13 replies to this topic

[Kristina Sarah McEvedy]

I know in the original canon that NSS become LosTech, but since this is a reboot I figured we could potentially bring it back from the depths of LosTech hell for the reboot.


NULL SIGNATURE SYSTEM
COST: 1,500,000 C-Bills
WEIGHT: 1 ton total (my Classic BT is a bit rusty, may have been more or less than this)
CRITICAL SPACE: 1 per Hit Location excluding Head (Total: 7)
EFFECTS

• Can be activated and deactivated.
  
• When active, the Mech appears invisible on Heat Vision.
  
• When active, the Mech counts as being effected by a friendly ECM in Disrupt mode (personal meaning it only effects the Mech using the Null Signature System).
  
• Artemis, Command Modules, Beagle Active Probes, and other similar targeting systems equipped on a Mech also equipped with a Null Signature System will not function while the Null Signature System is active.
  
• Increases the Mechs minimum heat to 10% and noticeably reduces the effectiveness of your Heat Sinks while active.
  
• If any one section including a Null Signature System critical slot is destroyed, the system can no longer be used.

Edited by Joseph Marik, 10 January 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[Noth]

Maybe if they fix ECM. Currently ECM does everything that the Null sig does (minus the invisible to heat vision) with none of the down sides of teh null sig system and even has an AOE effect.

[Kristina Sarah McEvedy]

Noth, on 10 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Maybe if they fix ECM. Currently ECM does everything that the Null sig does (minus the invisible to heat vision) with none of the down sides of teh null sig system and even has an AOE effect.

If my memory is correct the original Null Signature System was actually better than this (prevented any kind of targeting or missile locks at all), just thought the ECM reference would be a bit easier to understand and was a bit more balanced.

[StalaggtIKE]

I would love to see this happen. I would also like for stealth armor to be added.

Noth, on 10 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Maybe if they fix ECM. Currently ECM does everything that the Null sig does (minus the invisible to heat vision) with none of the down sides of teh null sig system and even has an AOE effect.

THIS. They should first fix ECM, by removing its stealth bubble. If not Null Sig would be inferior.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 03:06 AM.

[Noth]

Joseph Marik, on 10 January 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

If my memory is correct the original Null Signature System was actually better than this (prevented any kind of targeting or missile locks at all), just thought the ECM reference would be a bit easier to understand and was a bit more balanced.

Currently, ECM pretty much prevents any targetting or missile locks as it is now in the game. Null sig was meant to make the mech very hard to pick up on sensors, and that is exactly what ECM currently does. ECM just does it without the massive crit cost, the heat generation, and is AoE.

[steelblueskies]

null sig required an ecm unit to be coinstalled.
ecm did not equire null sig to be co-installed.

throw it in, and let it mask thermal vision mode pickups.

be a perfect way to finally demonstrate the other inherent problems to the ecm is fine l2p direct fire crowd.

then we can push for a modern revival of the chameleon light polarization shield system. remove proper visuals on targets in normal vision mode. yep, that'll teach em. can't wait. be some awesome popcorn time reading the can't see in thermal, or normal mode and can't get targets but its fine l2p threads after that.

[Apoc1138]

steelblueskies, on 10 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

null sig required an ecm unit to be coinstalled.
ecm did not equire null sig to be co-installed.

throw it in, and let it mask thermal vision mode pickups.

be a perfect way to finally demonstrate the other inherent problems to the ecm is fine l2p direct fire crowd.

then we can push for a modern revival of the chameleon light polarization shield system. remove proper visuals on targets in normal vision mode. yep, that'll teach em. can't wait. be some awesome popcorn time reading the can't see in thermal, or normal mode and can't get targets but its fine l2p threads after that.

stealth armour requires ECM to be co-installed
stealth armour + ECM = the same effects as null sig

stealth armour only removes heat signature, therefore null sig minus heat signature blocking = ECM

[Abrissbirne]

Yep, right now the Guardian ECM is the same as NullSig. On TT, it was only to break the advanced targeting systems - Artemis, Narc, C3, Targeting Computers, Beagle Probes. That should be implemented and nothing more.
Then the NullSig would make sense.
But: the system was rare even in Canon - only two Mechs made use of it (Exterminator and Spektor).
Besides, the mentioned specs are not correct:

NullSig takes no weight, but one critical slot in every zone.
Advanced targeting systems do work, but the equipped mech is extremely hard to hit (as if your crosshairs would start jumping when trying to target) because the thermal output and the standard magnetic anomalies signature is masked.
The heat sinks do not work properly when the system is active - the mech generates 10 Heat points per TT round.
Active probes do not work on the unit.

And stealth armor - well, when active, it's like the mech is under his own ECM disruption field. With the actual ECM effects, I doubt anyone would play that.

[Strum Wealh]

steelblueskies, on 10 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

null sig required an ecm unit to be coinstalled.
ecm did not equire null sig to be co-installed.

throw it in, and let it mask thermal vision mode pickups.

