102 replies to this topic

[Pr8Dator]

So now we are b itching about alpha strikes???? sigh... the whining never ends...

MadSavage, on 07 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Rarely do all your weapons hit exactly one spot, that only happens if both you and the target are standing still at close range facing each other. If that's the case, it wouldn't take a very high roll in TT to get massive damage on the enemy.

Or that you are firing 5 or 6 PPC alpha strike hehehhe

[Sayyid]

I think the convergance issue would also be a fix for this problem. I already know there will be a great deal of crying about it but it would make some sense. I know that modern aircraft and tanks have convergance settings that are setup LONG before they get into the fight and cant be changed in the middle of the fight.

[MaddMaxx]

Did the Dev ever actually implement the Weapon stacking rule?

For every extra weapon you added of the same type, the Heat generated by said stack would increase incrementally.

I thought that might be a more elegant solution, as opposed to the straight weapons heat increase, as has been done for some of the Lasers...

[MustrumRidcully]

MaddMaxx, on 07 January 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Did the Dev ever actually implement the Weapon stacking rule?

No.

Quote

I thought that might be a more elegant solution, as opposed to the straight weapons heat increase, as has been done for some of the Lasers...

It's not an elegant solution at all IMO, it's an unecesary complex and bizarre solution to a problem that typically has a very different underlying problem. For example, that convergence itself may be problematic, that table top weapon stats were balanced assuming that each weapon would need its own hit-location roll, and that some weapons are just too good on their own which is why they are boated - so you get the maximum effect of their overpowered advantages.

[TexAce]

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I was thinking on the way into work this morning that in the TT and in the novels no one fired 4 med lasers and they hit the exact same spot and did so much damage that it melted away a ton of armor. They had to cycle through the smaller weapons, which meant it was uncommon for them to hit the exact same spot with the other weapons on that group.

So my suggestion, more thought is, why not remove linked fire and keep the cycle mode.

This will give the KICK back to the big weapons like PPCs, AC/20s, and Guass Rifles.

The issue is right now why would I take a PPC when I can take 2 Medium Lasers and do the same damage for less heat and less range. Or just take 4 medium lasers and do twice the damage and 50% more heat but I can pack 3 heatsinks on top of them.

Just a thought.

TLDR;
Remove group fire, keep cylce fire mode.

Why? It's not broken. The current system works.
Why change, whats not broken? Better improve netcode.

Don't change stuff just for the sake of change. I know, it was just a thought, but other more important things need to be improved.

Edited by TexAss, 07 January 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Sayyid]

TexAss, on 07 January 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Why? It's not broken. The current system works.
Why change, whats not broken? Better improve netcode.

Don't change stuff just for the sake of change. I know, it was just a thought, but other more important things need to be improved.

First off not bitching about alpha strikes. I dont care about them. I am talking about linked fire. If I have 4 med lasers on one TIC, and 2 PPCs on another, and 2 LRM20s on a third. I can fire the 4 med lasers and do 20pt hits every 2 seconds in one location every 2 seconds or there about. Yet when I read the books, when they fired 4 medium lasers they didnt all hit the same area together. Mainly because the lasers were mounted in different parts of the mech.

Someone else said convergance would be a better solution and after reading their point I have to concede and agree with them, convergance would be a better solution, but it would lead to MORE crying out of the current crop of self entitled brats that play.

[FerretGR]

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

but it would lead to MORE crying out of the current crop of self entitled brats that play.

Your issues are valid, but other people are self-entitled brats when they have issues? Or maybe all gamers younger than you are self-entitled brats, or some other ageist nonsense?

When I read elitist crap like this, I write that person's opinion off without thinking about it, just sayin'.

[Roland]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 07 January 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Autocannons should fire a 3-5 round burst rather than a single shell.

This is a terrible idea... Mechwarrior 4 implemented it like this, and it essentially negated the usefulness of UAC's in that game. You rarely ever saw anyone use them at all.

[Adridos]

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

Someone else said convergance would be a better solution and after reading their point I have to concede and agree with them, convergance would be a better solution, but it would lead to MORE crying out of the current crop of self entitled brats that play.

