26 replies to this topic

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

*Update 3/6/13*

-Thanks Thomas for finally correcting the LRM flight patterns with/without Artemis. The only problem now is that LRMs retain incredible accuracy, offsetting the broken balance between massive raw damage and inaccuracy.

*Updated 4/2/13*

-LRMs and SRMs damage per missile have been cut dramatically. How if they only moved more than a mile an hour and could consistently hit something, we'd be in business. There are still some major issues, such as the minimum range and ECM, but we'll see what happens with the upcoming fix to SRM flight patterns. Thanks again Thomas & company for your hard work at getting "good" missile mechanics back into MechWarrior.

For someone being involved within the closed beta, it was painfully obvious PGI was struggling for a long time to get LRMs to work even remotely close to what they wanted, never mind within the ballpark region of balanced.

During all this, keep in mind that Clan LRMs have zero minimum range and half the tonnage. Just imagine a cat with 6 CLRMs firing point blank at your face. Can you say hello 216 point alpha? Well I hope the Devs can, because that is EXACTLY where they are heading if they don't take a good hard look at how LRMs work in game.

-Bad weapon mechanics

-BAP/NARC worthlessness

-ECM imbalance.

The first thing PGI needs to do to bring LRMs back on track to normalcy is to balance out the equipment (and maybe finish adding in weapon features like alternative ammo like inferno lrms or allow hot loaded LRM racks). After that is taken care of, LRM stats need to be reworked almost entirely. I'm talking minimum range mechanics, missile speed, damage per missile and accuracy.

So, first things first. Raw Damage. Have you ever tried taking a Stalker or Awesome, and loaded it to the brink with LRMS? I'm talking like an LRM 80 salvo. If your missiles make impact, current is 1.8 damage a missile, you're TWO shotting an Atlas (under 300m those suckers don't miss!). God help them if you're shooting at a light mech; they just instantly melt. The role of an LRM isn't to all out kill mechs, its to soften them up. But the sheer damage doesn't do that. It just kills. So, the damage stats are definitely off. Remember the Artiemis catastrophe when missiles only hit the CT of mechs?


The second point is Accuracy. Well ok, the LRMs horrible accuracy and weapon spread is meant to mitigate that. But here is where the problem starts to pick up. LRMs stats and weapon mechanics are built around being horribly inaccurate, but what happens when all the LRMs do make impact? Well, see the above paragraph. This is why the system is bad. PGI tried to balance hugely over the top raw damage with the assumption of bad accuracy, which doesn't always happen. It doesn't work.

The third problem is Missile Speed. Part of this compounds the accuracy problem trying to balance out the raw damage numbers. At range, firing on anything moving faster than 90kph means those mechs are nearly out running the missile itself. This leads to two scenarios. 1) The missiles that do make impact chase the target briefly meaning those missiles mostly hit in the rear torso. 2) That some mechs moving fast enough (especially on water and its missile sponge mechanic which is another topic for another time) means nearly all missiles completely miss the target. Yes, if you're in a light mech going fast enough, a quick turn means you've effectively dodged every missile salvo.

Finally, we have Minimum Range. Now now, I know Canon, LRMs have a minimum range in which they cannot fire -- but past mechwarrior games knew about this and thought, yeah no -- lets not do that and have some other solution. PGI has made their decision on trying to really stick close to TT, but this is one of those things that needs to be changed from canon. Keep the spirit of a minimum range, not the verbatim. Ask, why is there a minimum range, instead of blindly following TT? MW4's solution for instance was that LRMs fire mechanic and tracking made it pretty darn difficult to find their target close up. You could still fire and do damage, but it wasn't realiable, so anyway...

...here is one way("one", I should say one solution with many parts) to make LRMs more dynamic, useful and overall a LESS pain in the rear for the user and receiver of those LRMs. The first, change LRMs damage per missile to reduce the overwhelming raw damage. 1.8 damage a missile is absurd. Sure, it helps the trial mechs out with their single LRM10. Sadly, on a cutom mech a single LRM is pretty much wasted tonnage, but part of that is also the way LRMs work which I'll get to. For now, reduce that LRM damage back down to something like 1.4 or 1.5 damage after 180m. I'll get to why I say after 180m in a minute.

