87 replies to this topic

[Xandralkus]

Revo13, on 13 January 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Without ECM people will only run missile boats, again.

You obviously missed the gigantic, bold, italicized text regarding the fix to missiles. So, to quote myself:

Xandralkus, on 12 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

The solution to limitless application of LRM indirect fire was to apply a 50-70% missile spread penalty on any target that the firing mech does not have line of sight to.

Indirect fire was the massive saving grace of missileboats, and the reason they became so overwhelmingly prominent in the first place. A change to ECM that makes it not overpowered MUST ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY OCCUR with a LRM indirect-fire nerf.

Xandralkus, on 12 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

The solution to LRM's being used in a direct-fire configuration with line of sight, where they can actually hurt things, was for the victim pilot to begin SHOOTING the LRM boats.

Direct-LOS-fired LRM's have never been a problem, because the user incurs some risk by LRM'ing things to pieces. The counter to direct-fire LRM's is to whack the LRM user with something better (AKA, something which does not spread the damage everywhere randomly). Forcing people to manually acquire line of sight to apply statistically significant damage forces them to engage in a risk-reward scenario, where in order to apply damage, they must open themselves to attack.

By making direct-fire LRM's the most effective way to use LRM's, and indirect-fire LRM use a much less effective and highly ammunition-intensive undertaking, this fixes the issue of missileboats becoming autowin platforms.

The devs need to stop inventing new problems in order to fix existing ones - such as inventing ECM to fix missileboats.

Edited by Xandralkus, 13 January 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Xandralkus, on 13 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

The devs need to stop inventing new problems in order to fix existing ones - such as inventing ECM to fix missileboats.

I disagree with a number of stances Xandralkus has based on personal preferences but I agree 100% with this statement.

ECM is the worst thing to 'fix' guided missile systems. The systems themself need revising so ECM can fill a different and better role.

If something is broken fix it do tno apply a band aid to a continually broken mechanic.

This reminds me of the story of the man ho swallowed a fly, then swallowed a spider to get the fly and so on.

Rather than look at ECM or LRMs again they insist on trying to bribe us to us TAG and NARC to help missiles.

Fix the root cause of problems and you will make the entire ecosystem of game balance better.

[Revo13]

All I'm reading is a bunch of crying and belly-aching about players with low skill levels wanting to make the game easier so they don't have to increase their skill level.

Defeating ECM is not a problem for me, I appreciate the false sense of security it provides for players as my Cataphract beats the brakes off of them.

If these players will low skill level get their way this game is going to be ruined and we all are going to be playing Call of Duty: MechWarrior Edition.

If you do not like the game, delete it.
[redacted]

Edited by miSs, 14 January 2013 - 07:32 AM.
language

[Regrets]

Who is the one that is crying? You are quick to insult but have no facts, and have indeed said yourself you sold your mando cause the raven is better. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

HI TROLL

[MWHawke]

Asmudius Heng, on 13 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

If i was not grinding various variants I would be running ECM a lot more.

It was not fun ginding those other ravens at all but i did it so my ECM variant would be more powerful.

The developers have a way that makes people not take the ECM mechs - but this does not mean it is good or fun.

As for 8 vs 8 taking HALF THIER TEAM of ECM ... yes obviously thats balanced /sarcasm

As the days go by the newbies will find ECM and realise it is what to take, the others will have ground out their variants and will go back to their mainstay ECM mech.

If ECM was balanced there should be plenty of games that had NO ECM beccause it is not an ESSENTIAL item and no one would feel cheated because they were missing ECM.

I do not care if no one takes BAP - but i do care when we do not have some ECM. Maths be damned this is common sense.

Uhmm.. where does he get the figures from? I've been in quite a number of drops where they run 4 ECM lights AND 4 ECM Atlases.. Maybe it's my bad luck..

[Xandralkus]

Revo13, on 14 January 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

If these players will low skill level get their way this game is going to be ruined and we all are going to be playing Call of Duty: MechWarrior Edition.

ECM has decreased, not increased, the skill cap of the game.

Right now, the game is so overwhelmingly brawl-centric, any ***** that can mount medium lasers, AC-20, or a UAC performs just as well as a pilot who can nail CT every time on a moving target with 100% accuracy using ER lasers. While it sounds like ECM might not impact direct-fire sniping, IT DOES. Direct-fire snipers rely on momentary targeting data from spotters to maneuver to fire on targets of oppurtunity.

