442 replies to this topic

[chiXnhawk]

The problem is not ECM. Sure it does a little more then expected. But it's not bad. The biggest problem is Ravens , netcode , being the prime culprits of using them. I personally don't use ECM or any of the chasis that use them. My Atlas is forever the RS. But what is needed is different soloutions. So I came up with a few.

1. ECM destructable. Give it 3 HP and even do some pop damage. Like a Gauss. Not as big an explosion of course but make it removable for skilled shots like when dealing with a target with gauss.

2. Give ECM it's own hardpoint if your going to take it. Once you know an enemy has ECM on what chasis , you know where it is and you can work to remove it if you so choose.

3. Make BAP and/or modules do more to counter or decrease the effects of ECM , at least for the person who took all the time to unlock the skills and modules for the mechs they are using. This could be as much as having BAP , Target info and sensor range Modules be able to to be combined to completely nulify ECM. Thus this would bring back mechs that are disapearing because people think they need to bring ECM to counter ECM. Of course BAP should be destructable as well. They should cost weight and critt slots to bring them. That would balance it out some.

4. Of course fixing the netcode would solve 50% of ECM's claim to fame.

If your dead set on bringing weapons that require lock it's always going to be a crap shoot. LRMs will always do better on Caustic then on River city. You will never know if your going to see ECM'd mechs or in the matter of my fixes mechs built to counter those builds.
I think ECM is fine the way it is. I think there should be ways to add to your builds to counter it better and there should be ways to remove it from your enemy in game if your skilled enough ( or lucky enough ) in your shooting.

[Marius Malthus]

chiXnhawk, on 11 January 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

The problem is not ECM. Sure it does a little more then expected. But it's not bad. The biggest problem is Ravens , netcode , being the prime culprits of using them. I personally don't use ECM or any of the chasis that use them. My Atlas is forever the RS. But what is needed is different soloutions. So I came up with a few.

1. ECM destructable. Give it 3 HP and even do some pop damage. Like a Gauss. Not as big an explosion of course but make it removable for skilled shots like when dealing with a target with gauss.

2. Give ECM it's own hardpoint if your going to take it. Once you know an enemy has ECM on what chasis , you know where it is and you can work to remove it if you so choose.

3. Make BAP and/or modules do more to counter or decrease the effects of ECM , at least for the person who took all the time to unlock the skills and modules for the mechs they are using. This could be as much as having BAP , Target info and sensor range Modules be able to to be combined to completely nulify ECM. Thus this would bring back mechs that are disapearing because people think they need to bring ECM to counter ECM. Of course BAP should be destructable as well. They should cost weight and critt slots to bring them. That would balance it out some.

4. Of course fixing the netcode would solve 50% of ECM's claim to fame.

If your dead set on bringing weapons that require lock it's always going to be a crap shoot. LRMs will always do better on Caustic then on River city. You will never know if your going to see ECM'd mechs or in the matter of my fixes mechs built to counter those builds.
I think ECM is fine the way it is. I think there should be ways to add to your builds to counter it better and there should be ways to remove it from your enemy in game if your skilled enough ( or lucky enough ) in your shooting.

i totally agree. it should be possible to shoot ecm. it's just equipment.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 10 January 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

I had a chance to drop with a 4 man last night, and it was a good experience. We had a group member who enjoys playing a catapult so I put the TAG back on my Craven 3L. It was great against assaults, heavies and mediums, but against lights it was touch and go.

Frankly I also can't recommend putting TAG on a mech that doesn't have ECM itself since the relaying is broken when by ECM - a bit like a fire extinguisher that bursts into flames if it comes within sight of a fire. Not quite that bad, but you get the idea.

Also, to keep it on a fast moving light you have to be *in* a fast moving light.

TLDR; if you have a lobby to coordinate in, voice comm to call fire in, and competent team mates TAG is good, but you will still need a Raven 3L or cicada 3M, or commando 2D to reliably get the targeting info back to where it needs to be when dealing with another ECM mech. Otherwise it's just too easy for a competent enemy to cut your data relay.

