162 replies to this topic

[merz]

Looking over the past few months of posting here and elsewhere, i continue to be confounded by one particular subject that comes up fairly often: premades. Even the term itself seems pejorative from the start. One comment in a thread not long ago seemed to vilify players dropping with voice communication or coordinating with one another as though they were somehow 'farming the game on easy mode'..

All this seems strange to me both in terms of battletech lore and the game in its current form: we are dropped as teams.Though voice communication is not integrated into the game to a level I feel it should be completely out of the box, it is still there if you make the least bit of effort. Far from its majority involves some self-described 'military-style gaming groups'. I stumbled upon the folks I play with presently through trying out C3, and have consequently been enjoying my MWO experience far more than I ever did trying to cat-herd random bunches of disorganised players, who often seem too content to run around like headless chickens.

Perplexing part comes where these aforementioned chickens come to cry here. I mean, I don't quite understand - do you honestly believe that a disorganised tangle of random strangers fanning out is the way to go about playing this obviously team-focused game? Must you blame those who prefer teamwork to such nuttery for what really amounts to your failure to grasp the obvious?

Get on teamspeak - there are open servers.
Get on C3 - its supposed to be integrated into the game somehow in the near future.
FInd other people to pay with. Without them this game offers a very shallow experience you will never be able to truly enjoy. At the very least, don't blame others for doing so.

Edited by merz, 05 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Team Leader]

I honestly never got the whiners either. Most pugs are ok, but when the whiners come here and demand that people playing a team based game as a team get punished, or that playing a team based game as a solo player get made easier for them, without any effort on their part... It's just stupid.

Edited by Team Leader, 05 January 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[Sears]

People have different reasons why they don't want to be in a premade or go on TS. And many of those reasons are completely valid. Such as simply just wanting to hop into a few games here and there. Those players should be able to do that. The game needs to improve the commands function so that teams without the convenience of voip can effectively communicate. There also needs to be incentives to issue and follow these commands.

The game is a team game yes, and there's not a lot of room for soloing. Perhaps if they release a solaris add on then that would put more emphasis on the solo mech rather than the team, also you can put more traditional multiplayer game modes and have it sort of make sense in the Solaris setting.

When (IF) Community Warfare comes out it will hopefully encourage the use of team work and creating merc outfits and things, non of which are supported in game.

[ElmoWithAGun]

It's because people take video games too seriously.

[Sug]

Some people, like myself, only want to pug. We asked devs to keep 8 man teams separate. They did. No one 8 mans. So here we are complaining about premades again.

Edited by Sug, 05 January 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Mawai]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea of pre-mades (i.e. folks dropping as lances or groups). It is probably the ideal way to play.

However, some folks don't like playing with strangers. Some folks only have the time for a match or two. Some folks dont want to wait on a team speak server until a group forms. Some folks have had bad experiences with folks they run into this way. Some folks dont have a mic. Some folks are playing where they can't make noise. There are lots of different reasons why everyone does not get onto some sort of voice server and form a group with other players.

So ... given that there WILL be some number, likely large, of folks dropping without voice coms or an organized group ... how should matches be structured to maximize the fairness for all players?

... and this is where the complaints arise. Many folks think it is unfair to have a coordinated group on one team against a collection of players using only in-game text chat to coordinate on the other. Co-ordination and strategy are a huge advantage. Knowing the mechs and abilities of your team mates is also an advantage. The matchmaker knows who is grouped and who isn't ... and so it is up the matchmaker to create teams that are more or less balanced. One suggestion was to have the matchmaker either put groups on both teams or neither and fill the rest of the slots with the required mechs from the single player queues. This way there would be a group on both sides. I think this may be happening more frequently recently.

In any case ... all the so-called whining about pre-mades is really whining about the matchmaker which is, as always so far , a work in progress.

[Tastian]

Terrible. The 'whiners' are 'whining' not because premades shouldn't be allowed, but because the matchmaking is nonexistent. There is one giant pool that just randomly throws anyone together regardless of if its their first time playing, using trial mechs, are veteran soloers, have crap loadouts, afk, bots, suiciders, or highly organized teams sync dropping. Do you think its fair that someone in a trial mech who doesn't know how to target with 'R' or group his weapons is paired up with 3 other people who may also have trial mechs against a skilled group (or 2) of 4 on Teamspeak? No, its not. Its horrific that someone who has just downloaded this game and started using a trial mech and barely has any chance to practice is getting streamrolled by premades. If there is no practice drop area, then at least let them group up with other people of the same skill. But don't complain about those pointing out that they don't like being pug stomped.

[Wraith05]

Sears, on 05 January 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

People have different reasons why they don't want to be in a premade or go on TS. And many of those reasons are completely valid. Such as simply just wanting to hop into a few games here and there. Those players should be able to do that. The game needs to improve the commands function so that teams without the convenience of voip can effectively communicate. There also needs to be incentives to issue and follow these commands.

The game is a team game yes, and there's not a lot of room for soloing. Perhaps if they release a solaris add on then that would put more emphasis on the solo mech rather than the team, also you can put more traditional multiplayer game modes and have it sort of make sense in the Solaris setting.

When (IF) Community Warfare comes out it will hopefully encourage the use of team work and creating merc outfits and things, non of which are supported in game.

I agree with you, but what a lot of people on both sides of the fences get frustrated with is instead of providing some useful feedback and suggestions on how to improve their experience without separating themselves or harming another experience they vilify the other side.

Instead of either side going "integrate a VOIP into the game and add some quick command functions so we can fight on equal ground!"

