104 replies to this topic

[Rorvik]

Thanks again for the info, Stormwolf; lots of interesting information. Just a few comments:

Stormwolf, on 13 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

I wasn't really explaining it right, all the mechs have their strenghts and weaknesses, but none of them are optimized. In advanced gameplay you even have good and bad quirks to each mech. The Wolfhound for instance has a full head ejection system.

But aside from that, in TT we have Battle Values. These values are calculated from the tonnage, firepower and equipment the mech mounts. This system can be rather crude, but it works most of the time, here are some examples:

Awesome AWS-8Q: 1,605
Awesome AWS-9M 1,812
Enforcer ENF-4R: 1,032
Mad Cat/Timber Wolf Prime: 2,737

The difference in power between the Clan mech and the IS mechs should be quite evident here. The Timber Wolf is almost at triple the rating of the Enforcer. Yet teaming the Enforcer up with the AWS-9M should give you a good a crack at pulling of a victory.

You can even have uneven teams this way, a horde of lights can be fielded against a couple of assaults. Players will quickly catch on to this and will probably start balancing their teams accordingly. They might even pick a number of level 1 designs to keep the BV rating down.

I haven't really played the non-trial Mechs outside my RVN-4X (currently the only one I own), but having played with the Mech lab, yeah, some loadouts are more optimal than others, but I'm not sure there is a way to make an "OP" build (at least, not one that doesn't rely on lagshield, which is not a design-related issue).

I understand that some people don't like the theorycrafting / min-maxing gameplay...there's nothing I can really say to that. Personally, I enjoy it, but that's me; I understand it's not for everyone.

What I can say is that a game like this would field test the Mechs better than, say, whatever the TT game designers had in mind when they created a Mech. (And that's not even considering that the needs of the TT game are different from a Mech-sim game, or that some reasonable aspects of a Mech-sim would unnecessarily bog down the TT game.)

For example, the CN9-D comes with an LRM, a Med Laser and an LB 10-X and an XL-300 engine. On paper, it might seem like this is a well balanced Mech, but in practice, I've had issues with it. It's fast, so you can circle-strafe other Mechs fairly well, but the LB 10-X is damn near useless. I spent a good minute plus circle-strafing a badly damaged Dragon and was unable to destroy it, thanks to the LB 10-X spreading the damage around. And on the city map I was on, the LRM had very limited use; an SRM would have been more useful.

Also, none of the stock Mechs have an AMS, which seems insane, as you can easily become easy pickings against teams with LRM boats. At 1.5 tons for one AMS and 1000 rounds of ammo, it seems crazy not to have it on every Mech.

Stormwolf, on 13 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Battletech is the "future of the 80's", it's by no means realistic.

No, of course not, but C3 looks like the "wheel" joke in Futurama. The unofficial joke is the reason you never see anything with wheels in Futurama (everything hovers or flies) is because the technology of the wheel had been lost. Now, as a joke in a comedy series, it's pretty funny, but in a more "serious" setting like BT it just doesn't work.

Stormwolf, on 13 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Nope, ECM only disrupts, C3, BAP, Artemis and NARC. LRM's and SSRM's behave normally. Additionally you can still spot them on your radar. Now the Radar can be fooled if you switch to "Ghost Targets", but you'll lose the disruption effect.

Ok, this sounds fairly reasonable; I wouldn't mind if this change went into effect, at the very least just to test it out.

[Stormwolf]

Rorvik, on 13 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Thanks again for the info, Stormwolf; lots of interesting information. Just a few comments:



I haven't really played the non-trial Mechs outside my RVN-4X (currently the only one I own), but having played with the Mech lab, yeah, some loadouts are more optimal than others, but I'm not sure there is a way to make an "OP" build (at least, not one that doesn't rely on lagshield, which is not a design-related issue).

I understand that some people don't like the theorycrafting / min-maxing gameplay...there's nothing I can really say to that. Personally, I enjoy it, but that's me; I understand it's not for everyone.

