1063 replies to this topic

[Lonestar1771]

WTF!!! How did this thread get all the way to pg 4 with out the obligatory Morbo cameo!?!

[HRR Insanity]

Dirus Nigh, on 07 January 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Man from the thread title I really thought it was going to be a particular well known prophet [sic] of doom from closed beta.

Tell me why my beam of light has to be as inaccurate as a smooth bore musket?

Because if we don't prevent groups weapons from being DIRECTLY better than single weapons because they instamatically hit the same spot, the game is unbalanced. It breaks the damage model, the armor system, and the heat model as a result of attempting half-assed 'fixes' to the problem of combined damage.

Quote

Like weapons mounted in torsos are made so their fire converges with each other. Just like the machine guns in a P-51 Mustang. It would be just stupid not to do this. A pilot could set pairs of weapons to converge at different ranges. Again P-51 pilots did this depending what worked for them.

Real world doesn't matter here. We're trying to balance a game. It's current broken. This will fix the underlying issue.

Quote

I must ask, if a WW2 pilot, or any real world pilot, or any gunner, could have a weapon system that would automatically change the convergence point as needed I don't think they would scream OP. Then demand that the accuracy of their weapons be down graded.

You are not thinking about gameplay. Of course we all want our weapons to be infinitely powerful. That's not the game we're attempting to simulate here. We're attempting to simulate BattleTech:

The Succession Wars plunged the Inner Sphere into centuries of interstellar warfare soon afterwards. In this technological and cultural dark age of Lostech, the Successor States of humanity soon fought with 'Mechs and other equipment that was literally decades, if not centuries, old and in a sorry state of repair. Ancient automated factories continued to produce BattleMechs even when their technology was not understood anymore. Over time, equipment shortages, system failures and similar problems sparked innumerable variants of the classic designs. Field modifications and makeshift repairs became commonplace.

This is NOT the real world. This is a science fiction alternate universe where things are not as they are here. These 'Mechs are basically being held together with bailing twine and willpower. They're NOT death machines anymore... they're old decrepit death machines.

Quote

In the world of Battletech weapons are made to do just that. Each weapon is fitted with small actuators that will adjust the convergence automatically depending on the range to target.

Yes, but in BattleTech, the technology was jury rigged and probably didn't work perfectly as it was centuries old. See above.

Quote

I can not possibly think you have not noticed but weapons in MWO do take a small amount of time to converge on a point. If you fire off a pair of lasers and sweep them across objects at different ranges, the beams will cross at the shorter point. They need to adjust. That is why we have a pilot skill that effects this very thing. Most players take a moment to aim their weapons, so the adjustment is not even noticed.

The convergence time is currently set so low so as to be unmeasurable. The convergence pilot skill makes absolutely no difference. An 6 ML alphastrike from a Jenner-D with NO pilot tree skills has exactly the same chance of hitting the same panel as one that has been Mastered. 100% chance.

The Devs promised they would do something about this nearly 8 months ago. Where is it?

If the Devs actually implemented a 1000-1500ms convergence time (pre-pilot skill), I'd be fine with testing it. I still think it wouldn't address the issue, but at least it would be something.

Dirus Nigh, on 07 January 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

This is the best proposal I have read dealing with the convergence topic. Battlefield, Arma, Ghost Recon, and even Call of Duty games have done this. The function of the mechanic was to simulate inaccuracy based on movement and recoil. It would be a better system to simulate a mechs energy and ballistic weapons making adjustments based on movement, recoil, and being hit by weapons fire.

And heat.

[Harabecw]

I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but during the good old days of MPBT:3025 we had exactly the same problem of pinpoint accuracy alpha destroying mechs (they had normal armor values, Btech style). The devs implemented early on a built in spread for alpha firing, while maintaining accuracy for chain firing. The spread would be like 50% aimed section, 25% for both sections near it.

This solved the problems and we shot each other happily. I still chain-fired cockpits off of mechs with my hunchback P.

