442 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I think the most annoying thing is I did my first group a few days ago. Very competant players. We stuck together and focused fire. But none of us used ECM mechs.

First few matches were a breeze, know why? Either the opposing team didn't have ECM, or their ECM was one of those "solo" light mechs who did not really help his team.

The matches where we were running into multiple ECM's that stuck together? We were getting owned. I don't know if they were 4 mans or not, but it was amazing how different the games were just due to one item.

[StalaggtIKE]

warp103, on 08 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Repost from today from Garth and Me.

Ok to all about ECM. After a long conversation with Garth. I see the problem as to why there is no comment on ECM.

The dev do not see the issue. Now I will not go in to all the detail about his comments. But they are pointing to how they fair in the twitch games. They do not use ECM and win most of the time.. And they are only seeing in stats 8v8 game 4 ecm's max. So the only thing that I can say is Video video video. Get TS because is what they us in the twitch games. I do not agree with him but I have respect that I got info.

I know that you want me to post the Answer that I got. Sorry I can not If he wishes he can tell me I can post then I will.

OH and Tolken, I did post your stats and finding you have. As well as the stat and videos I have of my own. More Pointing to their on play.

So again the all need to post how bad it is so they will have a visual. Video if possible so it goes around the web. As to the Boycott. I was going to be part of it since there was no Answers. Well i got Answers I do not like them but I did get them.

This is absurd. If they really see no problem then why isn't ECM available for all mechs? Why should my team succumb to SSRMs and LRM, just because everyone wanted to be creative and not use one of the same 4 mechs.

[Thorqemada]

The ******* ECM is making a ******* comeback now with ******* groups that ******* synchdrop into ******* pug matches that be no ******* fun anymore that way!
I go ******* abuse the ******* ECM myself very soon or stop playing at all - ECM TO HELL!

PS: Yesterday you could hit lights quite well with lasers but it seems it was more a low traffic thing bcs today i search a ******* point to aim and i dont find it at any lead distance and with ECM they have the only reliable anti light weapon exclusive to themself and i realy have a growing hate toward that sort of balance.

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 January 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

I just had an epiphany: LosTech.

Notice how battles are more primitive now? Most battles are in your face brawling skirmishes; consisting of mostly lasers, ballistics and SRM. ECM is effectively taking smart weapons out of the game. So instead of PGI removing guided weapons and causing rage from lack of content, they introduced something that would make "smart" tech undesirable. Mind you the cause isn't canon, however the effect is, somewhat.
....

Nevermind, it's early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet.

[Noth]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I just had an epiphany: LosTech.

Notice how battles are more primitive now? Most battles are in your face brawling skirmishes; consisting of mostly lasers, ballistics and SRM. ECM is effectively taking smart weapons out of the game. So instead of PGI removing guided weapons and causing rage from lack of content, they introduced something that would make "smart" tech undesirable. Mind you the cause isn't canon, however the effect is, somewhat.
....

Nevermind, it's early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet.

Kind of falls apart when Lostech like GRs are uneffected and non lostech weapons like LRMs are completely nullified.

[Captain Commander]

ECM remains absolutly broken. It only hides the fact that LRM and SSRM without it are grossly overpowered. I just about to refuse to use any mech without ECM, it's not viable, it's not remotly fun.

[Noth]

Captain Commander, on 09 January 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

ECM remains absolutly broken. It only hides the fact that LRM and SSRM without it are grossly overpowered. I just about to refuse to use any mech without ECM, it's not viable, it's not remotly fun.

At least LRMs and SSRMs can be countered with Cover (LRMs) longer range (SSRMs) and LOS (both)

[StUffz]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

This is absurd. If they really see no problem then why isn't ECM available for all mechs? Why should my team succumb to SSRMs and LRM, just because everyone wanted to be creative and not use one of the same 4 mechs.

As a standard reply I would say that not every mech is designed to be a Scout with EW or a mobile Command HQ.

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I just had an epiphany: LosTech.

Notice how battles are more primitive now? Most battles are in your face brawling skirmishes; consisting of mostly lasers, ballistics and SRM. ECM is effectively taking smart weapons out of the game. So instead of PGI removing guided weapons and causing rage from lack of content, they introduced something that would make "smart" tech undesirable. Mind you the cause isn't canon, however the effect is, somewhat.
....

Nevermind, it's early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet.