What I can say is that a game like this would field test the Mechs better than, say, whatever the TT game designers had in mind when they created a Mech. (And that's not even considering that the needs of the TT game are different from a Mech-sim game, or that some reasonable aspects of a Mech-sim would unnecessarily bog down the TT game.)

For example, the CN9-D comes with an LRM, a Med Laser and an LB 10-X and an XL-300 engine. On paper, it might seem like this is a well balanced Mech, but in practice, I've had issues with it. It's fast, so you can circle-strafe other Mechs fairly well, but the LB 10-X is damn near useless. I spent a good minute plus circle-strafing a badly damaged Dragon and was unable to destroy it, thanks to the LB 10-X spreading the damage around. And on the city map I was on, the LRM had very limited use; an SRM would have been more useful.

It's funny that you mention the CN9-D, especially when you can swap out the cluster ammo for slug ammo in the TT. The LBX10 can essentially be used as a AC10.

The mechs themselves have backstories to them, the Hunchback HBK-4G for instance was a urban fighter created for the Reunification War. It was never intended to be fielded on areas like Caustic.

Quote

Also, none of the stock Mechs have an AMS, which seems insane, as you can easily become easy pickings against teams with LRM boats. At 1.5 tons for one AMS and 1000 rounds of ammo, it seems crazy not to have it on every Mech.

Most of the current mechs are level 1 designs, AMS is a level 2 tech. And besides, most of the stock mechs don't carry more then two tons of LRM ammo for every launcher. I should also point out that the IS version of the AMS isn't all that great in the canon.

It's funny how we don't have the mechs and their variants that actually carry AMS:

Warhammer WHM-7M*
Thunderbolt TDR-9S*
Crusader CRD-5M*
Exterminator EXT-4D
Bombardier BMB-12D

*We can't have these for legal issues, see the unseen for more info.

Quote

No, of course not, but C3 looks like the "wheel" joke in Futurama. The unofficial joke is the reason you never see anything with wheels in Futurama (everything hovers or flies) is because the technology of the wheel had been lost. Now, as a joke in a comedy series, it's pretty funny, but in a more "serious" setting like BT it just doesn't work.

It's simply part of the setting, especially now it's rather important that they don't have this tech. All the mercs and pirates in the Periphery were overrun by the Clans and they never knew what hit them:

Spoiler

Over across the valley, Phelan saw a small, birdlike Locust ducking and dodging between reddish mounds of rock. The awkwardness of its gait was accentuated by the large hops the asteroid's lighter gravity allowed it. Missiles arced up and over the hills behind it, peppering the whole area around the fleeing 'Mech with explosions. Staggered barrages herded the Locust diagonally across the hillside, then another 'Mech appeared in a narrow pass between two bluffs.

Phelan frowned heavily as the computer sharpened and tried to label the image of the new 'Mech. Confused, the computer identified the 'Mech first as a Catapult, then almost immediately reclassified it as a Marauder. It's got that hunched-over torso with the bird legs common to both designs, all right. And it's got the Catapult's wing-mounted LRM launchers, but it also has the Marauder's weapon pods. And I've never seen that flat gray color scheme before, either. Who and what the hell is it?

The unidentified 'Mech jabbed both blocky pods at the Locust, sending out twin ruby lasers to skewer the Locust's right flank. The first beam melted the armor from the Locust's torso, making it drip steaming to the asteroid's surface while exposing the 'Mech's skeleton and internal structures.

The second beam stabbed through the hole the first had made. Its fiery touch ignited the machine gun ammo stored in the 'Mech's chest, then destroyed the Locust's gyrostabilizers. As the light 'Mech's right side sagged in on itself, the 'Mech stumbled and rolled down the hillside. Its headlong spill ended with a jarring collision against a huge iron boulder the color of dried blood.

