46 replies to this topic

[Lord Jay]

http://dgaider.tumbl...ic-environments

I tend to largely avoid them these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative— not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general. That’s not a good feeling to have. I’m sure there are folks there who would bristle at that comment, suggesting that all negative feedback is justifiable and that ignoring it is the equivalent of us sticking our heads in the sand. How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers? That is, of course, ignoring the idea that we haven’t already digested a mountain of feedback— both positive and negative— and there’s really only so much of it you can take. Eventually you make decisions (informed by that feedback, though only in part— it can only ever be in part) and move on.


And I’m sure there are also people there who would say that there’s plenty of useful, thoughtful feedback. Not all of it consists of angry ranting. You can, in fact, meet and talk to some very keen and intelligent posters. And that’s very true. If it weren’t true, I wouldn’t go there at all. Yet the signal-to-noise ratio does seem to be worsening, and eventually you get the feeling like you’re at one of those parties where all anyone is doing is bitching. It doesn’t matter what they’re bitching about so much as, sooner or later, that’s all you can really hear. Engaging starts to mean partaking in the bitching until you feel like that’s all you’re doing. Even when I try to rise above, those who are most negative will seek me out in order to get a rise out of me— and not unsuccessfully. I am only human, and I’ll end up responding to score points just as they do, and end up feeling ****** for having done so.

I imagine that can happen to any online community. Eventually the polite, reasonable folks stop feeling like it’s a group of people they want to hang around. So they leave, and those who remain start to see only those who agree with them— and, because that’s all they see, they think that’s all there is. Everyone feels as they do, according to them. Once the tipping point is passed, you’re left with the extremes… those who hate, and those who dislike the haters enough to endure the toxic atmosphere to try and combat them. Each clash between those groups drives more of the others away.


Why that is, I have no doubt there are many theories. And no shortage of people who would like to point them out, and make sure that under no circumstances do we get the impression that theirs is not the proper point of view.

There’s no need to vilify them, however. There are people like that all over the Internet— they are right about something. So right that it justifies behavior which would never be acceptable in real life conversation. On the Internet, that’s supposed to just be background noise. We should hear how right they are and listen to their point, not react to how they’re flinging it in your face. We can point fingers at gamers, but there are people who do this for all sorts of reasons. Someone might have a social justice cause, for instance, and honestly believe the thing they’re right about makes them better than someone arguing about a game mechanic, but they’re no different. They could have an excellent point, same as the gamer, but that point will still be equally lost and their behavior still be just as unacceptable and toxic.

Which is too bad. I think there’s something to be said there about the level of rhetoric and entitlement among online gamer communities in general. Perhaps there is also something to be said about whether the games BioWare makes still satisfy our core fans. Though one need only attend a con to see there are plenty of positive, enthusiastic fans out there… and while a cynic might suggest liking “those people” means we want only praise and nothing else that’s simply not true. It’s possible to like something overall and yet dislike parts of it intensely, or to be disappointed overall in something you were hoping to like, and in either case to have a positive discussion regarding what you’ve disliked. I’ve had several such discussions with fans at cons, and indeed walked away from those discussions with a far better attitude about them simply because the tone of that interaction was not adversarial.

At any rate, rest assured that the BSN is not the only place we go to see what “our fans” think about something. I suspect you’d get a skewed opinion of almost any game if you went solely by its dedicated online community. They certainly serve their place, and if you want to gauge the temperature of the hardest of the hardcore’s opinions about core matters there’s probably no better place to go… but representative of all fans? Not in the slightest.

Personally I’d really like to seek out positive interactions and not engage with those who are out to attack me… but that’s really hard, isn’t it? It’s especially hard when someone takes something you’ve said and twists it, and then misrepresents it to others as what you actually said.. and how would they know otherwise? Reference that misrepresentation and, as far as anyone’s concerned, I may as well have said it. The urge to go in and correct them is almost overwhelming. But what would be the point, other than to offer them new ammunition and ultimately end up being an ******* myself? I’ve done it often enough. Best to take a breath, smile and remember there are a lot of really genuine, positive people to talk to. People who challenge you in a way that doesn’t make you feel worse about yourself. You should surround yourself with them the same way you’d surround yourself with such people in real life.