ECM destroys ranged combat.

And yes, if we hunt hard enough, we can find an instance where someone was sniped from long-range, post ECM. We all know that exceptions exist. An argument that ranged combat still exists because people still get sniped on a rare basis is invalid.

Heck, I managed to get top damage, top kills, and top XP post-ECM with my double LRM10 hunchback...but that occured only once, and only because the enemy had one ECM. Does this mean "ECM is fine L2P noob"? NO, because that was what we call an outliner - a bizarre and perfectly random outcome FAR outside of the normal expected range of outcomes.

The "thinking man's shooter" will never consist merely of "brawl + bring more ECM than your enemy." That's horrible design even for a hack & slash / spray & pray style game.

Tomorrow is Tuesday. With any luck, the devs might release a surprise patch to fix ECM. At this point, I would be okay with ECM's temporary removal until the devs can figure out how to go about making non-broken ewar. I would rather put up with a week or two of 8x LRM-80 stalkers than ECMwarrior Online.

Edited by Xandralkus, 14 January 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Pando]

I read the title. Didn't read your post. I'm glad you are among the few who says "ecm isn't op". Again, by that title.

[Revo13]

Xandralkus, on 14 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

ECM has decreased, not increased, the skill cap of the game.

Right now, the game is so overwhelmingly brawl-centric, any ***** that can mount medium lasers, AC-20, or a UAC performs just as well as a pilot who can nail CT every time on a moving target with 100% accuracy using ER lasers. While it sounds like ECM might not impact direct-fire sniping, IT DOES. Direct-fire snipers rely on momentary targeting data from spotters to maneuver to fire on targets of oppurtunity.

ECM destroys ranged combat.

And yes, if we hunt hard enough, we can find an instance where someone was sniped from long-range, post ECM. We all know that exceptions exist. An argument that ranged combat still exists because people still get sniped on a rare basis is invalid.

Heck, I managed to get top damage, top kills, and top XP post-ECM with my double LRM10 hunchback...but that occured only once, and only because the enemy had one ECM. Does this mean "ECM is fine L2P noob"? NO, because that was what we call an outliner - a bizarre and perfectly random outcome FAR outside of the normal expected range of outcomes.

The "thinking man's shooter" will never consist merely of "brawl + bring more ECM than your enemy." That's horrible design even for a hack & slash / spray & pray style game.

Tomorrow is Tuesday. With any luck, the devs might release a surprise patch to fix ECM. At this point, I would be okay with ECM's temporary removal until the devs can figure out how to go about making non-broken ewar. I would rather put up with a week or two of 8x LRM-80 stalkers than ECMwarrior Online.

ECM is easy to counter, without using ECM.

If you haven't figured out how to do this yet then the fault is your own and not the fault of PGI to increase the difficulty level.

Practice makes habit.

[Revo13]

Regrets, on 14 January 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

Who is the one that is crying? You are quick to insult but have no facts, and have indeed said yourself you sold your mando cause the raven is better. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

HI TROLL

To: Troll
From: Revo13

Mathematics is a wonderful thing, the Raven is in every way better than the Commando. My Commando has been pushed through to the end, so has the Raven. The Raven is better, yet they both have ECM.

Sincerely,
Your Noob

[Fooooo]

I'm not going to go as far as the OP and stop playing,

However........

What I do know, is that after coming back from about a 1 - 2 month break this game is less fun than it was then, and the reason is purely ECM.

Take from that what you will........

[StalaggtIKE]

Revo13, on 14 January 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

ECM is easy to counter, without using ECM.

If you haven't figured out how to do this yet then the fault is your own and not the fault of PGI to increase the difficulty level.

Practice makes habit.

I challenge you to share you're invaluable knowledge. Post something concrete or perhaps, make a video. But saying just practice is pointless.

[Revo13]

Xandralkus, on 14 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

ECM has decreased, not increased, the skill cap of the game.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! I have to play so much harder against a ECM heavy team, which makes me a better player. I enjoy the difficulty it brings to the game as I only have one ECM mech that I use as a Scout Striker when my Lance requires one for our joint purposes. Learn to play the game or delete it and get off of the forums.