Three more of Ryan's bandit 'Mechs broke from cover and tried to rush across the valley toward Phelan's hidden watch position. Two of them, the humanoid Griffin he'd seen earlier and another humanoid 'Mech, a Panther, darted from cover to cover. Both pilots used their 'Mechs' jump jets to quickly cross areas strewn with rocks too small for cover, but large enough to slow their sprint speed. Bringing up the rear came another humanoid 'Mech. Instead of arms, it sprouted twin-barrelled weapon pods. Larger than either the Griffin or Panther, and without jump jets, it moved more slowly than either of its compatriots. Phelan sensed the pilot's panic as he guided the Rifleman down the hillside and discovered he'd boxed himself in.
"Hound Leader, continue your present heading to make the plain. We've got help trapping the rats."

Confusion rang through Jack's voice. "Who ... what?"
Phelan shrugged and moved from cover. "I can't identify our help, but they're on the ridge a kilometer off, driving Ryan toward us."
Tang laughed lightly. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend?"

Phelan saw Tang's black and red Blackjack appear down on the edge of the plain. Tang's barrel-chested, humanoid 'Mech had arms that ended in the autocannon muzzles, with the muzzle of a medium laser riding piggyback on the outside of the forearm. The scout lance leader wove his 'Mech through the dolmen at the nearest edge of the plain, closing on Ryan's 'Mechs without being seen.

Opposite Tang's position, two more strange-looking 'Mechs entered the battlefield. Phelan's computer again vacillated in assigning a label to the new machines. It's calling them Warhammers because of the chassis type, but the addition of Marauder-type arms instead of the particle projection cannons is giving it fits. Both 'Mechs moved in on the trapped Rifleman.
Ryan's Griffin turned its attention to Tang's approaching Blackjack. Phelan tightbeamed a warning to his Lieutenant, then brought his 'Mech around from behind the outcropping he'd been using for cover. Opening a widebeam broadcast, he snapped a challenge at the pirate captain. "Over here, you excuse for retroactive birth control. We're the ones you said would never get you. Move it. Let's prove natural selection was correct."

The Griffin reoriented itself toward him, then Phelan saw it freeze for a moment. The Wolfhound Phelan piloted had a humanoid form arid walked upright, but its unusual silhouette gave most enemy pilots reason to pause. Its right wrist ended in the muzzle of a large laser, and three medium laser ports dotted its scarlet chest in a triangular pattern. Most startling, however, was the 'Mech's head and cockpit assembly whose design accented and heightened the implied threat of the Wolfhound's lean deadliness.

The head had been crafted for both image and function. Its jutting muzzle and twin viewports combined with the upthrust triangular sensor panels on either side to give the Wolfhound a canine appearance. Phelan had taken the image one step further and painted the 'Mech's muzzle to appear that the war machine was baring white fangs in a fierce snarl. Aluminum strips inlaid beneath the paint job outlined the teeth so that the 'Mech's wolfish grin appeared even on magscan and infrared sensor modes.

Phelan started his 'Mech down the hillside as Tang's Blackjack broke from cover and raised both its arms.

He ofcourse gets his *** kicked by the mystery mech later but manages to transmit his battle recordings, which leads to this iconic part:

Spoiler

Myndo shook her head, then hooked a lock of hair back behind her left ear. "Not being a Mech Warrior, perhaps I don't understand the significance you attach to that information."
Focht smiled indulgently. "Aside from the data being unique, the fact that it was broadcast is remarkable. Each 'Mech has a battle recorder that keeps track of everything from sensor inputs to a complete diagnostics record for the 'Mech. After a battle, providing the recorder remains intact, the action may be reviewed. When plugged into a simulator, for example, pilots can see exactly what happened in the battle, including all their monitors and instruments."
The Precentor Martial pressed his hands together. "Kell's broadcast was a desperate move, because sending the data out on such a widebeam meant his enemies as well as his friends could get it. Granted the transmission quality was bad, but that is more due to the electromagnetic properties of Sisyphus's Lament than any problem with the equipment at that point."

Something dreadful tugged at the corners of her consciousness, but the Primus could not identify it. "So, Morgan Kell's whelp does not have his father's nerves of steel and panicked ..."
Focht raised a hand to stop her. "Phelan may not be his father, but that battle tape shows no lack of nerve. He identified the forces he faced as unusual in the extreme, and realized he would not escape that encounter. His broadcast was a message from the dead—a warning to those who survived."