Words to live by? I hope so. The only other option is to simply avoid all online interaction with fans at all or make any such completely benign and PR-oriented, which would be unfortunate— and not, I suspect, what even the angry fan would want.

[IceSerpent]

Lord Jay, on 10 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

I tend to largely avoid them these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative— not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general. That’s not a good feeling to have. I’m sure there are folks there who would bristle at that comment, suggesting that all negative feedback is justifiable and that ignoring it is the equivalent of us sticking our heads in the sand. How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers? That is, of course, ignoring the idea that we haven’t already digested a mountain of feedback— both positive and negative— and there’s really only so much of it you can take. Eventually you make decisions (informed by that feedback, though only in part— it can only ever be in part) and move on.

This paragraph tells you why SWTOR failed so miserably - it went kind of like this:

Playerbase: from the start of closed beta repeatedly provides a list of things that are broken, along with detailed explanations why they are broken and equally detailed ideas on how to fix them.

BW developers: "we know better"...proceed with breaking even more stuff, while keeping original problems untouched.

Playerbase: "oh well, some other MMOs just got released / went into CBT / went into OBT, bye"

BW developers: "wait, where did everybody go?"

[River Walker]

IceSerpent, on 10 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

This paragraph tells you why SWTOR failed so miserably - it went kind of like this:

Playerbase: from the start of closed beta repeatedly provides a list of things that are broken, along with detailed explanations why they are broken and equally detailed ideas on how to fix them.

BW developers: "we know better"...proceed with breaking even more stuff, while keeping original problems untouched.

Playerbase: "oh well, some other MMOs just got released / went into CBT / went into OBT, bye"

BW developers: "wait, where did everybody go?"

You speak the truth and I tow see it this way because I was their and saw it as you describe it.

[Agent of Change]

I agree

[Solomon Ward]

Thanks Lord Jay.

makes me sad reading it even tho it is nothing new.

The internet reveals the human abysses.

[Agelmar]

SWTOR had so much potential when closed beta started. Itemization was going the right way, 8v8 WZs were possible, just needed to iron out the bugs....

They instead did everything the playerbase asked them NOT to do because of arrogance.

Ps. Republic Justice owned all of you beta people. That is all.

[8RoundsRapid]

You all are a bunch of hypocrites. Not a damn one of you listens to what anybody else has to say on this or any other forum. Everybody talks over everybody else, and everybody else's opinions are not only wrong, but the opinions owners must be mentally deficient, ugly, fat, never get laid, have a neckbeard, and so on. None of you listen to anybody else, but you expect the game devs to listen to you? Then you ***** more about how if they'd only listened to you on the forums. Get over yourselves.

And don't give me that 'but we're supposed to be testing! How can we test if they don't listen?' BS, open and closed betas are publicity stunts these days, nothing more.

I am no fan of bioware, to be sure. But that game dev is spot on.

And SWTOR sucked big time.

(obviously, I dont literally mean 'all of you' I mean more like 95% of you)

Edited by 8RoundsRapid, 10 January 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Screech]

He does seem to have a "Let them eat cake" attitude.

BW next game looks to be "The Echo Chamber"

[Ihasa]

IceSerpent, on 10 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

This paragraph tells you why SWTOR failed so miserably - it went kind of like this:

Playerbase: from the start of closed beta repeatedly provides a list of things that are broken, along with detailed explanations why they are broken and equally detailed ideas on how to fix them.

BW developers: "we know better"...proceed with breaking even more stuff, while keeping original problems untouched.

Playerbase: "oh well, some other MMOs just got released / went into CBT / went into OBT, bye"

BW developers: "wait, where did everybody go?"

Sounds a lot like Cryptic and Star Trek Online as well.

[Agent of Change]

8RoundsRapid, on 10 January 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You all are a bunch of hypocrites. Not a damn one of you listens to what anybody else has to say on this or any other forum. Everybody talks over everybody else, and everybody else's opinions are not only wrong, but the opinions owners must be mentally deficient, ugly, fat, never get laid, have a neckbeard, and so on. None of you listen to anybody else, but you expect the game devs to listen to you? Then you ***** more about how if they'd only listened to you on the forums. Get over yourselves.