Xandralkus, on 14 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Right now, the game is so overwhelmingly brawl-centric, any ***** that can mount medium lasers, AC-20, or a UAC performs just as well as a pilot who can nail CT every time on a moving target with 100% accuracy using ER lasers. While it sounds like ECM might not impact direct-fire sniping, IT DOES. Direct-fire snipers rely on momentary targeting data from spotters to maneuver to fire on targets of oppurtunity.

ECM destroys ranged combat.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! When I was Mastering my Raven chassis I used a sniper build people laughed at while posted 300+ damage each game and getting 1-3 kills. ECM or not, I do not rely on targeting to snipe, I just snipe. This must be from all of the time I spent sniping in Battlefield 3 with my squad. Oddly enough, we heard a lot of flaming about us using aim-bots or hacks, when we just spent the time to practice together.

Xandralkus, on 14 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

And yes, if we hunt hard enough, we can find an instance where someone was sniped from long-range, post ECM. We all know that exceptions exist. An argument that ranged combat still exists because people still get sniped on a rare basis is invalid.

Heck, I managed to get top damage, top kills, and top XP post-ECM with my double LRM10 hunchback...but that occured only once, and only because the enemy had one ECM. Does this mean "ECM is fine L2P noob"? NO, because that was what we call an outliner - a bizarre and perfectly random outcome FAR outside of the normal expected range of outcomes.

The "thinking man's shooter" will never consist merely of "brawl + bring more ECM than your enemy." That's horrible design even for a hack & slash / spray & pray style game.

Tomorrow is Tuesday. With any luck, the devs might release a surprise patch to fix ECM. At this point, I would be okay with ECM's temporary removal until the devs can figure out how to go about making non-broken ewar. I would rather put up with a week or two of 8x LRM-80 stalkers than ECMwarrior Online.

Here you admit to being a noob-boater. LRM's are great for those who cannot use ballistics or energy weapons properly. So, they rely on others to do their targeting so they can noob-click to fame while fighting P.U.G.S. This is nothing to be proud of, and if I were you I would never admit this to anyone, ever.




You speak of having player skill yet you are proud to announce your noob-boating to get top blah blah blah. I bet you are a K/D-R phreak, also.

Please, PGI, keep making the game more difficult so only the devoted pilots will remain and the noobs will be forced to play better by practicing as hard as we have. Don't ruin a good thing!

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I challenge you to share you're invaluable knowledge. Post something concrete or perhaps, make a video. But saying just practice is pointless.

Why should I tell you?

That is a rhetorical question, do not respond as I am sure you will.

Edited by Revo13, 14 January 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Revo13]

Asmudius Heng, on 13 January 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

ECM is the worst thing to 'fix' guided missile systems. The systems themself need revising so ECM can fill a different and better role.

If something is broken fix it do tno apply a band aid to a continually broken mechanic.

This reminds me of the story of the man ho swallowed a fly, then swallowed a spider to get the fly and so on.

Rather than look at ECM or LRMs again they insist on trying to bribe us to us TAG and NARC to help missiles.

Fix the root cause of problems and you will make the entire ecosystem of game balance better.

ECM is perfect, reference sarna.net ---> http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

If you have at least a Fifth Grade reading level you will understand that PGI it the nail on the head with ECM. Please, practice more you will eventually get better in time. This will also allow these posts about "the game is too difficult! Please PGI, tell me how much money I have to spend or how much whining I have to do until you make the game easier for me!"

Reference TAG here ---> http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Again, thanks for keeping it real PGI!

Reference N.A.R.C. here ---> http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Narc

Yet another nail hit square on the head. Thanks, PGI!



I think I am going to start using the N.A.R.C. and TAG more and more ... rage-discos are hilarious ... and people flaming the N.A.R.C. for being OP is going to be the next MWO trend of hate.


See you on the battle field!

Don't forget your ECM, and streak Atlas!

[StalaggtIKE]

Revo13, on 14 January 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Why should I tell you?
That is a rhetorical question, do not respond as I am sure you will.

Because I know you have no answer. You talk as if you're a know it all, but it is nothing more than a front. A true champion of the game would prefer better competition, so he wouldn't mind sharing his wisdom. No, instead you got so ********* from tucking your tail in between your legs and running from missiles; now that you don't have to, you'll swear to anything to keep it that way. I feel sorry for you because PGI will fix this ECM problem and when they do you will go back to whining like before.