The Precentor Martial clapped his hands once. "Computer, project the holographic reconstruction of the primary BattleMech from the Kell tape, clarified and at one-tenth scale."
In silent compliance, the computer materialized a holographic image of the Catapult/Marauder b@stard that had broken the Locust and destroyed Phelan Kell's Wolfhound. Even at only a meter in height, the machine's image retained all its menace. It feels so malevolent. A shiver ran down Myndo's spine and she fought to keep revulsion from her face.

The Precentor Martial, however, was not looking in her direction. He slowly circled the projection like a wolf stalking prey, his gaze flicking from point to point seeking out flaws in the design. When he found none, a smile crept onto his lips and he nodded with admiration and respect.

"Primus, I have taken to calling this model the Mad Cat. As with the Catapult 'Mech, the machine boasts two longrange missile pods, one on each side of the forward-thrust torso. It walks on bird's legs, which gives it a hopping-bobbing gait, though this pilot seems to have been able to conquer that tendency. Quite an achievement, with the low gravity on the asteroid. In addition to the standard Catapult features, two Marauder-type weapons pods have been added. They have large lasers over medium lasers. Two more medium lasers, one on each side of the torso and two machine guns mounted in the center torso, round out the weapons selection. Yes, a most impressive machine."

Indeed. With an army of such 'Mechs, we could make Blake's dream of a united humanity a reality in short order. Myndo stared through the image at Focht. "I shall order our armorers to modify our existing Catapults to this configuration."

Anger creased the Precentor Martial's brow for an instant, then disappeared as if banished by the force of his will. "I am afraid that is not possible, Primus. As you saw in the battletape, Phelan Kell attacked the machine but failed to damage it. Were we to create a 'Mech with such an array of weapons, we would be unable to armor it sufficiently. On the other hand, if we gave it the armor it needed, the 'Mech would be unable to move because of the current power-to-weight ratios available in our fusion engines. In short, either this 'Mech has incredibly light but durable armor, or it has a power plant of a design surpassing anything we have to offer."
Myndo's mouth went sour. New technology in the hands of someone other than ComStar! "That's terrible!"

Focht's grim nod echoed her concern. "It gets worse. The ranges at which these new 'Mechs were able to hit their targets is 300 to 400 percent better than what our current targeting and delivery system allows. It also appears that their heat compensators are much better or else their pilots can tolerate higher levels of heat because the rate of fire shown would have virtually fried any 'Mech known in the Successor States."

Myndo chewed her lower lip to stop it from trembling. "Explanation?"

The Precentor Martial shrugged. "Their 'Mechs show evidence of technology beyond what we know. My advisors and I wrestled with the question of where these 'Mechs might originate and who piloted them right up until the time I left to join you here."

The Primus's dark eyes half-closed. "Are they Kerensky's army come back to haunt us?"

[Outlaw]

Necroing because i think this needs to be brought up again. Several friends of mine as well as myself were talking about this and with the prevalance of cheese builds it would be a nice break from open customization matches. The idea i had for this would be 3 extra settings Stock-Any, Stock-Conquest and Stock-Assault, and instead of having to re-equip your mechs, instead the game would read what mech you are in and automatically revert it to its stock configuration for that match without actually changing it in your mechlab.

[TheForce]

Outlaw, on 04 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Necroing because i think this needs to be brought up again. Several friends of mine as well as myself were talking about this and with the prevalance of cheese builds it would be a nice break from open customization matches. The idea i had for this would be 3 extra settings Stock-Any, Stock-Conquest and Stock-Assault, and instead of having to re-equip your mechs, instead the game would read what mech you are in and automatically revert it to its stock configuration for that match without actually changing it in your mechlab.

This would be great!

But how could PGI make money off of stock games?

[Braggart]

TheForce, on 05 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

This would be great!

But how could PGI make money off of stock games?

consumables, and you still have to purchase those mechs to play them.

The payouts could be lower for stock to. I just want stock gameplay as an option.