Edited by Harabecw, 07 January 2013 - 10:41 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 07 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

yeah but its easier to headshot with 1 GR than with 1 ML and faster.

At present, you can easily headshot with any weapon or group of weapons. We do it all the time with 5xLL, 8xML, 2xGR or 2xAC20. With this fix, headshots will really only be happening frequently if you carry big weapons. Advantage big weapon.

Quote

SO I am using pretty basic config on stk-3F(4xML,2xERLL,2xSRM6,2xLRM10,AMS) and I am not allowed to hit same location with my 2xERLL when my 2xERLL doing 3 more dmg than 1xGR and for so much more heat?Thats rly bad.This will force ppl to use one pinpoint hard-hitting weapons(AC20,GR and in future HAG,RAC5,UAC20) over other doing less dmg per weapon but doing more in groups(ERML,ERSL) so it will force them to use specific mechs(jaggermech over swayback) to be succesful so we will be back in same situation...

This made my brain hurt to read. Effectively, yes. Your ERLL will do 8 damage. Your Gauss will do 15 damage. The gauss is a better weapon for doing single point damage. Because it ways 3 times as much and requires ammo. That's the balancing factor. You only get 8 shots per ton with a Gauss. Better make them count.

With this proposal, heat could be normalized to CBT standard. You could actually make 'Mechs that were appropriately heat neutral because without grouped damage, the 9ML HBK-4P would not be ridiculously powerful and doing 45 point alpha strikes every few seconds without ammo concerns.

And yes, the HBK-4P would no longer be the 'best' 'Mech. Who cares. It would still be an INCREDIBLY strong 'Mech that deals a ridiculous amount of continuous damage in the hands of a good pilot who managed their heat and movement to get into position and then chain MLs into the back of an enemy forever....

And then other Mechs wouldn't suck. A 'Mech with 2-3 MLs would actually be dangerous (see the Spider). A 'Mech with 2 MLs and some other weapons wouldn't have to chew through doubled armor.

It's all possible if we let go of the poor design decisions of the MW2-MW4 franchises. Or at least TEST this.

Harabecw, on 07 January 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but during the good old days of MPBT:3025 we had exactly the same problem of pinpoint accuracy alpha destroying mechs (they had normal armor values, Btech style). The devs implemented early on a built in spread for alpha firing, while maintaining accuracy for chain firing. The spread would be like 50% aimed section, 25% for both sections near it.

This solved the problems and we shot each other happily. I still chain-fired cockpits off of mechs with my hunchback P.

I did mention this in the OP. And yes, this is a perfectly reasonable alternative option to reduce the effect of pinpoint alphastrikes breaking the damage/armor model. I think the advantages of cone-of-fire (heat, movement, knock modifiers to the cone size) make it a more 'sim' feel to the fix rather than having damage magically evaporate, but I'd be willing to go with anything that would get us back to the balance we're used to and allow single weapons to compete with groups of weapons.

[Icebound]

For the longest time I think a lot of people thought they were going to do something like raising heat for each weapon fired simultaneously, at least if they're in the same spot.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Giving GR 8 shoots per ton should be balancing factor...but if you can restock them after each match and for free then its kinda pointless .

Icebound, on 07 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

For the longest time I think a lot of people thought they were going to do something like raising heat for each weapon fired simultaneously, at least if they're in the same spot.

It was planned and I still dont know why its not implemented.

[HRR Insanity]

Icebound, on 07 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

For the longest time I think a lot of people thought they were going to do something like raising heat for each weapon fired simultaneously, at least if they're in the same spot.

Doesn't fix the non-laser weapons. Doesn't address the underlying issue which is that ALL weapons combine damage in a pinpoint fashion to break the armor/damage model.

Increased heat for same location would do nothing for the 2xAC20 K2, 2xGR K2 or multiple other future ballistic boats that are coming down the pipe. It's purely a 'nerf the HBK-4P, Jen-D, or laserboat X of the month' fix... which is a symptom.

JudgeDeathCZ, on 07 January 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Giving GR 8 shoots per ton should be balancing factor...but if you can restock them after each match and for free then its kinda pointless .

