29 replies to this topic

[Caboose30]

As it stands right now when you fire LRMs under 180m, they bounce off things harmlessly. The way it works on Table Top (hear me out, I think this is a good idea) is that it becomes incredibly more difficult to hit the target the closer you get, but the overall damage allocation part goes as normal. Since ECM has basically killed the use of LRMs, how about we get back to that? Adjust the LRM flight path so that it's a little higher, and spreads out a little more, don't allow locks under 180m, but allow the missiles to explode. That way it's insanely difficult to actually hit a moving target at close range, and downright impossible at point blank, but it can be done. Besides remaining true to Table Top, which really is secondary to gameplay, it will make LRMs a little more viable against the massive ECM cheese teams that are floating around out there. Being an LRM boat myself I would definitely like a fighting chance.

Otherwise, make Beagle Probe counter ECM by nature the way it's supposed to, and make NARC permanent until that section it's attached to is hit by weapons fire.

Edited by Niko Snow, 29 October 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[whiteknight]

JuiceCaboose, on 11 January 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Otherwise, make Beagle Probe counter ECM by nature the way it's supposed to, and make NARC permanent until that section it's attached to is hit by weapons fire.

Beagle Probe is not supposed to counter ECM, at least not in the Table Top, in fact its the other way around.
See Total Warfare Page 129 "Active Probe" and Page 134 "ECM Suite"

[WiIIiam]

Personally I think LRMS are fine with a 180 min range. It's just making the missles have an arming distance to avoid damage to yourself (like an RPG, 75'?). If the 180 min range is removed they should/need to add splash damage.

[Caboose30]

The way I read it is that they cancel each other out. I suppose I could be wrong.

whiteknight, on 11 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Beagle Probe is not supposed to counter ECM, at least not in the Table Top, in fact its the other way around.
See Total Warfare Page 129 "Active Probe" and Page 134 "ECM Suite"

[whiteknight]

No worries, its a VERY common myth that seems to propagate on these forums.

As far as TT rules MWO does more or less have the right of it when it comes to cancelling ECM, that you use another ECM unit in ECCM mode (a Tactical Operations Rule) to make it happen. That said the current implementation is ridiculously far and above the TT version and does need some cutting down

[Truesight]

Well, i am gonna play an Awesome 8R then with quad LRM 20. Since the LRM tubes are at the stomache, you just have to close to a target.... Thats 160 dmg and almost guaranteed. enough to core an Atlas in 1 Volley. Would be op.

[Caboose30]

That's a good point too. So what if instead of reducing your odds of hitting, you reduce the odds of the missiles exploding by a percentage when they're under 180m. You fire at something right at 180m, 95% explode. 150m, 75% explode, or something similar, all the way down to where only one or two explode. I'm not exactly knocking the system they have now, but would like to improve it if possible.

Truesight, on 11 January 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Well, i am gonna play an Awesome 8R then with quad LRM 20. Since the LRM tubes are at the stomache, you just have to close to a target.... Thats 160 dmg and almost guaranteed. enough to core an Atlas in 1 Volley. Would be op.

[Noth]

Just wait for the Clan LRMs.

[Caboose30]

Noth, on 11 January 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Just wait for the Clan LRMs.

There's no promise that non-Clanners are going to be able to use them.

[StalaggtIKE]

Well based on their speed and size, I would imagine they do not explode from impact of blasting cap. However, this is the future, so I guess we can embellish a bit.
Instead, what would really help LRM are two types flight patterns: vertical and top down. When fired without guidance, it will fly vertically and have a faster acceleration speed. When guided it fly as it does now.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 11 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Noth]

JuiceCaboose, on 11 January 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

There's no promise that non-Clanners are going to be able to use them.

So if you want LRMs that don't have a dead zone play as a clanner. Otherwise build accordingly.

[Caboose30]

Noth, on 11 January 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

So if you want LRMs that don't have a dead zone play as a clanner. Otherwise build accordingly.

You're going to have to explain that a little bit better. There is *no way* to build against ECM right now. Not BAP, not TAG, not NARC, not Artemis. It defeats everything that has more power than a calculator. That's why I propose letting LRMs do damage in a limited fashion below minimum range, to even things a bit when you go against an ECM team and can't fire LRMs for 75% of the game.

[Noth]

JuiceCaboose, on 13 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

You're going to have to explain that a little bit better. There is *no way* to build against ECM right now. Not BAP, not TAG, not NARC, not Artemis. It defeats everything that has more power than a calculator. That's why I propose letting LRMs do damage in a limited fashion below minimum range, to even things a bit when you go against an ECM team and can't fire LRMs for 75% of the game.

You may as well take SRMs if you want to do that. If they fix ECM then you problem vanishes. They need to fix what is broken, not bandaid it.

