34 replies to this topic

[Dendrobium]

Also agree and disagree. Both my mechs are sniper set up, relying on AC-5's. I will loosely follow the group. If they don't group, I follow the biggest guy that has ecm. If you seem to be a total ***** and, do the same damn thing that every other noncoordinated group does, I'm going to hang back and use you as bait while I either blow the enemy apart or cap for at least a win.

The few times I've run across someone that takes command, they have led us to a win though. I've also been on uncoordinated teams that worked well. The bottom line though, unless I'm paying for someone else to play the game, I can't tell them what to do in a match.

[xRaeder]

Goose Igaly, on 11 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I'm not wrong so much as have an opinion differing of your own. Yes, a 4-man group on the enemy team can mess up your day, but they are far from unbeatable.

I fail to see how this game is any different from any other multiplayer game out there. Take for instance MAG (Massive Action Game) for the PS3. I haven't played it in quite some time, but when I did it was huge teams vs. huge teams. Most people dropped in by themselves, were assigned to a squad, and the squad had a leader. You were expected to follow the squad leader's directions. Sure, someone occassionally ran off and did their own thing, but the command structure encouraged that they stick with the pack. That "herd mentality" mentioned above.

"But this is 8 vs. 8, it doesn't apply!" Doesn't it? You are dropped into a group of others wanting to play and someone needs to take the lead. Take charge and give direction. The concept is the same.

"But you're talking console!" Irrelevant (sp). I'm far from a console gamer, but the concepts still apply. I even recently started playing Tribes Ascend again. Go into a TDM (Team Death Match). Same mechanics.

Yes, I drop with a group. That's the way I choose to play. I have dropped many, many times by myself and have only ever seen what "everyone" complains about in 3 or 4 matches. Yes, we get bulldozed, but that's because no one takes charge. On matches when I took charge and began communicating with my team, our chances of victory increased dramatically.

The points remain valid.

Not really. You started your post by saying you went into games with a premade... which still invalidates most of your points.

I on the other hand am a fully 100% PUG player and seeing as most games are PUGs the game should be designed around that experience, not the elitist 8v8 crowd.

The game currently isn't designed with team play in mind because it is so small scale compared to 90% of other games. I believe even Halo has more people playing on each team than this game does... and that's a console game.

The game needs a dramatic increase in player counts. 12v12 as a starting point... and finally 36v36... it also needs a true dropship mode with respawns or some sort of dropship mutator (get it through your heads elitists... no respawns will still exist as a game mode and you are welcome to it... but the devs have said that respawns in some shape or form are coming).

90% of my "Conquest" games are just TDM without a base cap win. And when it comes down to points it is usually one light Mech alive running around capping while the other team has a slow assault Mech. Still just as lame as the TDM basecap wins were/are. This just goes to show you the ineptitude of PGI as developers... because you can't legitimately call it conquest without some form of respawns.

This game would dominate all other FTP titles if it emulated MW:LL design... or at least offered similar game modes... I came into this game hoping that they would make MW:LL with the Community Warfare layer. But I think CW got axed as a feature because we haven't heard any updates about it since August of last year.

I have stopped playing until the community realizes what they are missing, though I might jump in next Tuesday to see how much of a cluster **** the Spider is going to be without real TT jump jets; if for no other reason than to just laugh at all the fanboys who say this game is fine as far as mechanics goes.

In my mind the whole game is a wash right now because of random matchmaking. ELO won't fix this because you will still get matches that you lose because your team has no ECM and the other team happens to randomly have a bunch of LRM boats/streakcats. Random happenings in a game is bullcrap. It takes away from my enjoyment of the game... and for the record... telling me to join a premade isn't a valid response simply because MOST (probably in the 70% range) are PUG players and until you get most of them to join premades it will continue to be an invalid response.

The game currently has only two team play mechanics. TAG and ECM. ECM is apparently considered OP by many in the community here. I don't happen to think it is in of itself. But it is OP when combined with a random matchmaker that doesn't take into account the various loadouts. The same reason that ECM isn't a good teamwork mechanic also applies to TAG... with random matchmaking you have no idea if you will get someone with TAG or not.

Edited by xRaeder, 11 January 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[Lupin]

Goose Igaly, on 11 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

I would be curious to know if you have ever taken battlefield command and, if you have, what the results were.