Well, good job Highlander, you just made LRMs completely worthless again. Now hold on, part of why PGI made LRM damage so high is because they are so inaccurate. So the second part is to make them more accurate to compensate. Wait a minute, now that 30 damage on an LRM 20 is still pretty darn good. A basic LRM 20 with no tags, BAP or Artemis will spread the damage a reasonable amount to still hold the spirit of the weapon. But, now when people want to mix TAG, BAP,Arteimis or a teamates with NARC into the mix, now the weapon has changed from a general support (again, in spirit of TT to soften the enemy mech up) to now somewhat precision missiles so people can use them as long range mech killers. Wow! Suddenly, theres a little more depth in the game and mechlab, too. Of course, that precision still depends on proper use of equipment and the use of LOS. Likewise, LRMs will still hold the bad accuracy when being fired around terrain, but become a much more formidable weapon system with direct LOS.

Now, the second part on accuracy was to increase missile speed. By what percent, maybe 150% of current? Basically, there is no reason why a mech should be able to out run a missile. Regardless of how much BT =/= reality, that is just a horrible concept. At the same time though, missiles shouldn't be made so quick as to that you don't have time to get under cover, either. The other side is, missile acceleration and velocity. Since we're making the LRMs a significant % faster to increase accuracy, but still allow mechs some time to take cover, make the LRMs need to accelerate to their max velocity when fired. This is also tied in part of balancing the last part.

The minimum range mechanic. I am not a fan of this, and its not fun, especially for new guys who don't even realize it! Yeah, the game needs a tutorial but thats another topic. So, why did I say 1.4 damage (or 1.5, its just an example) after 180m and have LRMs need to accelerate to their max velocity? Well heres why. Change the minimum range mechanic to an optimal range mechanic. Allow these LRMs to still do damage within that 180m range, but not at full damage or even close to decent accuracy. In Canon, LRMs have a minimum range due to the LRMs having an arming distance, so (again, an example) change the LRM damage to something like .8 or 1 damage per missile within that range! That way, they're still useable (well, more so than now) and new players especially don't get frustrated when they're inside their trials firing thier missiles and thinking "wth is going on?!". It also helps those who prefer to take a more balanced build, so that single LRM 10 or 15 now has that much more use, especially in the current brawler focused maps. Hell, PPC's right now do a very similar mechanic where they still hurt within 90m, just not nearly as much! (its a linear progression, where they do 5 damage at 45m, 3.3 at 30m, etc.) This still emphasizes use of LRMs outside 180m, but doesn't digress them to glorified beach balls, either.

So, I guess here is the TL;DR summary.

-Reduce LRM damage to somewhere in the 1.4, 1.5 range
Missile damage has been reduced dramatically, check the mechlab for current damage/missile stats.

-Increase accuracy
New Flight Pattern Increases LRM accuracy dramatically.

-Fix equipment, giving a more meaningful impact on how LRMs perform/LRM role.

-Increase missile velocity

-Implement missile acceleration when initially fired

-Remove minimum range mechanic

-Reduce LRM accuracy within 180m

-Remove equipment/accuracy bonus within 180m

And as a side thing
-LRMs no longer start to do that missile swarm thing until they are closing in on the target.
Fix'd! Thanks Thomas for the new LRM flight pathing!

There ya' go. LRMs are fixed and when that Cat with 6 CLRMs comes into battle, he/she won't instantly melt you to death with 120 LRMs to the face. These changes are meant to still hold the spirit of the weapon and purpose through Canon/TT, but alter them so they are more fun and just make sense in a real time FPS environment.

Edited by mwhighlander, 01 April 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I've been a long time proponent of changing the LRMs and SSRMs. The core issue of the whole ECM fiasco is that missiles are broken, so they introduced a device to band-aid a fundamental problem with missiles.

I'd like LRMs to go to 1 damage a missile and have faster, flatter, straighter flight paths. Not that lobbing, floating, swarm of explosive locust feel. I'd also like to see SSRM's and SRMs go back to stock damage values. If everything else is TT damage, why should missiles get special treatment?