I think convergence worked waaaaay back in the earliest implementation of the game, but then it was scrapped and replaced with pin-point accuracy. I'm not sure, though.

Edited by Adridos, 07 January 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Sayyid]

FerretGR, on 07 January 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Your issues are valid, but other people are self-entitled brats when they have issues? Or maybe all gamers younger than you are self-entitled brats, or some other ageist nonsense?

When I read elitist crap like this, I write that person's opinion off without thinking about it, just sayin'.

If youre offended by that, then perhaps you havent been around the gaming industry as long as I have or seen/read half the crap I have on beta test forums by "kids" who hop from one free to play beta to the next like a plague of locusts. Its not just anyone younger than me, I have seen some older players who have this "the gaming world owes me EVERYTHING!" attitude. If that makes me and Elitest then so be it. I admit I am an elitest in other aspects of my life, Vets over people who never served and have nothing wrong with them, Nissan Z32 300ZX over any other car, maces over swords, chainmail over plate, turbans over hats in the desert, yeah I am an elitest.

Adridos, on 07 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

I think convergence worked waaaaay back in the earliest implementation of the game, but then it was scrapped and replaced with pin-point accuracy. I'm not sure, though.

Never understood this choice myself.

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent of Change, on 07 January 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

the problem is not how many weapons you can fire at once but the universal automatic convergence of weapons that turn boated small lasers (for example) into more damage efficient weapons than the larger weapons that should be user for that purpose.

I think skill should play a large part int eh game, I think aim should matter I also think that when firing multiple weapons simultaneously only one of them should actually hit exactly where you aimed and the rest should have some deviation from that point, but that is just me.

I think one thing that might help, is the old mechanic where the hotter your mech ran, the more your targeting computer struggled to keep up, so as you run hotter, have the targeting reticle fuzz out, blink on and off, maybe even give false locks, as well as the myomers themselves, which are often used for the actual weapon convergence, being hampered by heat, growing more sluggish,would cause your "cone" would spread more.

That way the alpha again becomes a choice of last resort, and desperation, not the weapon du jour.

Also, riding the heat scale used to make your whole mech go slower, turn more ponderously, and even make simple things like balance harder. Not to mention constantly riding high heat would lead to all sorts of unsavory endings, like cooking off your ammo. (Ammo explosions are either way nerfed, or currently turned off, because I can't think of a time I have died to one in OB, where in closed, I cooked off my AMS ammo more times than I want to admit on Caustic.)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 January 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[FerretGR]

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

If youre offended by that, then perhaps you havent been around the gaming industry as long as I have or seen/read half the crap I have on beta test forums by "kids" who hop from one free to play beta to the next like a plague of locusts.

No, I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that being an elitist instead of using reason gets you ignored, by folks like me, at least.

And I've been gaming since pong. See how your stereotypes lead you to jump to unfair conclusions about the people on the other side of the screen?

You started this thread because you had an issue with weapons converging on a single point. Other people post about convergence from a different perspective. You're making well-reasoned arguments, they're self-entitled brats. Do you see where the error is in this thinking?

[Bishop Steiner]

why do even topics that seem like they are making valid questions/ good discussions have to always venture into the realm of personal attacks and e-peen?

[Jetfire]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if all your torso mounted weapons fired directly forward perpendicular to the torso as well as vertical only arms. Only fully mobile arm mounted weapons would be capable of converging on the target.

Honestly though that sounds infuriating, interesting, but infuriating. I can just imagine the cluster that would occur with lasers wildly flailing all over in chain fire in a vain attempt to actually hit something. Really pinpoint accuracy on the torso is about as realistic as we will get without a cone of fire as any competent person would align torso weapons to converge their max effective distance. I would not be opposed to implementing cone of fire especially if there were accuracy related modules and equipment for the sniping minded.

[DamnCatte]

Linking fire was common in TT, you have to remember ever turn in TT is like, 15 seconds, and weapons fired a lot slower; I don't think every mech just alpha striked every round.