No, I normally scout/fire support for a team and I am good at it. Often turning matches into wins by giving intel and disrupting support from other team.
But given size of time, maps and games modes available very limited. Most games turn into brawls.

I have enjoyed a few games where team work used well, at the moment there does not seem a reason to do so as often.

[Fat Samurai]

xRaeder, on 11 January 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

The game currently isn't designed with team play in mind

Yet people whine that 4-men who communicate with VoIP can curbstomp random PUGs because they play as a team.

xRaeder, on 11 January 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

The game needs a dramatic increase in player counts. 12v12 as a starting point... and finally 36v36...

So "elitist 8 man premades" can get bigger and curbstomp everyone more easily? Because I don't see any teamwork on BF3. You spawn, move forward, kill whoever you can, die.

xRaeder, on 11 January 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

respawns or some sort of dropship mutator

You spawn, move forward, kill whoever you can, die. RESPAWN and repeat. You want to take one of the few Multiplayer Online games in the market where death is something that you actively try to avoid because it penalizes you and make it a LL clone.

xRaeder, on 11 January 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

The game currently has only two team play mechanics.

And focusing fire on an enemy, surrounding an enemy that's going after your assaults with a lighter mech and stripping him of his read armour in 2 alphas, leading your enemies with a scout towards your waiting team's killing field (f.e. the arch in forest colony), sneaking mediums behind the enemy blob so you can get at their LRM boats, cresting the ridge in the ice map at the same time so enemy can't focus fire on your mechs as soon as they appear, back capping and drawing half the enemy towards their base while you team pounds the other half...

You know what I see in PUG matches? That NOBODY takes command and tries to put some sense of direction into the other players. When I do it, my rate of winning increases dramatically.

You know what I don't see when people whine about the power of premades? Anyone that has tried doing that.

[Agmar Strick]

I agree with OP, from my experience, pugs typically respond to any command or tactics, they are welcomed.

Personally, I find the pattern of mech traffic at the start of the game interesting, if there is no absolutely clear path, then mechs will circle around until someone strikes out in a certain direction. Once that happens, (almost) everyone fall in line.

[M4rtyr]

Fat Samurai, on 11 January 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Nicely put, Goose


Invalidates his entire argument? With a handle like "Team Leader" one must assume that you have a team, right? As in, people who regularly drop with you?

not exactly a PUG if its half premade...

most PUGs just play follow the leader anyway, sadly I hate waiting for them to figure out who that is and so I've got a terrible K/D ratio since I'm always at the front of the group myself. But yes, being in a premade does invalidate ones claims of how their PUGs aren't sloppy.

Honestly people would do well to die more and spend time spectating in PUGs... hate to sound so negative, but there are some really terrible players I've riden along with, and I've not even played for a whole week yet.

Edited by M4rtyr, 12 January 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Many people are scared by team work.

The same people would rather play Tetris if all the shapes were the same.

[xRaeder]

Fat Samurai, on 12 January 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Yet people whine that 4-men who communicate with VoIP can curbstomp random PUGs because they play as a team.



So "elitist 8 man premades" can get bigger and curbstomp everyone more easily? Because I don't see any teamwork on BF3. You spawn, move forward, kill whoever you can, die.


You spawn, move forward, kill whoever you can, die. RESPAWN and repeat. You want to take one of the few Multiplayer Online games in the market where death is something that you actively try to avoid because it penalizes you and make it a LL clone.





And focusing fire on an enemy, surrounding an enemy that's going after your assaults with a lighter mech and stripping him of his read armour in 2 alphas, leading your enemies with a scout towards your waiting team's killing field (f.e. the arch in forest colony), sneaking mediums behind the enemy blob so you can get at their LRM boats, cresting the ridge in the ice map at the same time so enemy can't focus fire on your mechs as soon as they appear, back capping and drawing half the enemy towards their base while you team pounds the other half...

You know what I see in PUG matches? That NOBODY takes command and tries to put some sense of direction into the other players. When I do it, my rate of winning increases dramatically.

You know what I don't see when people whine about the power of premades? Anyone that has tried doing that.

3rd party VOIP is 3rd party... thus not a game mechanic that MWO currently has. Thus it is not included in the list of team play built in features.

A game with server browsers will allow people to leave premades. See part of the problem that MWO has is that players have no control over where they are fighting. Being trolled by a 32 man premade... well there are other servers out there... and that server will be a giant circle jerk/ghost town if that premade doesn't split up... JUST LIKE IN ANY OTHER MP-FPS.