[Jukebox1986]

I´m sorry, i will quote myself in this case:

Janus Wealth, on 09 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Besides the Fact, that ECM is still overpowered, i dont get the rant over LRM´s. I run an 4xLRM15 Stalker when i go in 8-man matches as well as going 4-man or simply going alone.

My average damage is 700. Sometimes its just 400, sometimes its 1000+ but i never had a problem since TAG has gotten 750 m range. I just dont get it.


Rule 1: Line of sight. - never use your LRM´s without line of sight. (exept youre in a team, and you trust your scout)

Rule 2: Teamwork. - ATM you need an ECM-Mech to counter enemy ECM-mech near you. Either stay away from enemy ECM (thats hard, as you cant outrun an 3L) or stay with an DDC (for example).

Rule 3: Range: - LRM´s work at best at 250-500m Range. They´re flying to slow to let em cross a distance over 800 and harm anyone who´s not deaf and blind. You can shoot em at that range to distract or pin enemy mechs, but you wont do damage.

My advice to the Dev´s would be splitting the Power of ECM more. Like:

Mode 1 - the bubble
Hides everyone in Range of 180 Meters from Radar and getting locked on by LRM´s and streaks, but if your inside the Bubble, it has no effect on you anymore. Counter = Tag

Mode 2 - dirupt enemy lock at short range
Every mech inside the 180m bubble loses its ability to lock, loses its radar and gets interferences. Counter = Narc (narced targets gets a "can always get locked on"for a short time)

Mode 3 - counter
Counters the nearest two targets with ECM inside 180 m. counter = none

This would make a huge difference in playing with ecm. You can hide, you can disrupt, but you need to play different. Counter needs to get stronger, or ECM en masse will still be the way to go for everyone. It makes sure that even with less ECM, you can still nullify the opponments ECM. ECM would need to be played a lot smarter than now.

Edited by Janus Wealth, 13 January 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Jaden Hekard]

I mostly drive a lrm boat stalker mech and even though it would be nice to be able to let the missiles arm immediately after departing the mech it would in my opinion kinda pointless. It keeps good lrm boaters close to the team mates and less likely chance of blowing yourself up. Just my thoughts though. im open to anything. Now about the who gets the clan weapons........I say at least for a while let everyone get the taste of using clan weapons for a month or two and then only give it to the clanners. Im not a clanner but i would like to use there weapons at least once.

[Valaska]

whiteknight, on 11 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Beagle Probe is not supposed to counter ECM, at least not in the Table Top, in fact its the other way around.
See Total Warfare Page 129 "Active Probe" and Page 134 "ECM Suite"

ECM is not supposed to counter:

• Targeting beyond C3
  
• Sensors beyond benefits of BAP
  
• SSRM's ability to fire
  
• LRM's ability to fire
  
• Other ECM's
  
• Or do anything beyond its bubble.

So we've pretty much thrown table top into the friggen garbage at this point, the guy is trying to come up with ideas that make a play style he enjoyed actually viable again, it doesn't matter if he is pulling idea's from himself or hell even Armored Core, we're not really in the waters of Table Top anymore.

[Noth]

Valaska, on 13 January 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

ECM is not supposed to counter:

• Targeting beyond C3
  
• Sensors beyond benefits of BAP
  
• SSRM's ability to fire
  
• LRM's ability to fire
  
• Other ECM's
  
• Or do anything beyond its bubble.

So we've pretty much thrown table top into the friggen garbage at this point, the guy is trying to come up with ideas that make a play style he enjoyed actually viable again, it doesn't matter if he is pulling idea's from himself or hell even Armored Core, we're not really in the waters of Table Top anymore.

Actually ECM can counter other ECM in TT. It must switch to ECCM mode. Everything else though you are right.

[Valaska]

Ah sorry, I didn't actually go through my book and was going by memory lol.

[Caboose30]

Besides which, LRMs *can* fire under minimum range and they *can* damage targets. I'm sticking to table top, just not sure of a fair implementation.

[Shimmering Sword]

The last few days I've been running a dual LRM20 catapult with tag and only a single medium pulse laser for defense, that's essentially the poster child for "mechs that get wrecked by ECM". I've been doing just fine, scoring 500+ damage a match, often getting a few kills and a lot of assists. It's all about skill and common sense to keep yourself out of trouble.

Just popping in to say that LRMs are where they should be, a support weapon, not a main weapon. I see a lot of reference to TT LRMS made, in which case you can also recall that in TT they are quite weak, nicknamed sand blasters.
Tag WILL cut through ecm bubbles provided an enemy ECM is not within 180 meters of you, which also happens to be the range at which your LRMs are useless anyway so the changes you ask for have no relevance to LRM balancing. This is just another "ECM is OP" thread at the root.