And don't give me that 'but we're supposed to be testing! How can we test if they don't listen?' BS, open and closed betas are publicity stunts these days, nothing more.

I am no fan of bioware, to be sure. But that game dev is spot on.

And SWTOR sucked big time.

(obviously, I dont literally mean 'all of you' I mean more like 95% of you)

Thank you for that (hopefully intentionally ironic) performance piece exactly demonstrating the major issues.

We've got insults, broad assumptions, self righteousness, an assumption of clear rightness demonstrated by definitive statements without evidence and a self contained contradiction during an admonishment (accusing someone of doing/being something while doing/being that same thing).

Wonderfully done.

[HurlockHolmes]

You want to see an amazing developer? Having played in Path of Exile's beta for awhile now, they respond REALLY well to community feedback. The progress they have made is amazing. They also respond well to criticism. Though to be fare, their game is very well polished with a minimal amount of bugs.

Bioware is terrible, you give a minor amount of valid criticism and you will be flat out banned. They had a MASSIVE budget for swtor, and the gameplay is subpar.

Pgi is dipping it's feet in this mmo/fps/f2p buisness, they seem to listen to qq, but not to the people who actually have a clue how to actually make the game more balanced. They are also developing for an engine that isn't fully fleshed out. They need to handle community/developer interaction better, talk to major clans, and gather info on how to possibly improve the game.

[NRP]

@Lord Jay
Thanks for posting that. It's thought provoking.

[hammerreborn]

8RoundsRapid, on 10 January 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You all are a bunch of hypocrites. Not a damn one of you listens to what anybody else has to say on this or any other forum. Everybody talks over everybody else, and everybody else's opinions are not only wrong, but the opinions owners must be mentally deficient, ugly, fat, never get laid, have a neckbeard, and so on. None of you listen to anybody else, but you expect the game devs to listen to you? Then you ***** more about how if they'd only listened to you on the forums. Get over yourselves.

And don't give me that 'but we're supposed to be testing! How can we test if they don't listen?' BS, open and closed betas are publicity stunts these days, nothing more.

I am no fan of bioware, to be sure. But that game dev is spot on.

And SWTOR sucked big time.

(obviously, I dont literally mean 'all of you' I mean more like 95% of you)

SWTOR was amazing from start to max level. Then it became the biggest steaming pile of steaming poo ever to be steamed with the million bugs in the raids, and lackluster PVP. Didn't that game also have really terrible netcode for PvP, where it would just be "suddenly, WARRIOR" and it proceeded to miss you 20 times because you really weren't in melee range even though he uesd the jump to get into melee range?

Edited by hammerreborn, 10 January 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Oddly enough, my experience in the CB for ToR wasn't quite the negative one so many of you seem to have had. Then again, I understood all along that I was beta testing a SINGLE PLAYER game set in an online world that allowed coop play and PvP, after all, it's a Bioware product and they have no freaking clue about multiplayer, never have and have repeatedly shown that with their products. All of you expecting otherwise..well..that's really your own fault, what else could you expect from BW, who have a proven track record of totally not getting multiplayer but excelling at single player storyline games.

As for PGI and their listening to people 'who know better'...really...are you ******* kidding me? How many games have YOU developed professionally? How much have made in the game business? None, nothing and nada...and YOU know better? I'm sorry, I missed something there, like when the hells this universe suddenly became YOUR personal playground and the rest of us are just peons to serve you, I guess no one sent me that memo.

PGI has a vision in mind, they have a design plan set up, for a game they want to create, NOT the game you want them to create specially for you alone, so you might want to stop demanding they do what YOU want all the damn time and maybe look at what they are going for in the final product. I know, I know, that means someone other then YOU gets to be the center of the universe and that's just so godsdamned unfair it's not funny, I'm sorry, but you WILL get over it cupcake..or you won't, I really don't give a surat's furry rearend, neither does anyone else.