So ******* what? Maybe I prefer that kind of gameplay. Who are you to make a judgement about what I find fun. And anyway... no one is talking about removing the single life matches. Just adding to current modes. What are you afraid of? That like respawn mode in MW4 it will be the most popular mode in the game and you will have few people playing single respawn?

Focus fire and all the tactics you mentioned are NOT explicitly supported by game mechanics... so you can just stop harping on those points. All of those things are PLAYERS making decisions... not game mechanics encouraging that behavior.

Nobody takes command because the game is stupid and over in 5 minutes. Who the hell wants to put that kind of effort into a game that only lasts 5 minutes?

[PANZERBUNNY]

But if we had respawn the game would last longer than 5 minutes!

[Vassago Rain]

[xRaeder]

PANZERBUNNY, on 12 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

But if we had respawn the game would last longer than 5 minutes!

Yes it would.

[Fat Samurai]

xRaeder, on 12 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

So ******* what? Maybe I prefer that kind of gameplay. Who are you to make a judgement about what I find fun.

Me? No one. I'm not making absolutely any judgement. Have fun whatever way you want. I'm the one not trying to radically change one of the main aspects of the game in order to fit my personal tastes.

xRaeder, on 12 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Being trolled by a 32 man premade... well there are other servers out there... and that server will be a giant circle jerk/ghost town if that premade doesn't split up... JUST LIKE IN ANY OTHER MP-FPS.

What is the problem then? Player team size or number of servers? Please make up your mind.

xRaeder, on 12 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Focus fire and all the tactics you mentioned are NOT explicitly supported by game mechanics... so you can just stop harping on those points. All of those things are PLAYERS making decisions... not game mechanics encouraging that behavior.

When you do some of the thinks I posted, your team wins more often. When every player in your team runs to a different place in the map and fight on his own, your team loses more often.

I cannot think of a stronger encouragement.

xRaeder, on 12 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Nobody takes command because the game is stupid and over in 5 minutes. Who the hell wants to put that kind of effort into a game that only lasts 5 minutes?

I really don't know what to say. If the game is stupid and typing 6 short sentences in Command mode per match is too much effort, why are you playing it?

I thank you for this sentence anyway, because it provides some support to my theory that people who says there is no teamplay in this game don't do a thing to actually encourage it.

Edited by Fat Samurai, 12 January 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Vaneshi SnowCrash]

I remember when the command position was spanky new. I dropped in with a PUG (who were all pugging, no small groups) and someone took the big chair. It was awesome, we all had fun and whilst close it was a win.

Then I'm back in the launcher with no idea who those people were and if I'd see them again. It's all well and good to say "Join a group" or indeed "Form a group" but the game itself is actively hostile to this taking place.

It should be as simple as "Here are the people you just played against" and I start sending messages and friend requests.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Vaneshi SnowCrash, on 12 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I remember when the command position was spanky new. I dropped in with a PUG (who were all pugging, no small groups) and someone took the big chair. It was awesome, we all had fun and whilst close it was a win.

Then I'm back in the launcher with no idea who those people were and if I'd see them again. It's all well and good to say "Join a group" or indeed "Form a group" but the game itself is actively hostile to this taking place.

It should be as simple as "Here are the people you just played against" and I start sending messages and friend requests.

This would be a good idea, as in pre and post game lobbies even. It doesn't seem as if they want to implement this though. From comments made by some devs they seem to think that the ideal is a CQB. They seem to be having real problems with using the game engine to do anything but some basic things, even producing maps takes forever with bugs for quite a while afterwards.

[siLve00]

Goose Igaly, on 11 January 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

I have read many threads complaining about teamwork in PUG drops. So many elude to players who refuse to listen to plans, run solo, and overall "ruin the whole game."

I'm afraid I must politely disagree with these claims. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but only a small percentage of the matches I'm in have had these problems. I tend to drop in a 3-man or 4-man. We do our thing together,

i did stop reading there...


with 4men you dont need the other 4 you just kill 8 of your enemys and win ^^
if you cant win with 4 ppl who are playing together... you guys should go back to MW driving school.
the problem is.. that most of the time even 4 ppl are just doing "their" stuff and leaving every1 behind instead of saying smt.

w/e... if every player would just use his brain when he does play.... it would be much more fun.

Edited by siLve00, 12 January 2013 - 11:59 AM.