Edit: LOL. The censorship made that look a lot worse than it was.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Sandslice]

Revo13, on 14 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

ECM is perfect, reference sarna.net ---> http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

If you have at least a Fifth Grade reading level you will understand that PGI it the nail on the head with ECM. Please, practice more you will eventually get better in time. This will also allow these posts about "the game is too difficult! Please PGI, tell me how much money I have to spend or how much whining I have to do until you make the game easier for me!"

Actually, ECM does more than that. I'll go through a partial list again:

-TT Guardian ECM has no effect on regular LRM fire. MWO Guardian ECM does, by preventing targeting (and thus missile lock) outside of TAG.
-TT Guardian ECM does not prevent target reveals due to visual spotting (which permit IDF LRMs that target a unit.) MWO Guardian does (and what will hot stealth gear do then? Give actual stealth like rogues in World of Warcraft?)
-TT Guardian ECM does nothing to Streaks - and even TT Angel ECM only disables their lock mechanic. MWO Guardian prevents Streaks from firing at all.
-TT Guardian is "made" by BAP: outside the bubble, the BAP can at least identify that jamming is happening - which should translate in MWO terms into detecting the "event horizon" of the bubble by comparing what areas can be detected to what can't. MWO Guardian denies any sort of advantage to BAP for detecting ECM activity, not even range boosts.
-TT Guardian does not affect TAG, even within the bubble. MWO Guardian does, only within the bubble.

So, they might have "hit the nail on the head," but they did so with a head-crushing sledgehammer.

[Bobzilla]

The only options to counter ECM efectively are to make short range brawlers. Which is pretty much what most people do now. The only tactics in the game is run in close under cover and slug it out. This wouldn't be a bad tactic if both sides didn't always do it. As for lights with ECM, there is no change in tatics, they just don't die as easy.

[StalaggtIKE]

Bobzilla, on 14 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

The only options to counter ECM efectively are to make short range brawlers. Which is pretty much what most people do now. The only tactics in the game is run in close under cover and slug it out. This wouldn't be a bad tactic if both sides didn't always do it. As for lights with ECM, there is no change in tatics, they just don't die as easy.

Which I do. But even then it's not a true counter to ECM. It does not negate any advantages of ECM, nor exploit any weaknesses *lol*, of ECM. Brawling is just currently the most efficient way to play the game.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Regrets]

Sandslice, on 14 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

So, they might have "hit the nail on the head," but they did so with a head-crushing sledgehammer.

You forgot to like your own post and mention something something about 5th grade reading level.

[Revo13]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Because I know you have no answer. You talk as if you're a know it all, but it is nothing more than a front. A true champion of the game would prefer better competition, so he wouldn't mind sharing his wisdom. No, instead you got so ********* from tucking your tail in between your legs and running from missiles; now that you don't have to, you'll swear to anything to keep it that way. I feel sorry for you because PGI will fix this ECM problem and when they do you will go back to whining like before.

Edit: LOL. The censorship made that look a lot worse than it was.

Some have to resort to foul language when they know they have been bested. ECM is no over-powered, I have no problem with ECM with it like it is. Mind you, I do not own a D-DC nor do I have any intention to own one any time soon. I do have a Raven, I had a Commando, for scouting. When I construct a Lance it isn't "bring what ever". It just so happens the Raven is in every way better than the Commando (numbers do not lie).

Sandslice, on 14 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Actually, ECM does more than that. I'll go through a partial list again:

-TT Guardian ECM has no effect on regular LRM fire. MWO Guardian ECM does, by preventing targeting (and thus missile lock) outside of TAG.
-TT Guardian ECM does not prevent target reveals due to visual spotting (which permit IDF LRMs that target a unit.) MWO Guardian does (and what will hot stealth gear do then? Give actual stealth like rogues in World of Warcraft?)
-TT Guardian ECM does nothing to Streaks - and even TT Angel ECM only disables their lock mechanic. MWO Guardian prevents Streaks from firing at all.
-TT Guardian is "made" by BAP: outside the bubble, the BAP can at least identify that jamming is happening - which should translate in MWO terms into detecting the "event horizon" of the bubble by comparing what areas can be detected to what can't. MWO Guardian denies any sort of advantage to BAP for detecting ECM activity, not even range boosts.
-TT Guardian does not affect TAG, even within the bubble. MWO Guardian does, only within the bubble.