We are beta testers, it's our job to report bugs, glitches, exploits and flaws in what we are given to test. I see so many really ****** suggestions, hell lets call them what they are, DEMANDS made by the testers that it makes me sick, 'YOU MUST DO THIS OR THIS GAME WILL FAIL!' over and over and over, sometimes very crude and aggressively worded and sometimes very nicely and sweetly worded, but it's the same steaming pile of **** each time, 'YOU MUST DO THIS OR THE GAME WILL FAIL!'. I don't make suggestions, I test what we're given, I find the bugs and glitches and expliots and flaws and I report them. When I'm ASKED for my opinion about specific features or options, I give it, but otherwise, it's not my place to tell PGI how to make THEIR game. And, for the record cupcake, it's not YOUR place to tell PGI how to make their game either.

[Helbourne]

hammerreborn, on 10 January 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

SWTOR was amazing from start to max level. Then it became the biggest steaming pile of steaming poo ever to be steamed with the million bugs in the raids, and lackluster PVP. Didn't that game also have really terrible netcode for PvP, where it would just be "suddenly, WARRIOR" and it proceeded to miss you 20 times because you really weren't in melee range even though he uesd the jump to get into melee range?

Yeah there is something wrong when you have a bugged out boss fight. The devs 'fix' the bugs, and all that was accomplished was getting different bugs which were just as bad as the first set of bugs. Like they have a programming bug mutator.

Edited by Helbourne, 10 January 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[matux]

8RoundsRapid, on 10 January 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You all are a bunch of hypocrites. Not a damn one of you listens to what anybody else has to say on this or any other forum. Everybody talks over everybody else, and everybody else's opinions are not only wrong, but the opinions owners must be mentally deficient, ugly, fat, never get laid, have a neckbeard, and so on.

Mentally deficient... maybe after drinking... ugly... not really... Fat.... kind of, It's not like I lift... Never get laid..... you make sound as if by choice... but... but mocking neckbeards... you have crossed the line in the sand.

Edited by matux, 10 January 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Helbourne]

oh another thing, remember everyone is always an expert and misery loves company

[Jman5]

I've said this before, but it is my opinion that the format of internet forums is what kills them. They breed controversy and flame wars because those are the topics that are guaranteed to get plenty of responses and subsequent bumps back to the top of the list. It takes just a handful of disgruntled posters to completely fill a forum day in and day out with angry threads about the game.

Forums and boards like them are getting worse as more people use them. I feel like the only way forward is to completely scrub the current system and replace it with something that better filters shitposts to the bottom. Reddit's nesting comments and voting system is good in this regard, but not so good at fostering a high volume of discussion threads like forums can do. Instead you only get a dozen new topics a day that make it to the top.

Edited by Jman5, 10 January 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

IronEagle, on 10 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

They 'improved' swtor to death. I payed 6 months in advance and quit after 3 months.
Missing groupfinder, broken raid content, they spent millions on actors for in game videos nobody cared about....

Age of Conan.... same, broken group mechanic, exodus after 3 months.

You have something similar here, an ECM absolut nobody asked for, poor lightmech hit detection,
a pure 8 man mode with no matchmaking nobody asked for ... and so on.
You get christmas lights, a snow map, 2 night maps....

Read the forums, listen to people that play your game, if 50% of the people don't like ECM - take it out,
if 60% don't like to be stomped - do something, if 80% of the player can't hit a special mech - take it out
until it is fixed...and so on...

This..right here..prime example of someone telling PGI 'do this or fail!' without a single bit of evidence beyond their own opinion. In CB, the majority of the people DEMANDED the 8v8 drop ability..yet no one wanted it..same with Conquest and Assault..in CB the majority demanded Conquest, we get it and suddenly NO ONE EVER ASKED FOR IT! You have no idea what the majority want, you only know what YOU want and it seems to be in opposition to what the masses want..so..who should PGI listen to?

[Stone Profit]

I agree with you lord jay. Negative feedback is important, but some forum users have no common decency nor respect for others. This is why I tend to avoid forums as well. And god forbid someone disagree with a negative view. Then that person will be insulted and derided. Terrible how people behave on the Internet. Id love to see someone criticize these people at their jobs in a similar fashion and see how they react. Quite poorly I would imagine.