44 replies to this topic

[Odin]

Hello fellow Mechwarriors,
I'd like to see our Mech able to pop smoke, just like regular tanks can.
Would add a little tactical option, if you need cover - or want a street to be obscured!

Any thoughts?

[S3dition]

Odin, on 04 November 2011 - 02:40 PM, said:

Hello fellow Mechwarriors,
I'd like to see our Mech able to pop smoke, just like regular tanks can.
Would add a little tactical option, if you need cover - or want a street to be obscured!

Any thoughts?

If mechs have smoke, they also have thermal cameras, making smoke utterly useless. If there were infantry it may serve a purpose.

[Razor Kotovsky]

Mechs are somewhat higher than tanks and aren't actually aerodynamical...
Maybe as special ammo for AC20 as smaller calibers wouldn't provide enough smoke.

S3dition, on 04 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

If mechs have smoke, they also have thermal cameras

I really don't see the logic behind this.
Smoke cover was used long before firearms, let alone thermal cameras.

MekTek expansions had a variant of mech-mounted thumper artillery with smoke iirc.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 04 November 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[Hayden]

Odin, on 04 November 2011 - 02:40 PM, said:

Hello fellow Mechwarriors,
I'd like to see our Mech able to pop smoke, just like regular tanks can.
Would add a little tactical option, if you need cover - or want a street to be obscured!

Any thoughts?

Smoke as a result of fire was part of the Battletech table-top game (not sure if recent rules include it). I don't think it's a bad idea, the only issue at this point is that there's no mechanic for it "out of the box" (aside from, you know, burning a forest down), so the devs would need to take creative liberties with how the smoke is deployed by the 'Mechs.

[Odin]

S3dition, on 04 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

If mechs have smoke, they also have thermal cameras, making smoke utterly useless. If there were infantry it may serve a purpose.

Salut!
So why have real tanks smoke tubes, by all their IR gear on board?
I think it still would make sence.

[Odin]

hayden, on 04 November 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

Smoke as a result of fire was part of the Battletech table-top game (not sure if recent rules include it). I don't think it's a bad idea, the only issue at this point is that there's no mechanic for it "out of the box" (aside from, you know, burning a forest down), so the devs would need to take creative liberties with how the smoke is deployed by the 'Mechs.

Well, its no biggy, smoke tubes on real tanks are small things, I wouldn't mind if you can't see them on our Mech models.

[Drakkonwd]

I'd be for it. the point of popping smoke on a tank is to create just 2-3 seconds of distraction. That's enough time to get around a corner, etc. It would also take the enemy mech a second to switch to thermal view, so I think it would be tactically helpful. The only issue is then the developers would have to account for breeze.

[Lorebot]

The amount of smoke needed to obscure a Heavy mech would be immense and not something that could be deployed readily, it would take a while to accumulate. As far as I'm aware there's never been a weapon or ability for mechs in the tabletop game to 'pop smoke', though I know it was available to tanks and other non-mech vehicles and infantry/elementals. The rules for smoke from fire were always fun, but there were never rules for smoke and/or dust clouds from collapsing structures and I really think there should be.

Thermal cameras and optics do not fully negate most smoke or dust, and there are even variant smoke grenades or rounds that are meant to negate them completely. Regular smoke or dust will interfere with thermal optics, but not completely so their capability would be reduced but not negated.

Since MWO is supposed to be based, at least initially, on urban combat having light or medium mechs with the ability to 'pop smoke' makes sense since it's generally going to be more confined meaning less area to fill with smoke before it's effective and less wind so the smoke last longer without dispersing. Heavy and Assault mechs probably wouldn't bother with a smoke system, they have the weapons necessary to simply collapse buildings to create dust clouds that would be far more effective and far faster than any smoke generating system. A cannon or ppc blast to the side of a large structure will probably be enough to bring it down, which as we all are aware i'm sure from videos of 9-11 and other building collapses, creates vast clouds of dust and debris that would easily obscure a larger mech from view. In fact just go watch the MWO trailer from 2009, there's a ton of dust illustrated in there

[S3dition]

Odin, on 04 November 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:

Salut!
So why have real tanks smoke tubes, by all their IR gear on board?
I think it still would make sence.

To blind infantry and light vehicles without it. Since there are neither of these in the game, why waste developer resources?