While there may be some functional overlap, Guardian ECM and NullSig are completely separate systems, and the latter does not need the former to function.

From Tactical Operations, pg. 336:

• "Created by the first Star League, the null-signature system is an elaborate series of passive and active electronic countermeasures and heat baffles that combine to mask a BattleMech’s heat and electromagnetic signature. Similar to the modern, Capellan-made stealth armor system that derives from it, the null-signature system is somewhat more sophisticated, and does not require the use of a separate ECM unit to attain its capabilities."
  
• "While the Null-Signature System is engaged, attacks against the unit at Medium range receive an additional +1 to-hit modifier, while attacks at Long and Extreme Range receive an additional +2 to-hit modifier. Beagle Active Probes and their Clan equivalents cannot locate a hidden unit with an active Null-Signature System, and heat-seeking weapons (such as Heat-Seeking Missiles) calculate their to-hit modifiers against the unit as though it is 8 points cooler than it actually is. Only a Bloodhound Active Probe (see p. 278) can penetrate the Null-Signature System’s masking."
  
• "While active, the system generates 10 points of heat."
  
• "The Null-Signature System does not weigh a significant amount, but takes up 1 critical slot in each of the BattleMech’s locations except the head."

Also, all of the anti-sensor modifiers for NullSig on the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" (Tactical Operations, pg. 223) are one to two points higher than those for ECM for all sensor types.

Interestingly, all of the anti-sensor modifiers for Guardian ECM on the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" are zero to two points higher than those for Stealth Armor for all sensor types - indicating that Guardian ECM, by itself, is strictly equal to or better than (and thus, arguably preferable to) Stealth Armor (which requires G-ECM to be installed to function, anyway).

[steelblueskies]

Strum Wealh, on 10 January 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

While there may be some functional overlap, Guardian ECM and NullSig are completely separate systems, and the latter does not need the former to function.

From Tactical Operations, pg. 336:

• "Created by the first Star League, the null-signature system is an elaborate series of passive and active electronic countermeasures and heat baffles that combine to mask a BattleMech’s heat and electromagnetic signature. Similar to the modern, Capellan-made stealth armor system that derives from it, the null-signature system is somewhat more sophisticated, and does not require the use of a separate ECM unit to attain its capabilities."
  
• "While the Null-Signature System is engaged, attacks against the unit at Medium range receive an additional +1 to-hit modifier, while attacks at Long and Extreme Range receive an additional +2 to-hit modifier. Beagle Active Probes and their Clan equivalents cannot locate a hidden unit with an active Null-Signature System, and heat-seeking weapons (such as Heat-Seeking Missiles) calculate their to-hit modifiers against the unit as though it is 8 points cooler than it actually is. Only a Bloodhound Active Probe (see p. 278) can penetrate the Null-Signature System’s masking."
  
• "While active, the system generates 10 points of heat."
  
• "The Null-Signature System does not weigh a significant amount, but takes up 1 critical slot in each of the BattleMech’s locations except the head."

Also, all of the anti-sensor modifiers for NullSig on the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" (Tactical Operations, pg. 223) are one to two points higher than those for ECM for all sensor types.



Interestingly, all of the anti-sensor modifiers for Guardian ECM on the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" are zero to two points higher than those for Stealth Armor for all sensor types - indicating that Guardian ECM, by itself, is strictly equal to or better than (and thus, arguably preferable to) Stealth Armor (which requires G-ECM to be installed to function, anyway).

steelblueskies, on 31 December 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

you mean these tables from double blind?

Spoiler

note: easier to quote myself elsewhere to put the tables here. ignore section on ecm specifically at bottom.

Edited by steelblueskies, 10 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[blinkin]

Noth, on 10 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Maybe if they fix ECM. Currently ECM does everything that the Null sig does (minus the invisible to heat vision) with none of the down sides of teh null sig system and even has an AOE effect.

in many cases the AOE is a major penalty.

i hunt many light mechs by using the ECM radius to determine where they are. ECM mechs don't get to sneak or surprise people.

[focuspark]

blinkin, on 10 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

in many cases the AOE is a major penalty.

i hunt many light mechs by using the ECM radius to determine where they are. ECM mechs don't get to sneak or surprise people.

But that's the exact opposite of how it should be. You shouldn't care about ECM until you're in the AOE then you should be like "oh crap!" The current ECM system is plain BROKEN.

[StalaggtIKE]

blinkin, on 10 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

in many cases the AOE is a major penalty.

i hunt many light mechs by using the ECM radius to determine where they are. ECM mechs don't get to sneak or surprise people.

Yes they can. I'll give you a hint, it's called switching to "counter" mode.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 11 January 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

focuspark, on 10 January 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

But that's the exact opposite of how it should be. You shouldn't care about ECM until you're in the AOE then you should be like "oh crap!" The current ECM system is plain BROKEN.

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes [180 meters] that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." (Total Warfare, pg. 134)

If one is trying to get a lock on an ECM-toting 'Mech, then one would have to be trying to see it through the bubble... which means having a line of sight that goes through the bubble...