Disagree here about TAG and ECM. Playing with a unit together I switched to Stalker to level up the tree. If your team is divided into a front and back team, then you can carry TAG as well and firing LRMs from behind. TAG helps guiding the missiles into the enemy and you make enough damage to allow your front team to finish the rest. During the fights we did not have any ECM mechs because everybody was leveling their pilot tree.

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 11 January 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Disagree here about TAG and ECM. Playing with a unit together I switched to Stalker to level up the tree. If your team is divided into a front and back team, then you can carry TAG as well and firing LRMs from behind. TAG helps guiding the missiles into the enemy and you make enough damage to allow your front team to finish the rest. During the fights we did not have any ECM mechs because everybody was leveling their pilot tree.

I'm glad to hear it worked out well - how far apart did you generally keep the team members?

Maybe I should revise my statement to "If you're worried about ECM.... etc." Rather than putting it as an absolute must.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 11 January 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

I'm glad to hear it worked out well - how far apart did you generally keep the team members?

Maybe I should revise my statement to "If you're worried about ECM.... etc." Rather than putting it as an absolute must.

I was "stalking" only a field or one and a half field behind them and watched out that I was not flanked or an enemy mech was at my back. In one scenario I made a mistake and we went through tunnel. This was to my diasadvantage because I was not able to rain LRM during tunnel combat.

By the way, it is still possible to rain LRM, but I really advise/suggest to look for fixed unit. This makes everything a lot easier. Regardless of the ECM issue or not.

ECM is just a big support system but as soon as you are in a combat group and you follow target order, not even ECM can protect or jam effectively the amount of incoming damage.

Edited by StUffz, 11 January 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 11 January 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I was "stalking" only a field or one and a half field behind them and watched out that I was not flanked or an enemy mech was at my back. In one scenario I made a mistake and we went through tunnel. This was to my diasadvantage because I was not able to rain LRM during tunnel combat.

By the way, it is still possible to rain LRM, but I really advise/suggest to look for fixed unit. This makes everything a lot easier. Regardless of the ECM issue or not.

ECM is just a big support system but as soon as you are in a combat group and you follow target order, not even ECM can protect or jam effectively the amount of incoming damage.

Ironically LRM bombardment is not affected by the hiding of the enemy paper doll, so yeah that's quite true - if you get and hold a lock on an exposed mech he's a dead man.

I would still prefer to have ECM soft counter LRMs then tone down their damage so lag shielded lights would have to hit and run rather than circle strafing.

[Takeo]

chiXnhawk, on 11 January 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

The problem is not ECM. Sure it does a little more then expected. But it's not bad. The biggest problem is Ravens , netcode , being the prime culprits of using them. I personally don't use ECM or any of the chasis that use them. My Atlas is forever the RS. But what is needed is different soloutions. So I came up with a few.

1. ECM destructable. Give it 3 HP and even do some pop damage. Like a Gauss. Not as big an explosion of course but make it removable for skilled shots like when dealing with a target with gauss.

2. Give ECM it's own hardpoint if your going to take it. Once you know an enemy has ECM on what chasis , you know where it is and you can work to remove it if you so choose.

3. Make BAP and/or modules do more to counter or decrease the effects of ECM , at least for the person who took all the time to unlock the skills and modules for the mechs they are using. This could be as much as having BAP , Target info and sensor range Modules be able to to be combined to completely nulify ECM. Thus this would bring back mechs that are disapearing because people think they need to bring ECM to counter ECM. Of course BAP should be destructable as well. They should cost weight and critt slots to bring them. That would balance it out some.

4. Of course fixing the netcode would solve 50% of ECM's claim to fame.

If your dead set on bringing weapons that require lock it's always going to be a crap shoot. LRMs will always do better on Caustic then on River city. You will never know if your going to see ECM'd mechs or in the matter of my fixes mechs built to counter those builds.
I think ECM is fine the way it is. I think there should be ways to add to your builds to counter it better and there should be ways to remove it from your enemy in game if your skilled enough ( or lucky enough ) in your shooting.