The LRM's in MW2, MW3, and MW4 were better than this garbage. Straight fast flight paths with only 1 damage per missile.

Bam, fundamental problem fixed. Now ECM can be made into a soft counter instead of it being a hard counter.

[MrMasakari]

To be honest I think there are too many variables to consider. Whats worse is missiles are affected by other external factors as well so your talking up to 10 variables to consider almost immediately.

In my eyes they should either have, fast low damage missiles or slower high damage ones. As said Lrms generally are inacurate but high damage. Artemis made them accurate and suddenly the game is broken as 40lrms bombard just one part of your mech and critical damage you from one-2 volleys. (no longer the case ofcourse)

To be honest I think its just a case of finding the right balance of speed, accuracy and damage.

Edited by Artaire, 10 January 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Artaire, on 10 January 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

To be honest I think there are too many variables to consider. Whats worse is missiles are affected by other external factors as well so your talking up to 10 variables to consider almost immediately.

In my eyes they should either have, fast low damage missiles or slower high damage ones. As said Lrms generally are inacurate but high damage. Artemis made them accurate and suddenly the game is broken as 40lrms bombard just one part of your mech and critical damage you from one-2 volleys. (no longer the case ofcourse)

To be honest I think its just a case of finding the right balance of speed, accuracy and damage.

Well put.

[General Taskeen]

MechWarrior 3 kind of did "Ok" with missiles. For the most part missiles hit something at range if they are slow or are sitting still (as they should), but the missiles still lose track (even if you are target locking them) if the enemy Mech is either A. Doing sudden Jump Jetting Maneuvers at the last possible moment or B. Is moving at least over 80km/h or C. starts to change directions sharply and move at odd angles throwing the missiles off entirely.

That's really all that is needed, imo, for MWO. Their damage can be high, but offset by sudden change to movements, Jump Jets, or speed. The MW3 missiles are also very slow, which is why missing with them happens. The same occurs to SSRMs.

Like Altaire said, lock on weapons can be done in one of two ways

High Speed, Low Damage (ensuring high hit probability)
Low Speed, High Damage (low hit probability, but big payoff if they hit)

Currently LRMs are somewhere in between, and SSRMs are the best of both (High Speed/High Damage).

SRMs are No Lock On, High Damage, but that would change if they gave Narc its true ability to be used as a lock on for regular SRMs.

I think slowing all missiles down, and giving them the high damage might be a possible solution. Then from there, change how ECM works entirely so it doesn't shut down locks (just makes it longer).

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 January 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Bumping this because Clan LRM's will kill us all. Instantly.

[Wolfways]

JohanssenJr, on 10 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'd like LRMs to go to 1 damage a missile and have faster, flatter, straighter flight paths. Not that lobbing, floating, swarm of explosive locust feel. I'd also like to see SSRM's and SRMs go back to stock damage values. If everything else is TT damage, why should missiles get special treatment?

Nothing is TT damage. All weapons have increased and various rates of fire, especially AC's.
Plus, in a game where you can aim at target locations any weapon that can't be aimed and spreads damage should have increased damage.

[Theobald Hauser]

Wolfways, on 08 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Nothing is TT damage. All weapons have increased and various rates of fire, especially AC's.
Plus, in a game where you can aim at target locations any weapon that can't be aimed and spreads damage should have increased damage.

This, exactly.

Also, the OP ECM still will work against CLRMs, so why all the drama ?
Theorycrafting all this is meaningless without 1- ECM rework too (unplanned) and 2- the certainty IS mechs will be able to use Clantech.
Furthermore, LRM80-mechs have a sh*tload of weaknesses already.

[Erasus Magnus]

mwhighlander, on 06 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

...

So, I guess here is the TL;DR summary.

-Reduce LRM damage to somewhere in the 1.4, 1.5 range

-Increase accuracy

-Fix equipment, giving a more meaningful impact on how LRMs perform/LRM role.