In game, you just don't have that many shots though. That's the issue. Big weapons are for good pilots/gunners/MechWarriors. If you don't have the skills, don't bring the hardware.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 07 January 2013 - 10:55 PM.

[Icebound]

HRR Insanity, on 07 January 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Doesn't fix the non-laser weapons. Doesn't address the underlying issue which is that ALL weapons do more damage when fired together.

Increased heat for same location would do nothing for the 2xAC20 K2, 2xGR K2 or multiple other future ballistic boats that are coming down the pipe. It's purely a 'nerf the HBK-4P' fix... which is a symptom.



In game, you just don't have that many shots though. That's the issue. Big weapons are for good pilots/gunner/MechWarriors. If you don't have the skills, don't bring the hardware.

Dual AC/20 cat is pretty gimp as it stands so that's fine.

Gauss just needs to have minimum range implemented so it can't be both the best sniper and best brawler. I bought a K2 recently and I'm pretty bad at sniping, but just wading into combat and blasting everyone point blank works just fine, the nerf really did nothing to stop the problem.

Edited by Icebound, 07 January 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[KinLuu]

All mechwarrior games had the same mechanic than MWO.

It is what makes these kind of games skill based. Random spread is a bad idea - and most people wont like it.

So your idea has no chance. Deal with it.

[HRR Insanity]

KinLuu, on 07 January 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

All mechwarrior games had the same mechanic than MWO.

It is what makes these kind of games skill based. Random spread is a bad idea - and most people wont like it.

So your idea has no chance. Deal with it.

You clearly didn't read. It's pin-point accurate if you want it to be. Fire one weapon at a time.

You can also choose to fire alphastrikes/big groups of weapons... and then you're not able to put all the damage on the same panel because your cone of fire is affected by heat, movement, knock, etc.

Your choice, pilot. It's not random.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 07 January 2013 - 11:06 PM.

[Eddrick]

The weapon spread you talk about reminds me of what Chrome Hounds for the X-Box 360 did. Weapon fire would not converge perfectly into the center of the target retical. For example: The Sniper Mech you use in the Sniper Training has two sets of three weapons. One set on the left side and the other set on the right. The weapons on the left would be slightly off to the left of the target retical and vice-versa for the right.

This guarantiees all of your weapons will not hit the same spot if fired at the same time. You would have to adjust aim and fire the other weapon set to have them hit the same spot as the last set did.

[HRR Insanity]

Icebound, on 07 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Dual AC/20 cat is pretty gimp as it stands so that's fine.

Gauss just needs to have minimum range implemented so it can't be both the best sniper and best brawler. I bought a K2 recently and I'm pretty bad at sniping, but just wading into combat and blasting everyone point blank works just fine, the nerf really did nothing to stop the problem.

You can't 'fix' all the weapons to solve this problem. There will ALWAYS be a 'Mech that boats better than the rest. If you gimp one, the next one emerges via natural selection.

Used to be the 4P, then they nerfed MLs, then it was Streakcats and Gaussapults, then they implemented ECM in a mostly overpowered way and made Gauss hyperfragile... and now it's moved on to LL boats and PPC boats (in addition to the smart people still running Guasspults in a coordinated fashion and those using overwhelming ECM to make the Streakpults/Ravens/Commandos boat Streaks).

It's a never ending process of weapon whack-a-mole as long as you let grouped weapons combine damage.

[KinLuu]

HRR Insanity, on 07 January 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

You clearly didn't read. It's pin-point accurate if you want it to be. Fire one weapon at a time.

You can also choose to fire alphastrikes/big groups of weapons... and then you're not able to put all the damage on the same panel because your cone of fire is affected by heat, movement, knock, etc.

Your choice, pilot. It's not random.

Will not happen.

People hate restrictions like that. And PGI can not afford to lose even more customers.

[Critical Fumble]

HRR Insanity, on 07 January 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

You clearly didn't read. It's pin-point accurate if you want it to be. Fire one weapon at a time.