Totally agree with this. I run ECM Mechs but I like the idea of the ability to destroy the ECM, or knocking it out. LOVE this idea.

My 2 cents on this with the 4 ECM Ravens (or 4 ECM lights) is when you have 4 ECM lights and then 3 ECM Atlas'. They need to put a Weight Minimum and Max for the drops so when you are in an 8 man group it will be hard to do. When I do 8 man drops I enjoy them but stinks when I am the only light mech going up against 4 ECM light mechs, I always get killed with in 60 seconds.

Edited by Takeo, 11 January 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 11 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Not to mention - oh wait I already did - that said light packs existed prior to ECM and will continue to exist, period.

One of MW:O's things that PGI wanted was to make it so that - unlike past MW games - any weight class could be viable in combat. Used to be that people only played lights for as long as it took to earn a better beefier mech. Anyone who played a light beyond that was some kind o' crazy. Not nearly as effective to do that then as it is now, so basically what this tin foil hatter is griping about is PGI has accomplished one of their goals.

So, gratz to PGI, and a big LOL for the tin foil hatter.

A few posts back you said "first it was jenners, now its ravens", and yet now you are suggesting that ECM makes light mechs viable? Light mechs have always been plenty viable.

mechwarrior is about radar. ECM removes radar from the game. mechwarrior is now simply counterstrike with mechs.

Since LRMS need a TAG LOS and cant breach cover and track and do damage as if they where SSRMS this gameplay is further emphasized.

I dont understand your comment with previous mech games, light mechs where extremely viable in both mech3 and mech4. I never had issues running lights vs other mechs. Nor did I have issues pre-ecm in MWO running light mechs.

Radar was already iffy before ECM. Now, this game is thermal vision counter strike or take an ECM mech if you want to use ssrms, and even then they might be worthless in the fight if you are out ecmed.

Pray tell do give an example of another video game where a company inserts a new component, extends that components abilities WAY beyond the actual reference manual, sees full teams starts everyone using that component or moving to direct fire, and then says "this is working as intended".

I guess maybe a lot of us are in the wrong game here. All that "Radar" in mech2,3,4 & btech:3025 is so 1990's.

Who played those mech games anyhow?

If I gave you a gun and said "this gun works against everything except ECM mechs, and then I gave you another gun and said "this gun always works" well, what kind of ***** would take the first gun?

[Koniving]

HiplyRustic, on 10 January 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

As near as I can tell, you just posted an admission to a bannable offense.

Would using Ravens 3-Ls, which clearly have the strongest and most impenetrable lag shields, not be its own bannable offense as an exploit of a clear and obvious problem?

[Strengar]

Wow. This is getting worse than old.

I drive a Raven and Jenner. I haven't brought myself to pilot a Commando yet although I've seen some really awesome Commando pilots.

What is funny is that I've been in many matches where I've ran all over the place and other matches where someone took me out real quick.
Also I've looked at the ping that is showing in the game and it has been from people with low ping and high ping.
So the question is those who are complaining about lights and ECM do you really know how to play your mech?

I'm starting to see people bring in non-ECM lights again and those lights are starting to do better than before. The question is why?..............Change of weaponry and tactics.

When I pilot my jenner I no longer use the SSRMs I use SRM4s. Instead of my freaking out how I can't use lock on missile systems because of ECM I changed how and when I launch the missiles. Guess what? I had a few matches where I burned up many missile misses because my mindset was on SSRMs.

Live and learn.

Find the people who know how to take out the lights and ask them how they are doing it.
Everyone gets lucky shots but there is some real skill out there.

As another person stated above even when this "lagshield" gets taken care of the light pilots are going to figure out how to keep their mechs in the match without the "lagshield".