-Increase missile velocity

-Implement missile acceleration when initially fired

-Remove minimum range mechanic

-Reduce LRM damage to .8, 1 damage per missile range within 180m

-Reduce LRM accuracy within 180m

-Remove equipment/accuracy bonus within 180m

And as a side thing
-LRMs no longer start to do that missile swarm thing until they are closing in on the target.

There ya' go. LRMs are fixed and when that Cat with 6 CLRMs comes into battle, he/she won't instatnly melt you to death with 120 LRMs to the face. These changes are meant to still hold the spirit of the weapon and purpose through Canon/TT, but alter them so they are more fun and just make sense in a real time FPS environment.

I like the OP`s proposal.

I would say YES to all of them but would set the LRM speed to 200%, which would be 200m/s, as fast as SRMs are currently. With the time to accelerate, i think it would give the target enough time to run for cover.

Also, with reduced damage (i think 1.3 actually is a good number, perhaps tighten the spread a bit?), I would like to think about increasing the amount of LRMs per ton, so I dont have to take 6! tons of ammo with me just to stay in the game with my 2LRM10s in longer games.
IIRC in TT the amount of ammo per ton was around the same as it is in MWO. But in TT they were fired every 10 seconds so the ammo lasted MUCH MUCH longer.
In MWO the ammo should at least double to give the same ammo per ton per round (10seconds).

TL;DR:
In addition to the OP`s suggestions:

Damage of 1.3-1.5 feels about right
double Ammo per ton to give LRM boats some staying power.
increase missile velocity to about the same as srms.

General Taskeen, on 10 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

MechWarrior 3 kind of did "Ok" with missiles. For the most part missiles hit something at range if they are slow or are sitting still (as they should), but the missiles still lose track (even if you are target locking them) if the enemy Mech is either A. Doing sudden Jump Jetting Maneuvers at the last possible moment or B. Is moving at least over 80km/h or C. starts to change directions sharply and move at odd angles throwing the missiles off entirely.

That's really all that is needed, imo, for MWO. Their damage can be high, but offset by sudden change to movements, Jump Jets, or speed. The MW3 missiles are also very slow, which is why missing with them happens. The same occurs to SSRMs.

Like Altaire said, lock on weapons can be done in one of two ways

High Speed, Low Damage (ensuring high hit probability)
Low Speed, High Damage (low hit probability, but big payoff if they hit)

Currently LRMs are somewhere in between, and SSRMs are the best of both (High Speed/High Damage).

SRMs are No Lock On, High Damage, but that would change if they gave Narc its true ability to be used as a lock on for regular SRMs.

I think slowing all missiles down, and giving them the high damage might be a possible solution. Then from there, change how ECM works entirely so it doesn't shut down locks (just makes it longer).

as an lrm user, i would rather take the high speed low damage approach, as currently, over half of the mechs that are implemented in MWO would outrun my lrms, rendering me virtually useless.

it also seems more in line with tt, with lrms supposed to be rained down on the enemy, weakening him, instead of (rarely) blowing them up in a single volley.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 09 February 2013 - 01:04 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

JohanssenJr, on 10 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I've been a long time proponent of changing the LRMs and SSRMs. The core issue of the whole ECM fiasco is that missiles are broken, so they introduced a device to band-aid a fundamental problem with missiles.

I'd like LRMs to go to 1 damage a missile and have faster, flatter, straighter flight paths. Not that lobbing, floating, swarm of explosive locust feel. I'd also like to see SSRM's and SRMs go back to stock damage values. If everything else is TT damage, why should missiles get special treatment?

The LRM's in MW2, MW3, and MW4 were better than this garbage. Straight fast flight paths with only 1 damage per missile.

Bam, fundamental problem fixed. Now ECM can be made into a soft counter instead of it being a hard counter.

+1

mech3 LRMS

and ECM that disrupts inside the 180m but doesnt give blanket stealth at any range.

[Theobald Hauser]

Yeah so basically, you want to play another game.

[Gremlich Johns]

Make the maximum damage for ANY missile 2 pts instead of 2.5.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Amarius, on 09 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Yeah so basically, you want to play another game.

What? You mean, play mechwarrior? Have you ever done that before?