We get "they are ruining our gaming experience! Seperate us! make them have to do this or that! They have no skill! et..." or "L2P, it a team game! Join a team! get on a VOIP!"

So no really constructive feedback or conversations ensues and the community gets split as enemies instead of working together.

[Bishop Steiner]

well, since you still drop 8 to a side (usually) it would seem like one is going to be playing with strangers, whether one chooses to communicate with them or not.

I support a "Solo" que, but tbh, only for a Solaris set up. It would not be the end of the world if it was in GenPop, I suppose, but it just seams like a dumb way to run, since 2 "groups" (can't call em a team if they all drop solo) of chickens running around with their heads cut off only works in the Hunger Games.....

[PiemasterXL]

OH GOD NO YOU'VE OPENED ANOTHER ONE

[Mawai]

Team Leader, on 05 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

I honestly never got the whiners either. Most pugs are ok, but when the whiners come here and demand that people playing a team based game as a team get punished, or that playing a team based game as a solo player get made easier for them, without any effort on their part... It's just stupid.

I'm not sure what demands you are referring to that would punish team players ... the only requests I have seen have been to modify the matchmaker to match teams against other teams and single players against other single players. Unless you think reducing the ability to rofl stomp uncoordinated loners is a punishment ... ?

[Wraith05]

Mawai, on 05 January 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

I'm not sure what demands you are referring to that would punish team players ... the only requests I have seen have been to modify the matchmaker to match teams against other teams and single players against other single players. Unless you think reducing the ability to rofl stomp uncoordinated loners is a punishment ... ?

I think it would hurt teamplay by making the 'group' queue like the 8v8 is now. Hard to find matchs and 1-2 generic builds/teams when you do find matches.

[Flyby215]

Pre-mades certainly do have a communication advantage, but I can tell you from experience that no amount of communication can overpower superior skill from opposing players, even if said players are PUGs.

The quarrel I presently have though is how come I will occasionally come across 6-8 founders on a single team, and absolutely none on the opposing team, yet apparently this has nothing to do with pre-mades or matchmaker. I once suggested that if there are 6+ founders on a single team, there is likely a pre-made (on the basis that founders have been playing longer than anyone else, and therefore most likely to be involved in some sort of team activity by now) but I am repeatedly scolded, ridiculed, and occasionally told "founders and pre-mades are completely unrelated noob". Not trying to hark on founders or anything, but why would I be outright ridiculed for asking why there are 6-8 founders on a single team yet none on the other? Shouldn't random chance dictate a more even distribution?

[SlXSlXSlX]

People paint premades as evil because they see them focusing on meximizing their personal enjoyment, at the expense of the majority of the player base. Whether that be in terms of match per match fun for public players, or in terms of their experience being fun enough to come back the next day, it is lessened by premades.

[Greyfyl]

And once again since you 'don't understand'....


People want to pug, it doesn't matter in the least why; the why is irrelevant. If you don't understand it, yea well, I can't understand how anyone could possibly think that throwing pugs against premades is in any way a good idea. I've heard a million excuses, but at the end of the day 90% of the people doing premades just want easy wins.

Now here comes the important part, so please listen as I'm a really tired of trying to explain this simple concept to people over and over again. This game needs players, lots of players (this is a core concept for the f2p model) and many of these potential players will want to pug; it doesn't matter why - but it's a trait that a decent part of the online gaming community shares. Putting these pug players in games that are consistently stacked against them will (has) certainly drive a decent percentage of those players away to play other games. We need those players to stay here and support this game.

Nobody is telling you that you can't or shouldn't be doing premades, we are simply stating that your free ride at the expense of pug players needs to end. I think you will find that if 4 man premades ONLY got matched against other 4man premades you would see the number of 4 mans drop tremendously....just like we saw when 8mans were released.

So again let me summarize...

Players taking advantage of TS to roflstomp new/pug players = bad for the long term survival of the game.

For those that truly want the social aspect of TS, I have no problem with 4mans in vs pugs as long as both sides have a 4man. I can't possibly see how that would be hard to implement, but at this point it won't happen. Phase 3 is coming so premades have their easy ride until then.

[Felix]

Wraith05, on 05 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

I think it would hurt teamplay by making the 'group' queue like the 8v8 is now. Hard to find matchs and 1-2 generic builds/teams when you do find matches.

there are plenty of 4 mans queing up to pug stomp as it is, and so what? If you want to play as a group you should be willing to wait for another group to come up in the rotation, not just go and drool while ya stomp on a bunch of solos

[Greyfyl]

Sug, on 05 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Some people, like myself, only want to pug. We asked devs to keep 8 man teams separate. They did. No one 8 mans. So here we are complaining about premades again.

Yes, all those players that 'wanted a competitive environment' sure ran back to 4mans quick didn't they? What a shock, I can't believe nobody saw that coming.

Oh wait, many of us did.

[MadPanda]

They don't need to scrap premades. What they need to do is:

Step1: They need to enable proper ingame voip system.
Step 2: Include ranking/elo system (coming in phase 3 i know)
Step 3: Fix <include future yet unknown whine here>

Those would be the main points. Obviously various polishing is needed but not as critical as those mentioned above.

[herosson]

Have any of you ever played BF3?

[Sears]

Greyfyl, on 05 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

People want to pug, it doesn't matter in the least why; the why is irrelevant. If you don't understand it, yea well, I can't understand how anyone could possibly think that throwing pugs against premades is in any way a good idea. I've heard a million excuses, but at the end of the day 90% of the people doing premades just want easy wins.

90% of people doing premades just want easy wins? Surely the reason why people premade is irrelevant, people want to premade.