I run what Tolkien posted above in my Raven but I started working on adding something else and that is using the standard game zoom to target areas of the enemy that has critical damage.

This is hard to do because speed perception changes the close you zoom in and at 150.2 kps that is a significant change.

I've taken out assaults that have had critical torso damage and little damage to the rest of their mech because zooming in brings the target area closer and helps you pin point the target zone.

I haven't fully decided if this is still a worthwhile tactic but I'm learning it is time and place. I would not suggest trying it in River City while in the buildings...........smile. That ends badly.............for little guy/girl.

[Koniving]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

If I gave you a gun and said "this gun works against everything except ECM mechs, and then I gave you another gun and said "this gun always works" well, what kind of ***** would take the first gun?

Same is true about the 'Mechs.

They give you the most usable variants of all the ECM capable chassis.

Commando 2-D has the most missile launchers out of the 4 variants. Why use one of the two borked 2-M 2-E builds, or the already completely unused 1-B variant with 1-M and 3-E? Brilliant idea, to make all of the builds viable, PUT THE ECM ON THE 1-B!!!!

Cicada 3-M is the most expensive cbill-wise, but the most "usable" Cicada in terms of a balance between weight, damage, and weapons. Here, honestly, ECM could go on any of them.

The Raven 3-L is already the top of its prime with 2 missile launchers and the NARC launcher makes its left-arm streaks extra accurate. Even without ECM people would always have the 3-L. Or they would have the 4X (jumpjets, ballistics). No one in their right mind would field a 2-X if they didn't have to. No one will ever keep it either. Solution? ECM on 2X. Suddenly it has value.

The Atlas DDC has 3 missile launchers, which means 3 streaks and two ballistics. So we gave it ECM. Why use anything else? All you do is con yourself out of anything else. Other variants make you lose lasers, or make you lose a ballistic, or a missile to have an extra AMS (pfft, who needs AMS now?). Solution? Put ECM on the unconfirmed Atlas variant that no one would want (because it has only 1 missile slot).

Bam! ECM's suddenly a lot more balanced because it's not on the most powerful 'Mech variants of their chassis.

Guess what else we did? We just made all of their worst variants into viable, functional Battlemechs that people will buy and want. O_O I'm a genius!

[Satori Komeiji]

Brown Hornet, on 10 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

When netcode is fixed and KD reintroduced I'll re-evaluate my position on ECM. I'd like ECM to also interfere with allied targeting just as it does for the enemy. It should be a double-edged sword.

While I do agree that there should be some malus for ECM, I feel that the penalty should be localized to the mech that's carrying it and not to the rest of their team, because I feel that it's pretty annoying to get hosed or negatively affected by something your teammate brought when you have no control over what they put in their mech.

[JayVrb]

VXJaeger, on 10 January 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

ECM-Atlas however is so BIG and slow that you can hit them. They are very hazardous things to cross, but not a real "problem" unless there's many of them.

Based on this logic, the inherit problem is with ECM PLUS Light Mechs/Netcode. I would much rather run into 1 ECM Atlas than 1 ECM Raven or Commando. Period.

[StUffz]

Brown Hornet, on 10 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

When netcode is fixed and KD reintroduced I'll re-evaluate my position on ECM. I'd like ECM to also interfere with allied targeting just as it does for the enemy. It should be a double-edged sword.

Nope, better is if ECM hits ECM, it negates meaning rendered useless. And this effect should not stack, meaning more mechs with ECM will not overwrite the negation.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Vrbas, on 11 January 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

I would much rather run into 1 ECM Atlas than 1 ECM Raven or Commando. Period.

Let's be honest here, all Commandos, even ECM ones are a joke to kill.

The Space Pope knows of no mech that is as easy to kill regardless of what he is piloting(barring a mech carrying only LRMs perhaps).

Edited by Merlevade, 11 January 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[JayVrb]

Something tells me if the Atlas was the only mech capable of mounting ECM, it would not be receiving this much backlash from the community. Call me "Dur Dur" for stating the obvious but ya know, whatever.

