1063 replies to this topic

[shabowie]

Leave convergence in but make it a value you can set manually in weapons lab pregame and then on the fly with a manual control. I've played flight sims that had that.

You might set your medium lasers to converge at 200m, your gauss rifle at 450, your SRM-6 to converge at 135.

Edited by shabowie, 28 February 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

This just in....

The devs announce a patch that makes all your shots hit 50% of the time regardless of where you aim. They are calling it ELO aim.

Now jump back into your twin LRM 20 catapults with 1880 rounds of ammo and no tag. You can compete now.

P.S. If someone manages to hit for more than 50% with ELO aim then they are obviously cheating. Cheaters will be hunted down and have their dominate hand removed. This way if they try to cheat again they have to do it with their opposite hand.

[StalaggtIKE]

Some form of weapon spread is needed more than ever with the arrival of the Poptarts.

[Roland]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Some form of weapon spread is needed more than ever with the arrival of the Poptarts.

First, I haven't really seen jumping cataphracts ever be really efficient compared to other configurations. Back in MW4, it was a common tactic, but it hinged heavily on the netcode being so terrible. Jumping through the air exploited weaknesses in that netcode, as it would generally maximize the difference between where the client showed you, and where the server perceived you being.

Second, weapons spread is not necessary to deal with jumping snipers anyway. You can more easily, and more effectively, deal with with them simply by adding some instability when firing jumpjets.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roland, on 28 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Second, weapons spread is not necessary to deal with jumping snipers anyway. You can more easily, and more effectively, deal with with them simply by adding some instability when firing jumpjets.

Yes. As I said, some form of weapon spread.

[Belorion]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Some form of weapon spread is needed more than ever with the arrival of the Poptarts.

Weapon spread is a missgueded attempt to turn the video game into the table top. If you can't aim, people aren't going to play the game.

[StalaggtIKE]

Belorion, on 28 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Weapon spread is a missgueded attempt to turn the video game into the table top. If you can't aim, people aren't going to play the game.

That all depends on how it is implemented and to what extent. This is simply a suggestion, nothing to get your panties knotted up over.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[Tombstoner]

What we are talking about is a circle of about 1/8 inch on the screen with 2 weapons linked. with more weapon the circle grows to lets say 1/4 inch. with one weapon it becomes a dot with perfect targeting.

A single weapons will always hit where its pointed and needs skill for lasers to always be in the same spot.
with say 4 lasers the circle can grow to be 1/4 inch or the size of an atlas at 700 meters. when the 4 lasers are fired they hit some where in the circle. not all in the same spot. This spread the damage over multiple locations of the target. not controlling if you hit or hot. its not ment to be WOT targeting.

its an armor buff without directly increasing the armor values because that's actually a damage nerf to all weapons.
its a subtly addition to the game that improves survivability by nerfing 6 ppc's or 6 lg lasers or 6 medium lasers. all the damage gets done just not guaranteed to hit the same spot at all ranges.

lets fase it are 4 minute games fun?
is increasing mech survivability bad for the game?

[urmamasllama]

Tombstoner, on 28 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

What we are talking about is a circle of about 1/8 inch on the screen with 2 weapons linked. with more weapon the circle grows to lets say 1/4 inch. with one weapon it becomes a dot with perfect targeting.

A single weapons will always hit where its pointed and needs skill for lasers to always be in the same spot.
with say 4 lasers the circle can grow to be 1/4 inch or the size of an atlas at 700 meters. when the 4 lasers are fired they hit some where in the circle. not all in the same spot. This spread the damage over multiple locations of the target. not controlling if you hit or hot. its not ment to be WOT targeting.

its an armor buff without directly increasing the armor values because that's actually a damage nerf to all weapons.
its a subtly addition to the game that improves survivability by nerfing 6 ppc's or 6 lg lasers or 6 medium lasers. all the damage gets done just not guaranteed to hit the same spot at all ranges.

lets fase it are 4 minute games fun?
is increasing mech survivability bad for the game?

i like this in this way you can hit with all 6 ppcs on a stalker with perfect accuracy... so long as you don't alpha them

[Terror Teddy]

Tombstoner, on 28 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

What we are talking about is a circle of about 1/8 inch on the screen with 2 weapons linked. with more weapon the circle grows to lets say 1/4 inch. with one weapon it becomes a dot with perfect targeting.

A single weapons will always hit where its pointed and needs skill for lasers to always be in the same spot.

And this would be easily exploitable.

With a programmable keyboard you just say X button is for pressing 1-4 to fire my 4 lasers that are NOT in any group.

Essentially the effect would be the same since you are not firing a weapon group but individual guns the same time - i dont think the game would pick that up.

[urmamasllama]

that's pretty easy to fix as well. actually its really easy its called a timer

[Terror Teddy]

urmamasllama, on 28 February 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

that's pretty easy to fix as well. actually its really easy its called a timer

So then you would essentially be CRIPPLING people using weapons in different single configurations like M1 and M2 and cannot fire them at the same time because there has to be a 0,2 second timer or something between shots because otherwise the system thinks they are a weapon group?