[S3dition]

Razor Kotovsky, on 04 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Mechs are somewhat higher than tanks and aren't actually aerodynamical...
Maybe as special ammo for AC20 as smaller calibers wouldn't provide enough smoke.I really don't see the logic behind this.
Smoke cover was used long before firearms, let alone thermal cameras.

MekTek expansions had a variant of mech-mounted thumper artillery with smoke iirc.

swords and sticks were around before firearms. How many of those get issued today?

Smoke will only blind enemy's using the visible light spectrum. All mechs should have IR if they have stabilized targeting computers. Can I make it any more simple?

[Razor Kotovsky]

S3dition, on 04 November 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

swords and sticks were around before firearms. How many of those get issued today?

Smoke will only blind enemy's using the visible light spectrum. All mechs should have IR if they have stabilized targeting computers. Can I make it any more simple?

Well, how about hot yet heavy smoke? Both ghetto and effective.

Can i make it anymore simple?

Spoiler

Not starting a military thread here but T-90 does have IR jammers...

Exactly what gregsolidus said in the next post.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 04 November 2011 - 10:06 PM.

[gregsolidus]

http://en.wikipedia....Infrared_smokes

Your welcome.

[VYCanis]

I would love to be able to have smoke dispensers as a relatively cheap light countermeasure system.

and yeah, there actually are rules for them in the tabletop in the Tac Ops book.

essentially grenade launcher + smoke ammo,
sure, no canon variants that i know of sport them, but then again, no canon warhammer variants sported recon cameras either. and considering how small and low tech smoke launcher are, its not like it'd be a huge stretch of the imagination to just bolt em on.

They might also be handy for reducing some of the damage from lasers a little bit. since IR inhibiting smoke would diffuse some of the energy.

[Odin]

Thanks for the replays lads.

S3dition your post is not without merits.
It'll cost time money to make - sure, and no one here is expecting the Devs jumping on this rightaway.
But stil, as OP mentioned smoke - and I hope lost of it is in game anyway, as well as it got its place in the BT world,
so all I say is, it'll be a nice addition, both in terms of dev circles and game lore.
As a last resort...

Danke - Razor, Canis and gregsolidus for helping me getting the point across!

S!

[Adridos]

They can be, but just on light mechs, so they can survive when an assault cathes them and on some mediums (just some small tonnage ).

[Raj]

I could see the devs adding an infrared cockpit view as battlemechs should light up all sorts if they're even switched on so why not have scout mechs with Electronic Warfare packages disable it or fuzz it or something. Then you could pop smoke and it would be pretty effective. Even if it only obscures 3/4 of the mech it'll buy you time to fire first.

It could also be used as a distraction. Pop smoke where you aren't going to be and the enemy is going to search that area long and hard before moving on.

edit: Or perhaps have it as a commander ability. Not a bad thing to have when you can see a larger amount of the battlefield. (I would put this in my Commander discussion post but people didn't seem to think it was worth discussing

Edited by raj, 05 November 2011 - 01:53 AM.

[infinite xaer0]

S3dition, on 04 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

If mechs have smoke, they also have thermal cameras, making smoke utterly useless. If there were infantry it may serve a purpose.

um, smoke will have its own heat signature, which would obscure the heat signature of whatever is hiding behind it or in it.

[Phades]

I could even see LRM or SRM deploying an alt-ammo smoke round for suppression needs. This concept plays into the info-warfare ECM/ECCM setups. Mostly this kind of thing would likely be employed on light and medium mechs, due to offensive weapon tonnage constraints.

[VYCanis]

There are laser inhibiting smoke rounds for Arrow IV artillery missiles. They pretty much neuter the damage from lasers passing through.

Handy if you want to lessen the effectiveness of er large laser snipers that are trying to fire on your missile support units.

[SystemSurge]

I think all Mechs should be able to pop smoke and chaff. Smoke would visually obscure the Mech and degrade IR sensors and possibly degrade Laser damage by 10% (just my thoughts for the game). Chaff would cause false Radar readings that make it look like there are more Mechs or even just larger Mechs on your radar display. It could also cause Radar Guided missiles to bit off on the Chaff and miss the intended target. I think each Mech should have two shoots worth of smoke and chaff. Both smoke and chaff systems are very compact and light and should be standard issue and an integral part in the denial and deceptions techniques of a warfare environment. I have included a link to a YouTube video of modern tanks using smoke