You can also choose to fire alphastrikes/big groups of weapons... and then you're not able to put all the damage on the same panel because your cone of fire is affected by heat, movement, knock, etc.

Your choice, pilot. It's not random.

Its the personal definition of "skill" that's blocking communication. They're limiting skill to tracking a target with the mouse, whereas I'm more inclined to think of skill as including mitigating your chances of missing.

[HRR Insanity]

Eddrick, on 07 January 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

The weapon spread you talk about reminds me of what Chrome Hounds for the X-Box 360 did. Weapon fire would not converge perfectly into the center of the target retical. For example: The Sniper Mech you use in the Sniper Training has two sets of three weapons. One set on the left side and the other set on the right. The weapons on the left would be slightly off to the left of the target retical and vice-versa for the right.

This guarantiees all of your weapons will not hit the same spot if fired at the same time. You would have to adjust aim and fire the other weapon set to have them hit the same spot as the last set did.

/nods/ That was the proposal by one of the others in the thread. I think that model is still susceptible to abuse (some 'Mechs will just have their HPs situated in a way that makes their spread minimal/better), so I was looking for a class solution. Cone of fire doesn't have to deal with that issue and allows for implementation of movement/heat balancing.

[Even Dark]

but something didnt work with this game.

you see it in every game on the dps what you can do with a special setup what mostly ppl use.

my atlas with ac20 and 3 srm6 2 medlasers its a different in dps everey game then a normal setup.

ssrms why must they allways hit the torso and do not split up the damage to all parts of the mech.

finally torsos are too weak in the game? i never lose a arm or a leg on a heavy mech allways the torso is destroyed and that really fast. if your "assault" atlas a 100 tonnage mech, stand in front and lead the attack and will meet a srm6+ medlasers builded stalker the fight ends in 30 seconds . stalker just runs in front of you and shoot 2 times thats it.

all know these mech builds wich are op in the game, you can see the result on the dps after the much and try it self.

[HRR Insanity]

KinLuu, on 07 January 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Will not happen.

People hate restrictions like that. And PGI can not afford to lose even more customers.

I would wager that the # of people who are sticking around through the mild cluster#@!$! that has been the Closed Beta/Open Beta process aren't going to leave now. Especially us die-hards who want to play MechWarrior/BattleTech regardless of the cost.

And imagine all the new players from other games that have cone of fire that will intuitively understand how to make their 'Mechs accuracy improve... Nearly every other online first person shooter implements some variation on cone of fire. That's a huge playerbase to draw on.

[KinLuu]

HRR Insanity, on 07 January 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

I would wager that the # of people who are sticking around through the mild cluster#@!$! that has been the Closed Beta/Open Beta process aren't going to leave now. Especially us die-hards who want to play MechWarrior/BattleTech regardless of the cost.

And imagine all the new players from other games that have cone of fire that will intuitively understand how to make their 'Mechs accuracy improve... Nearly every other online first person shooter implements some variation on cone of fire. That's a huge playerbase to draw on.

You will make a third thread in another six month then.

[HRR Insanity]

Critical Fumble, on 07 January 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Its the personal definition of "skill" that's blocking communication. They're limiting skill to tracking a target with the mouse, whereas I'm more inclined to think of skill as including mitigating your chances of missing.

Agree. Managing heat and slowing down to maximize accuracy at the time of a shot SHOULD be a critical part of gunnery in MechWarrior. It hasn't been so far... but it could be.

Good point.

[Yokaiko]

Icebound, on 07 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Dual AC/20 cat is pretty gimp as it stands so that's fine.

Gauss just needs to have minimum range implemented so it can't be both the best sniper and best brawler. I bought a K2 recently and I'm pretty bad at sniping, but just wading into combat and blasting everyone point blank works just fine, the nerf really did nothing to stop the problem.

K2s never were a problem. The nerf just makes them a lot easier to kill.

The people crying about K2s were almost universally full time assault pilots. Personally I like the three UAC Ily a lot better.