So, they might have "hit the nail on the head," but they did so with a head-crushing sledgehammer.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Read, read, read.


That is odd that you think that way, Sarna clearly states that Guardian ECM effects ALL those systems:

"[color=#000000]The [/color]Guardian ECM Suite[color=#000000] was introduced in [/color]2597[color=#000000] by the [/color]Terran Hegemony^[1][color=#000000]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[/color]^[2][color=#000000] Affected systems include [/color]Artemis IV[color=#000000], [/color]C3[color=#000000]and [/color]C3i Computer[color=#000000] networks, and [/color]Narc Missile Beacons[color=#000000]. A Guardian can jam a [/color]Beagle Active Probe[color=#000000] (or its Clan [/color]equivalent[color=#000000]), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The [/color]Capellan Confederation[color=#000000] expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of [/color]Stealth Armor[color=#000000].[/color]^[3][color=#000000]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2][/color]
[color=#000000]
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^{[4]" - Reference Sarna.net}[/color]



TAG is different, you just can't use TAG inside of the field as the Guardian ECM is jamming your electronics in the first place ... what about that do you not understand?

I can explain it to you if you would like.

This game isn't "give me what I want because I am special", this game is "good luck, you are going to need it!".

Bobzilla, on 14 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

The only options to counter ECM efectively are to make short range brawlers. Which is pretty much what most people do now. The only tactics in the game is run in close under cover and slug it out. This wouldn't be a bad tactic if both sides didn't always do it. As for lights with ECM, there is no change in tatics, they just don't die as easy.

Think outside of the box, "there is more than one way to skin a cat". ECM is great for the unskilled player, it makes them feel safe and secure in the open, which I take FULL advantage of. There is nothing better than a nerf-ball Fatlas standing in the open launching LRM's. My brawler can't get enough beating the brakes off of those guys.

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Which I do. But even then it's not a true counter to ECM. It does not negate any advantages of ECM, nor exploit any weaknesses *lol*, of ECM. Brawling is just currently the most efficient way to play the game.

Sniping is very efficient way to play. 300+ damage with ER PPC and 1-3 kills. ECM actually makes my sniping career EASIER. The players "under" ECM cover stand in the open making it simple to rip arms off and core them.




To put this plainly, there is a player that I cored at 500 meters with ballistics when he was piloting his Atlas D-DC. I will not name him as I am sure there is a rule against that. The point here is, he was talking trash about my build and told me that their team was going to focus me only. So I cored him, and proceeded to win the game. If he ever acquires a Stalker I will stand on his head until he dies like I did to another unfortunate soul.

Cataphracts for life.

Sincerely,
Your Noob

[Sandslice]

Revo13, on 14 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Some have to resort to foul language when they know they have been bested. ECM is no over-powered, I have no problem with ECM with it like it is. Mind you, I do not own a D-DC nor do I have any intention to own one any time soon. I do have a Raven, I had a Commando, for scouting. When I construct a Lance it isn't "bring what ever". It just so happens the Raven is in every way better than the Commando (numbers do not lie).

A Jenner can do most of what a Raven can do. But when you construct a Lance, you'll take the Raven. Why? Because of ECM, end of line.

Quote

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Read, read, read.
That is odd that you think that way, Sarna clearly states that Guardian ECM effects ALL those systems:

Fluff is not necessarily reflected in game rules, and if you read the double blind TT rules in Tactical Operations... which are 100% about information warfare - visual acquisition, and the interaction of various EloKa systems with each other... you'll find that I'm not "wrong, wrong, wrong."

TT ECM does not block regular targeting, which is what visual spotting is. In other words, if I'm 300m (10 hexes) away from you with DLOS to you, you are targeted - but so am I (even if I'm behind you, since TT field of view is 360 degrees.)

TT ECM does not block C3 unless the bubble's event horizon blocks line of effect between a slave and its master (or between two masters, which I'll skip for brevity.) C3i is harder to block since the six 'Mechs in a C3i net all have lines to each other. Just for reference.

TT Guardian ECM does not affect TAG or Streaks - this is a matter of game mechanics: it's not the Russian Shtora-1 system.

As your quote indicates, the presence of an active TT ECM can be detected by BAP, any time BAP can potentially detect a protected unit and fails to do so. And fails - yes, TT BAP gets a roll against ECM.

So yeah.