A method a friend told me about that I admittedly partially remember, is a change to the targeting system, and actually implementing that strange weapons convergence in an intelligent way. Perhaps for targeting, instead of a reticule like in most FPS games, how about something along the lines of an artillery rangefinder, so you can draw a relatively accurate bead, but you can't be garunteed a precision hit; within that "strike box" of targeting, it's likely that your weapons will hit anywhere inside that box, diminishing in size dependent on weapons or range. This would reduce killing by players being more accurate than TT entities, and give some of that power of random chance that TT had that MW never really did.

[Agent of Change]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

I think one thing that might help, is the old mechanic where the hotter your mech ran, the more your targeting computer struggled to keep up, so as you run hotter, have the targeting reticle fuzz out, blink on and off, maybe even give false locks, as well as the myomers themselves, which are often used for the actual weapon convergence, being hampered by heat, growing more sluggish,would cause your "cone" would spread more.

That way the alpha again becomes a choice of last resort, and desperation, not the weapon du jour.

Also, riding the heat scale used to make your whole mech go slower, turn more ponderously, and even make simple things like balance harder. Not to mention constantly riding high heat would lead to all sorts of unsavory endings, like cooking off your ammo. (Ammo explosions are either way nerfed, or currently turned off, because I can't think of a time I have died to one in OB, where in closed, I cooked off my AMS ammo more times than I want to admit on Caustic.)

I agree whole heartedly that more consequence based elements would be nice, and that heat playing a MUCH larger role would be nice. But I don't see it moving is a direction where players are actually required to have more skills than point and click so far. I hope they prove me wrong but I have watched a steady removal of actually interesting mechanics in MWO because "they are too hard".

The same kind of outcry you would have if you mucked with current convergence mechanics would be shouted if you started making heat actually have more of an effect than shutting you down.

[Sayyid]

FerretGR, on 07 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

No, I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that being an elitist instead of using reason gets you ignored, by folks like me, at least.

And I've been gaming since pong. See how your stereotypes lead you to jump to unfair conclusions about the people on the other side of the screen?

You started this thread because you had an issue with weapons converging on a single point. Other people post about convergence from a different perspective. You're making well-reasoned arguments, they're self-entitled brats. Do you see where the error is in this thinking?

Then you missunderstood my post. I am not talking about everyone who has a problem with convergance or chain fire. I am talking about the posts that add nothing to the thread or topic and say things like "Someone got killed by a alpha derp derp..." Or "getgudm8". You will see those responses in this exact thread if you did some reading.

But this is completely off topic and has nothing to do with the thread, if you would kindly stay on topic or go elsewhere and discuss this.

Gharland The Red, on 07 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Linking fire was common in TT, you have to remember ever turn in TT is like, 15 seconds, and weapons fired a lot slower; I don't think every mech just alpha striked every round.

A method a friend told me about that I admittedly partially remember, is a change to the targeting system, and actually implementing that strange weapons convergence in an intelligent way. Perhaps for targeting, instead of a reticule like in most FPS games, how about something along the lines of an artillery rangefinder, so you can draw a relatively accurate bead, but you can't be garunteed a precision hit; within that "strike box" of targeting, it's likely that your weapons will hit anywhere inside that box, diminishing in size dependent on weapons or range. This would reduce killing by players being more accurate than TT entities, and give some of that power of random chance that TT had that MW never really did.

TT turn is 10seconds.

Solaris 7 TT turn is 2.5 seconds

[DamnCatte]

Been a while, thanks, but being off on my count doesn't really change my point.

[Sayyid]

Gharland The Red, on 07 January 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Been a while, thanks, but being off on my count doesn't really change my point.

Wasnt argueing your point, you are quite correct in your point. You rarely seen every mech alpha every round.

[DamnCatte]

And I do agree with a lot of the talk on what things heat should do to ruin your day. I always remember that ominous bar of "bad stuff" on the bottom right of my mechsheet, where things would just start to go from bad to worse if you left it going for too long without properly checking your fire.