Gremlich Johns, on 09 February 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Make the maximum damage for ANY missile 2 pts instead of 2.5.

What do you mean by this? Right now SRMs do 2.5 damage per missile, LRMs do 1.8

[Adridos]

mwhighlander, on 06 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

-Reduce LRM damage to somewhere in the 1.4, 1.5 range

We already tried 1, but LRM players were useless waste of tonnage.

Something in between happened that made them add AMS to every mech.

It was upped to 2 and then everyone except LRM players said how OP it is.

Then they moved it to 1.7 not so long ago, but LRM players were up in arms again.

And now we'e here with 1.8 damage, ECM and TAG.

Oh, and Alpine Peaks happened, which made people realise how bad the dmg actually is.


Personally? I am heavily against LRM powerhouses, but at the same time am a new recruit amongst the Trebuchet LRM platform pilots, so I will have to defend it a bit too.

[Stingz]

Adridos, on 24 February 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Personally? I am heavily against LRM powerhouses, but at the same time am a new recruit amongst the Trebuchet LRM platform pilots, so I will have to defend it a bit too.

I prefer faster moving over heavier damage LRMs, slam those pop-tart -3Ds with Artemis-15s. I'm already fast enough with lock bonus to catch the on the decent, but I want to give them a faceful on the initial jump.

LRMs are meant for ranged softening, and support.

Edited by Stingz, 24 February 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Adridos, on 24 February 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

We already tried 1, but LRM players were useless waste of tonnage.

Something in between happened that made them add AMS to every mech.

It was upped to 2 and then everyone except LRM players said how OP it is.

Then they moved it to 1.7 not so long ago, but LRM players were up in arms again.

And now we'e here with 1.8 damage, ECM and TAG.

Oh, and Alpine Peaks happened, which made people realise how bad the dmg actually is.


Personally? I am heavily against LRM powerhouses, but at the same time am a new recruit amongst the Trebuchet LRM platform pilots, so I will have to defend it a bit too.

The problem isn't just the damage, though. The damage was changed from time to time as a result on how often/frequent the missiles where landing and the total damage done by the LRM boats.

ONLY changing the damage values of LRM isn't fixing the problem. They are fundamentally imbalanced, in a bad way. Its more like treating the symptom rather than the cause.

Edited by mwhighlander, 24 February 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Missiles having TT damage values (SRM = 2/missile, LRM = 1/missile) would fix missiles.

[DeadlyNerd]

JohanssenJr, on 10 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I've been a long time proponent of changing the LRMs and SSRMs. The core issue of the whole ECM fiasco is that missiles are broken, so they introduced a device to band-aid a fundamental problem with missiles.

I'd like LRMs to go to 1 damage a missile and have faster, flatter, straighter flight paths. Not that lobbing, floating, swarm of explosive locust feel. I'd also like to see SSRM's and SRMs go back to stock damage values. If everything else is TT damage, why should missiles get special treatment?

The LRM's in MW2, MW3, and MW4 were better than this garbage. Straight fast flight paths with only 1 damage per missile.

Bam, fundamental problem fixed. Now ECM can be made into a soft counter instead of it being a hard counter.

I kind of suggested that MW3 LRM trajectory when artemis is active but I guess you gotta have a shiny founders badge to get noticed, or the good old "FIX LRMS NOWAH" thread title.

edit: that is THE ONLY thing that's needed to change on LRMs cause people aint afraid enough to run across the LRM boats screen at a 400-700m range as half of them will just hit the ground while attempting to follow the target.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 24 February 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Updated, thank you Thomas for the new flight pattern.

1 Problem out of 20 for why LRMs are broken fixed! We're(PGI) making progress!

[Thuraash]

This sounds like a great solution. LRMs as currently implemented have serious problems, but show fantastic potential. Here’s a gently modified version of OP’s idea that, I think, would work even better:

• Implement missile acceleration:
  LRMs launch from the tubes at a very low speed (60 m/s ~ 216 kph) and then accelerate to a fast cruising speed (185 m/s ~ 504 kph) as they fly. They should hit cruising speed around 500m away from the point of launch. If they were to accelerate at 30m/s², they would travel 500m along their firing arc in 4.11 seconds, and would travel along a 1000m arc in just short of 6.8 seconds. This has several beneficial impacts:
  
  • Increases time to impact in close range engagements, limiting the missiles' utility and giving enemies time to react and take cover.
    