Not much of a solution.

[urmamasllama]

actually you basically stated the same point just with different wording so yes i stand by my statement because you are still basically doing an alpha strike even if the weapons are different

[Tombstoner]

its also why the unjamming key sequence for ultra ac-5 was was changed to a timer. macro's
also without a game mechanic to alter whats the use for targeting computers. Because i know some of you don't know the rules MWO is built upon and dosen't mean it has to follow them.

Sarna flavor text
The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.^[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

game mechanics
The Targeting Computer can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons, including most energy and ballistic weapons. This results in a -1 to-hit modifier for all eligible weapons that tie in, or the ability to aim for a location that is not the head with a +3 to-hit penalty. Clan Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up). Total Warfare updated the rules to specify that Pulse Lasers (including Variable Speed Pulse Lasers and X-Pulse Lasers) as well as multi-shot firing autocannon cannot aim their fire, unless the affected autocannon are fired in single shot mode. In addition, an LB-X autocannon only receives the benefits if it is firing solid rounds instead of cluster ammunition.


Without some sort of in game mechanic like a COF what good is it?
Does it become another narc beacon?

[Belorion]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

That all depends on how it is implemented and to what extent. This is simply a suggestion, nothing to get your panties knotted up over.

My panties aren't knotted or in a bunch, its a simple observation of fact. People play video games where they feel they have control over the character.

Convergence is already in the game, and is something you mitigate through the pilot tree. Anything more than that and people will complain, quite a lot. Or they will all calerber up to bigger guns.

It all goes back to people just need to adapt to the way the game is, and stop whinning when they think something is unbalanced. The balance is actually pretty good.

Streakapults, 6-pack Cats, Gaussapults, whatever fotm that may or may not actually confer some advantage is all just trending. If you think they are so op, then roll it. Otherwise play something else and go about your business.

If something is truly unbalanced PGI will be able to tell from the numbers, and it will be adjusted.

Complain less, play more.

[Badconduct]

Mimic aka Viper, on 28 February 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

this thread reminds me of

The argument in this thread is just flawed and not true. Mechwarrior uses the Crysis engine, it is going to be a shooter at heart. You can't make a Sim without changing to a Sim engine. People with better aim are going to do to more damage, no matter what limitations you are on. People who drive better are going to get hit less, regardless of hit zones or group fire.

Point by point.

Quote

Significant deviations from BattleTech canon for weapons (ML, LL, ACs, LRMs, SRMs, etc) including damage/heat making individual weapons weak relative to armor

This is going to be required to balance the game. Battle tech uses numbers, it does not actually fire missles across the map and there is no projectile speed to consider either. I have never played the Tabletop, like most players here.
Obeying the TT rules is the least of my concerns, and I don't really care if people are offended by that.
Game Balance > Source Material

Quote

Armor doubled exacerbating the individual weapon weakness

Increasing armor just makes the game last longer, in theory. There is currently no respawn.
Longer 2 hit Games > short 1 hit games.

Quote

Hardpoints significantly limiting customization (not ideal, but tolerable)

Agreed. This forces the player to use the mech for a designated role. I think this is for the best, otherwise 'Mechs are purely cosmetic. Again.
Game Balance > Source Material

Quote

Large weapons are not powerful (Single AC20 = not dangerous)

I find they are powerful. Not sure where you are getting this.

Quote

Need groups of small weapons to be effective, single ML or SL is basically worthless vs. doubled armor, especially with heat nerf to MLs

Always have been, in every Mechwarrior game. SL and ML are more less filler if you have some free slots. They are more effective against fast moving targets. They are for light 'Mechs. You can't fill all the hardpoints on an assult mech with SL and have 0 tons remaining. This isn't a balance issue, it's just common sense.
Light weapons for light mechs > light weapons for heavy mechs

Quote

Mechs are generally nerfed because small weapons are nerfed (MGs, SLs, MLs, etc) combined with hardpoints.

Explained "Nerfed'? You mean, stock 'Mechs have a disadvantage against custom, specialized 'Mechs that have an extra 2-3 million C'bills pumped into it?
Yes, obviously.
Spending money on customization > Stock and trial 'Mechs

Quote

Grouped weapons dominate the field (2xGR, 2-4xPPC, 3-6xLL, 9xSL, 2xAC20, 4xAC2, 3xUAC5) because individual weapons are weak compared to groups of weapons and vs. double armor.