As if battles in the books were different. We aren't playing MC.

Just a sidenote. I ran with a fixed group yesterday and I was able to fire LRMs with no problem. I think the portion of fixed groups also decides if you can run with LRM or not. I did not have problems to fire and that is because we had fixed tasks during combat.

Edited by StUffz, 09 January 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[PPO Kuro]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

At least LRMs and SSRMs can be countered with Cover (LRMs) longer range (SSRMs) and LOS (both)

Exactly my thought about LRM's and SSRM's. You don't bloody need ECM, it's called use cover!

[StalaggtIKE]

StUffz, on 09 January 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

As a standard reply I would say that not every mech is designed to be a Scout with EW or a mobile Command HQ.

Too bad that scouts aren't performing as scouts. Now they're used as brawler escorts. What good is a stealth umbrella if you're leaving your team behind?

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Kind of falls apart when Lostech like GRs are uneffected and non lostech weapons like LRMs are completely nullified.

Hey, I admitted I haven't had my coffee yet!
You are right, however like I said before it's not so much the method, but the results. Being that the game is regressing to a brawlfest, I imagine few would want to bring a glass cannon to such a fight. LRM is still here just without the guidance of C3 radar system. The name of the game is hitting hard and quick, so a lot of heavy AC and lasers. XL engines are a liability in close range. ECM has made BAP and NARC useless. And AMS is now generally obsolete.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 09 January 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Jukebox1986]

Besides the Fact, that ECM is still overpowered, i dont get the rant over LRM´s. I run an 4xLRM15 Stalker when i go in 8-man matches as well as going 4-man or simply going alone.

My average damage is 700. Sometimes its just 400, sometimes its 1000+ but i never had a problem since TAG has gotten 750 m range. I just dont get it.

My advice to the Dev´s would be splitting the Power of ECM more. Like:

Mode 1 - the bubble
Hides everyone in Range of 180 Meters from Radar and getting locked on by LRM´s and streaks, but if your inside the Bubble, it has no effect on you anymore. Counter = Tag

Mode 2 - dirupt enemy lock at short range
Every mech inside the 180m bubble loses its ability to lock, loses its radar and gets interferences. Counter = Narc (narced targets gets a "can always get locked on"for a short time)

Mode 3 - counter
Counters the nearest two targets with ECM inside 180 m. counter = none

This would make a huge difference in playing with ecm. You can hide, you can disrupt, but you need to play different. Counter needs to get stronger, or ECM en masse will still be the way to go for everyone. It makes sure that even with less ECM, you can still nullify the opponments ECM. ECM would need to be played a lot smarter than now.

Edited by Janus Wealth, 09 January 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Buffing NARC may sound like a good idea, however it will need a solid counter. Imagine being hit by a NARC and for the rest of the game have missiles coming after you. That would be HUGE! You would effectively be taken out of the game as you will always be tracked. So yeah NARC must either:

• have a timed duration (fairly small)
  
• be neutralized by ECM's disrupt bubble (this is canon)
  
• require los (stupid imo; just kind of defeats the purpose

That being said, I would like for NARC to get a buff in speed and range.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 09 January 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[Jukebox1986]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Buffing NARC may sound like a good idea, however it will need a solid counter. Imagine being hit by a NARC and for the rest of the game have missiles coming after you. That would be HUGE! You would effectively be taken out of the game as you will always be tracked. So yeah NARC must either:

• have a timed duration (fairly small)
  
• be neutralized by ECM's disrupt bubble (this is canon)
  
• require los (stupid imo; just kind of defeats the purpose

That being said, I would like for NARC to get a buff in speed and range.

Of course in a short duration of time. im sorry, i didnt make that clear.

[Twisted Power]

If you don’t want to read the wall of txt just read the last line:

I used to play every day in tons of mechs, then ECM came out, and I’m not going to play mechs that don't work so I played the 5-7 that function. They are mastered now and I would like to play something like a hunchback. But they blow when compared to my other mechs. So I now play like twice a week instead of like 2-3 hours a day. And by like twice a week I play like one match and go "O yea this is why I don't play anymore" and stop playing.

Don't get me wrong, I win the match, or (and i have tons of Screen shots) I play at the top or second even though we lose (so it is like wining because it is the same money). I have plenty of games where my ECM raven has 3-4 kill and we lose. But it is no longer fun.