  • Decreases time to impact in long-range engagements, making LRMs more effective at long range, which is exactly where they’re supposed to be dominant. They also will be much more effective against enemies stranded more than 6 seconds from cover.
    
  • Decreases the raw probability of hitting a fast-moving, evasive target at close range due to the missiles not traveling much faster than the target 'mech.
    
  • Increases the raw probability of hitting a fast-moving, evasive target at long range, forcing even fast 'mechs to take cover at long range to avoid damage.
• Tie damage to missile speed and eliminate the hard-cap minimum range:
  The 180m hard-cap is really awkward to deal with. Your missiles go from completely ineffective to hilariously effective because of a 1m difference. There's a more elegant solution: tie the amount of damage LRMs do to their flight speed, so their damage potential increases out to 500m, at which point it stabilizes at max damage. At 60 m/s (point-blank range), the missiles should do negligible damage (~0.4 damage/missile). As they accelerate to their 185 m/s cruising speed, their damage output linearly increases to the full 1.8 damage/missile. At ~400m range to target (estimating based on the trajectory path to get 500m flight distance), the missiles will deal their full damage output. This partially eliminates the need for a minimum range, which brings us to the next point:
  
• Missile maneuverability improves as speed increases
  Like real missiles (simplifying the physics greatly), LRMs should enjoy substantially better turning rates as their speed increases. Their aerodynamic surfaces have more airflow to work with and the missile itself has more energy to burn on maneuvers. This has several beneficial effects:
  
  • Missiles will be sluggish to maneuver at close range, reducing their accuracy inside 500m flight distance. It gets worse as the target gets closer to the point that it has to be practically stationary to be hit at <100m. This further reduces the need for the 180m hard-cap minimum range.
    
  • Missiles will maneuver very well at 500m+ flight range, forcing even zippy light 'mechs to take cover or risk substantial damage. Again, this makes the missiles more effective in their intended engagement range.
• Eliminate the hard-cap maximum range and simply cut off missile fuel
  After ~1000m flight range, instead of simply neutralizing themselves, the missiles run out of fuel. Their speed and ability to maneuver very quickly diminishes so that by 1400m they are essentially dumbfire, flying at just 80m/s or so. By this time, the missiles should be essentially falling out of the sky on a pure ballistic trajectory.
  
• Tie missile cloud spread to the number of missiles in the cloud
  Only so many missiles can occupy a given volume of space. As more missiles are fired in close proximity to each other, the cloud should grow larger, limiting the number of missiles that will actually strike any given part of the impact area. The more missiles in the cloud, the greater the likelihood of any given missile missing. This mitigates against the benefits of firing masses of missiles at once in terms of damage output; in order to maximize damage, the firing 'mech should fire the launchers one at a time, allowing the missiles to fly in several smaller clouds instead of a huge mass. This forces a choice: firing the massive cloud will saturate a larger area, increasing the probability of hitting a faster or more evasive asset, will get more missiles to the target area faster, and will better burn through AMS protection than a stream. The stream, however, will do substantially more damage per salvo. It also levels the playing field, to an extent, between 'mechs mounting a single LRM10 or LRM15, and boats, discouraging full-out boating.

These changes would make LRMs behave in a much more intuitive and rational fashion, and make their operating parameters much clearer to players. They would also make the missiles function in a manner more faithful to their tactical role on the battlefield. It is also rationally justifiable. Missiles don't magically accelerate to speed; the rocket boosts them to speed over time. They also don't go from completely inactive to completely active at an arbitrary range point; they just can't maneuver well or use their armor-piercing warheads to their full potential until the missile is at speed.

This will be far more consistent with the current implementation of every other weapon in the game, where effectiveness tapers up or down with range instead of hitting arbitrary hard-caps. Plus, watching the missiles streak into the sky and accelerate to 500kph as they blaze down towards their targets 900m away would just look damn cool.