Yes, that's how you do the most damage. This arguement is completely flawed though. Firing two guns at once is better than firing one, but chain fire has a faster recharge (once you start firing) and more chances to hit.
If you fire 1 group of missles, and they all miss. They all miss. If you chain fire missiles, you can stop firing and continue to fire when the target is back in range.
But I don't get the point here. Group firing is always better, in every mech game. That's how to play the game. You group weapons together and fire them together at the risk of using all your heat and ammo.
Mechwarrior > Call of Duty

Quote

Constant struggles when implementing and balancing new ‘Mechs/variants/weapons (new ‘Mechs need to be hardpoint nerfed to prevent unbalanced grouped weapon configurations such as 3xGR mechs... though they’re coming via CBT canon). The Stalker with it’s 6LL/6PPC is just the most recent issue.

That's not an "Issue", it's a powerful, unbelievably hot and heavy 'Mech that I probably wouldn't recommend driving on a hot map. If it actually hits something and doesn't shut down, I'd be shocked. I don't see a lot of those. I wouldn't use one myself, there is no way to chase light mechs away.
Strategy > Skill.

[Badconduct]

Tombstoner, on 28 February 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

its also why the unjamming key sequence for ultra ac-5 was was changed to a timer. macro's
also without a game mechanic to alter whats the use for targeting computers. Because i know some of you don't know the rules MWO is built upon and dosen't mean it has to follow them.

Sarna flavor text
The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.^[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

game mechanics
The Targeting Computer can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons, including most energy and ballistic weapons. This results in a -1 to-hit modifier for all eligible weapons that tie in, or the ability to aim for a location that is not the head with a +3 to-hit penalty. Clan Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up). Total Warfare updated the rules to specify that Pulse Lasers (including Variable Speed Pulse Lasers and X-Pulse Lasers) as well as multi-shot firing autocannon cannot aim their fire, unless the affected autocannon are fired in single shot mode. In addition, an LB-X autocannon only receives the benefits if it is firing solid rounds instead of cluster ammunition.


Without some sort of in game mechanic like a COF what good is it?
Does it become another narc beacon?

Why don't we just load up two AI teams, and pick the 'Mech we want to bet on. Than we just watch the AI play a balanced game and we get points based on how many points the AI 'Mech gets?

It will be super balance and completely not fun!

Belorion, on 28 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

My panties aren't knotted or in a bunch, its a simple observation of fact. People play video games where they feel they have control over the character.

Convergence is already in the game, and is something you mitigate through the pilot tree. Anything more than that and people will complain, quite a lot. Or they will all calerber up to bigger guns.

It all goes back to people just need to adapt to the way the game is, and stop whinning when they think something is unbalanced. The balance is actually pretty good.

Streakapults, 6-pack Cats, Gaussapults, whatever fotm that may or may not actually confer some advantage is all just trending. If you think they are so op, then roll it. Otherwise play something else and go about your business.

If something is truly unbalanced PGI will be able to tell from the numbers, and it will be adjusted.

Complain less, play more.

Those catapults are annoying and run out of ammo in about 5 minutes. All part of the balance.

[Tombstoner]

Badconduct, on 28 February 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Why don't we just load up two AI teams, and pick the 'Mech we want to bet on. Than we just watch the AI play a balanced game and we get points based on how many points the AI 'Mech gets?

It will be super balance and completely not fun!

Almost like fantasy football??? or just sitting on your but watching sports. Muti million dollar businesses BTW.



Taken from Q/A 32

FrostCollar: Are there plans for other mech electronics that are added in the mechlab and are not modules, such as targeting computers, enhanced comm. equipment, etc?
A: No plans.


Basically i think this statement alone is suficant reason to give up on any chance of better weapon balance, for those people who know TT rules and understand what we are talking bout, because if you don't know TT rules you cant even see the problem. kinda like how a blind man can't appreciate a photograph.

[Pht]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I absolutely despise spread patterns on a weapon that should be precise.

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

You follow it up by insisting that the developers must "add weapon spread or be prepared to suffer MW4-type grouped weapon balance problems indefinitely to the detriment of the game and its longevity." Weapon spread is completely different from "minimizing convergence". The former specifically means (in a video game) that some of your shots are deliberately intended to deviate from where you're aiming, the latter can mean something as simple as taking your weapons extra time to converge upon the precise spot you're aiming at, which would mean if you fire prematurely they'll simply fire wide in a precisely-determined manner - something that could be compensated for by a good pilot. All that being said, you're still trying to solve a non-existent problem.

... and here's probably one of the biggest problems in this dicussion - people using the same words (symbols), but with entirely different meanings.

----

This is why I have been saying that what's wanted is not to have "weapons spread" - a confusing and ambiguous phrase - what's wanted is an actual imitation of how capable a BattleMech is of using it's weapons.

It has nothing to do with making any individual weapon less accurate...

...and just to make it even more clear, when I post accurate, it's in reference to the ability of any single weapon to hit a single point - when I post "precise" it's in reference to the ability of the BattleMech to get any group of weapons to hit a single point...

This whole discussion has everything to do with, again, making the BattleMechs in MWO handle their weapons the same way they do in the Lore.

[Zyllos]

Agreed Pht. It might be a LONG while before PGI comes around to seeing that they are going to have the same issues as all the other MW games in the past.