official rule that covers replacing standard structure with endo-steel (for example) on an IS mech in a similar fashion, please share it with us. By "similar fashion" I mean a rule that says you can or can not do certain modifications instead of just financial and time requirements for a refit.

[Vanguard319]

you guys might be over thinking things, An Omnimech CAN haves it's engine and armor adjusted, but it's weapons become hard wired into the mech, essentially turning it into a standard battlemech. If the game had repair/service bays in the field, you wouldn't be able to reequip damaged or destroyed weapons, since it does not, the point is moot.

[qultar]

IceSerpent, on 14 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

That's exactly my point - official rules cover OmniMech construction only. There are no similar rules for non-omnies. If you can find an official rule that covers replacing standard structure with endo-steel (for example) on an IS mech in a similar fashion, please share it with us. By "similar fashion" I mean a rule that says you can or can not do certain modifications instead of just financial and time requirements for a refit.

the part i posted is word for word from the books NOT under construction but customizing/retrofits
now the rule book talks about every thing BUT internal structure
and what needs a tech roll or you get draw backs or whats "simple"

were did you get the idea that this stops them from being omni i see no rule on that

[Vanguard319]

to quote Sarna:

Quote

Despite their flexibility and maintenance benefits, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics.
OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. ^[19] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However the mounting points for them are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons and PPCs and so must be automatically removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations. ^[20]
With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field.

Edited by Vanguard319, 14 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[gilliam]

Thorn Hallis, on 06 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

To reflect the tactical adaptability of Omni'Mechs I'd suggest to allow the pilot to switch to a variant of his choice after the map is loaded.

I am really hoping they do this.
==
Clan Chassis aren't really that superior to IS Chassis. They get a bit more FF armor per ton, and clan XLFEs aren't killed by a single side torso loss, but the only advantage beyond that is that equipment takes less space.

The trick is that Clan weaponry is superior.
They also have some stuff we don't: Ultra ACs and LB-X acs in all sizes and SSRMs in all sizes as well as ER lasers in all sizes, though it does come at the cost of regular lasers and autocannons (they need to make LB-X able to fire slug, so even things out a bit)

There might be some issues with range, but I don't see clan mechs being nerfed too much by an inability to modify fixed gear due to the superiority of their weaponry, and the ability to fit whatever wherever. You have some advantages even with the new disadvantages.