If you try and construct a meta game through items like ECM and force gameplay you will limit all other gameplay and take away everything that is fun about mech warrior, customization.

[StalaggtIKE]

Twisted Power, on 09 January 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

If you try and construct a meta game through items like ECM and force gameplay you will limit all other gameplay and take away everything that is fun about mech warrior, customization.

Well said. Allow me to emphasise the most important part:

customization

customization

customization

customization


One ECM on the battlefield means someone else must either equip TAG or ECM. Builds that are not limiting themselves to lasers, ballistics and SRM are potentially a liability for the team.

[Twisted Power]

Well at least somebody understands I hope PGI reads this.

[MaxllmuS]

More i play more i think ECM not OP. Its need some changes but not great. Little fix there little here etc. With all this tagon the field its ok to make you lrm in team not useles.
So now i think ECM only counter ssrm lovers,so its good thing.

[Skeletor9000]

Malzel, on 08 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I can understand where that list looks intimidating or unbalancing on paper, but I don't feel it's as unbalanced as you feel it is in practice. To reply to the individual items:

I, II, III, and IV: These are all small perks and bonuses, not required systems. Missiles still work perfectly fine against TAGged targets, and the small clustering bonus provided by TAG, NARC, or Artemis isn't going to suddenly pull a win out of a loss. BAP is countered, yes, but I find BAP's actual usefulness to be questionable in the first place, so it's loss is not a great one.

IX is largely cosmetic, like the cockpit shake from missles. It's annoying, yes, and it does complicate situational awareness, but can be countered with an ounce of effort and teamwork on behalf of the players. If I pay attention to where my team is when the ECM starts, I can still fight with the same effectiveness until I can get out of it and re-assess, and if I'm actually communicating with my team, then this obstacle is easily surmounted.

X and XI: It's better than AMS for the handful of mechs that can mount it, if that's what you mean, but that doesn't nullify the need for AMS on other mechs by any reasonable standard. Also, the damage from an AMS explosion is laughable, so I don't consider that a real balancing factor.

XII: Neither do BAP, Artemis, TAG, or NARC, most of the systems that it counters. Nor does AMS generate heat when it counters missiles. Seems fair to me.

XIII: Modules are "free" boosts that occupy no space or weight on the mech, they're not comparable.

XIV: Why does this matter? If it's possible to mount 2 ECMs to double your ECM effect, then I agree this is a problem and mechs need an "ECM hardpoint" like AMS has, but I don't think it works that way. As is, it's just a non-weapon system with a weapon counter, just like AMS is the non-weapon counter to missiles, a weapon. Variety is the spice of life.

So, all in all, I feel that the list of valid complaints can be shortened to:

i) Destroys LRM locks (Without TAG lock, which is hard)
ii) Destroys SSRM locks (Without TAG lock, which is hard)
iii) Ruins information sharing via minimap

iv) Counters other ECMs

As these are the only far-reaching effects of ECM that actually nullify the other teams fighting capability. These obstacles, though, present more dynamic combat scenarios than we had before ECM's introduction, which largely consisted of hiding from the LRM rain from LRM boats that often couldn't even see us, and SRMs being largely ignored in favor of SSRMs, (Because why wouldn't you use a weapon that never misses?) so I welcome that tactical variety to the game. And given that all of those effects must be turned off for it to actually counter another ECM (iv), and only at close range, that seems like a fair trade to me.

The only thing I really feel needs to change is that a target painted with a TAG needs to be target-able instantly. As is, the 1-3 second delay in actually acquiring the target makes the TAG counter less effective than it should be.

Malzel, I feel like you've summarized this so well it deserves its own thread. I hope you'll take the time to start an "ECM supporters" thread where the mechanic can be discussed rationally rather than the sort of "boycott!" tirades that seem to infect these threads. With the introduction of some larger maps, I imagine we'll start seeing a lot more TAG lasers which, once the NETCODE is fixed, should be an effective counter (even more effective if they remove the target delay as you suggested). It's been said before, but it bears repeating: ECM isn't the problem. Lag-shield and no-collision-netcode is the problem. Once I'm able to knock that Raven or Commando on it's shiny metal *** for major damage, the lack of streak missile lock on him isn't going to be as problematic.

[Bad Andy]

Quote

If I play, and I am playing less and less of a game I wanted to play more and more of.