[Sandslice]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 11 January 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Sandslice, Most of that post is either repetition of stuff that's been said already, or rather repeated before, OR is somewhat accurate. On the other hand... ECM prevents people from learning? WHAT?! Seriously? Have you NEVER seen an ECM using 'mech die? EVER? Because I gaurantee you they die just fine.

Death in video games is a great teacher, and if people can't learn from THAT, then they don't belong here in the first place.

I'm aware that much of it is repetition. If I can clarify what I mean by "ECM prevents people from learning," it's this.

TL;DR: ECM is a major cause of the Raven becoming fotm. By itself, as well as with other game mechanical issues, it has created a metagame that discourages learning sound light-piloting doctrines.


1. As with Atlai, the perceived strength of ECM has caused people to "flock" to the Streak heroes (keep in mind that they could Streak even before ECM, yet apparently it was the Jenner that was fotm); generally, you see non-ECM Commandos and Ravens while they're going for efficiency unlocks (and the Raven currently enjoys the advantage of having the 2x as a trial, so you can bypass the purchase.) Either that, or because they don't know better or are trying to be "better than that."

2. Because Streak heroes cap their speed, you must, simply to have a glimmer of hope. Don't be fooled. 113.4 kph is free to a Streak hero, yet capping basically requires the biggest XLE, more than doubling the cost of your 'Mech as well as its vulnerability (not that lights do well in that department to start with.)

3. Even doing so, you won't be faster unless you have speed tweak and they don't, which means that the "flight" portion of the fight-or-flight dilemma is dictated for you... as is the tactic (being forced into a tactically unsound circle dance because that's what *they* want to do.)

4. Which brings us back to the ECM, which dictates your weapon choices: since you can't Streak without having friendly ECM, you are constrained to use unguided and generally channelled weapons (lasers and pulse lasers) at relative velocities ranging from about 3kph to over 300, against something that is not where you see it to be - and not always where you just found it two weapon cooldowns ago. Or to join the Dark Side and use ECM yourself.

All this goes against learning good light play.
(Edit, finishing this thought.)
Having to account for ECM includes leaving BAP off, since ECM > BAP; this reduces scouting to turning the corner and hoping they're not looking at it, since there are no other non-LoS sensors in MWO, let alone any that can either defeat or at least betray ECM (by revealing the edge of its bubble, for example.)

Having to account for ECM on Streak heroes sharply limits your construction and tactical options for combat.

As for learning from death: dying to LRMs teaches you to be more aware of terrain / cover options. Dying to something like a Streak Cat teaches you to be more patient and aware of relative range combat. Dying to a big Stalker Alpha teaches you that "crossing the T" isn't necessarily a good idea. However, dying to an ECM Streak hero only teaches you to join the club.
You can't learn evasive manoeuvres against something that is faster (especially in MWO, where all aspects of agility are linked to top speed.) You can't learn sound tactical play against things that can force you to either give them your back or noob-circle.

Edited by Sandslice, 11 January 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Big Bad Wulf]

Inertiaman, on 11 January 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

They'd be far easier to LRM though.

You do realize that if you can easily LRM light mechs it also goes for other mechs as well?

Poor you, missing blasting mechs to bits while hardly doing anything? Ah the good lod days...

Do you also realize that the ECM complaints do not have data to back them up unlike the "Artemis" incident which clearly showed that the complaints were valid. The ECM's effectivity is dependent on the pilot, so one can build Tolkien's "CRaven" but unless you are as good a pilot as he is, you are most likely to die,

The drops are still varried you do not see an over abundamce of ECM carrying mechs nor has it snuffed out LRM mechs, you know what now that I think about it there are more LRM mechs per game.

So ECM is broken because it is more difficult for you the use your LRM's... nice one

[Inertiaman]

You have replied to that first quote entirely out of context and aren't really making much sense.

The rest - well I'd love to play mwo on the planet you appear to be dropping on.

[Koniving]

I agree.