[Riddler9884]

Malzel, on 08 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I can understand where that list looks intimidating or unbalancing on paper, but I don't feel it's as unbalanced as you feel it is in practice. To reply to the individual items:

I, II, III, and IV: These are all small perks and bonuses, not required systems. Missiles still work perfectly fine against TAGged targets, and the small clustering bonus provided by TAG, NARC, or Artemis isn't going to suddenly pull a win out of a loss. BAP is countered, yes, but I find BAP's actual usefulness to be questionable in the first place, so it's loss is not a great one.

IX is largely cosmetic, like the cockpit shake from missles. It's annoying, yes, and it does complicate situational awareness, but can be countered with an ounce of effort and teamwork on behalf of the players. If I pay attention to where my team is when the ECM starts, I can still fight with the same effectiveness until I can get out of it and re-assess, and if I'm actually communicating with my team, then this obstacle is easily surmounted.

X and XI: It's better than AMS for the handful of mechs that can mount it, if that's what you mean, but that doesn't nullify the need for AMS on other mechs by any reasonable standard. Also, the damage from an AMS explosion is laughable, so I don't consider that a real balancing factor.

XII: Neither do BAP, Artemis, TAG, or NARC, most of the systems that it counters. Nor does AMS generate heat when it counters missiles. Seems fair to me.

XIII: Modules are "free" boosts that occupy no space or weight on the mech, they're not comparable.

XIV: Why does this matter? If it's possible to mount 2 ECMs to double your ECM effect, then I agree this is a problem and mechs need an "ECM hardpoint" like AMS has, but I don't think it works that way. As is, it's just a non-weapon system with a weapon counter, just like AMS is the non-weapon counter to missiles, a weapon. Variety is the spice of life.

So, all in all, I feel that the list of valid complaints can be shortened to:

i) Destroys LRM locks (Without TAG lock, which is hard)
ii) Destroys SSRM locks (Without TAG lock, which is hard)
iii) Ruins information sharing via minimap

iv) Counters other ECMs

As these are the only far-reaching effects of ECM that actually nullify the other teams fighting capability. These obstacles, though, present more dynamic combat scenarios than we had before ECM's introduction, which largely consisted of hiding from the LRM rain from LRM boats that often couldn't even see us, and SRMs being largely ignored in favor of SSRMs, (Because why wouldn't you use a weapon that never misses?) so I welcome that tactical variety to the game. And given that all of those effects must be turned off for it to actually counter another ECM (iv), and only at close range, that seems like a fair trade to me.

The only thing I really feel needs to change is that a target painted with a TAG needs to be target-able instantly. As is, the 1-3 second delay in actually acquiring the target makes the TAG counter less effective than it should be.

I completely agree!

Unless the problem worse in other areas because of time zone differences (different players with completely different styles) or lag being considerably more horrible in other parts of this planet, I don't see what all the QQ is about. As I read somewhere else if you deploy in a group with defined roles you can still fire LRM's.

Why is there soo much QQ about this? I came to 2 conclusions:

1. People can’t distinguish friendly Mechs.
People are just upset that the convenience pressing R is not there. You don't have have that feature in any other game, unless it’s a third person action adventure game. Press left trigger to lock...
I understand this problem, and maybe that is what the Devs should try and fix a way to tell friendly Mechs from Enemy Mechs.

2. People are upset because they can’t abuse LRM or SSRM’s.
They got too used to relying on those weapons that they don’t want to try mixing it up. Put a laser, gauss rifle or auto cannon in your Mech and L2P.

Call this game whatever you want, in the end you are shooting using a system modeled out of what almost everyone can agree on is a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. In most shooters that I know of there is no way to put a square around the enemy and only very few include a weapon that can be shot around obstacles and still hit the enemy.

The last time I had a square over an enemy with an fps HUD was in a flight simulator, and flying the thing was a pain in the rear. If you are going to argue this is a simulator too, then my answer is Mechs can stand still, jets only stop when they are parked or dropping like a rock.

Also, I started playing in this game after whole ECM debacle started. The first mech I owned was AS7 D with 2x LRM 20, I only got a tag a week after the December patch and I don't see why people insist this game is so broken with current state of ECM.

I would be more upset about teams sync dropping or abusing the matchmaking system so coordinated teams can use other players not linked over VoIP as target practice.

Edited by Riddler9884, 09 January 2013 - 09:31 AM.