104 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Because no one plays Stock Mechs. Stock Mechs just isn't balanced. There are several Stock configurations that are deemed to be best/ OP'd by players and that is what you see.

Only time I ever played Stock previously was in Leagues where it was a random setting from a battle generator. No one ever picked it on purpose.

At some point MWO may have it as an optional setting, but putting in the time to just add that one setting option would be a collosal waste of time.

[Greyfyl]

Actually I used to pick stock mech matches all the time when I was bidding for my Starlance MW3 league.

I would take this suggestion one step further and suggest a mode that is not only stock but also the matchmaker determines the chassis for both teams, as a player you only get to pick what variant you want. Keep the drops balanced and you would also see a wide variety of mechs constantly,

[Fabe]

Adding in too many modifiers for game modes could result every one getting the "No game found" message after hitting launch as the player base gets spread too thin.

Edited by Fabe, 12 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

They actually don't, C3 was designed for that specific purpose. Now spotting does help allied units, but It'll only help LRM boats and artillery.

From a fluff-POV. Within the rules C3 actually helps your aim.

[Yokaiko]

Thorn Hallis, on 12 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

From a fluff-POV. Within the rules C3 actually helps your aim.

Quote

As well as serving to share the linked lance/companies targeting data, the C3 Command Unit also duplicates the function of Target Acquisition Gear and can designate a target for Arrow IV homing missiles and Semi-Guided LRMs.

http://www.sarna.net...C3_Command_Unit

[Stormwolf]

Thorn Hallis, on 12 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

From a fluff-POV. Within the rules C3 actually helps your aim.

Sure, but only because you get data from a allied unit.

And to help people out who don't have access to books like techmanual:

C3

Quote

Introduced: 3050 (Draconis Combine)
The Command/Control/Communications (C3) system is easily
among the Inner Sphere’s most potent recent inventions. It is also
one of the most original, considering that it emerged not as the
result of a Star League tech recovery, but as a new application of
technologies. As much a revolution in battlefi eld technology as one
of combat philosophy for its creators in the Draconis Combine, the
system is essentially an elaborate tight-beam communications suite,
designed to link the sensors and targeting systems of up to a full lance
of friendly units in a single, closed network. The C3 system enables
those within its network to draw targeting data from one another and
coordinate fi re with amazing ease. As long as eff ective weapon ranges
and lines of fi re permit, a member of a C3 network can essentially strike
at a target with the same accuracy as the nearest friendly network
member. Moreover, units that mount a C3 master computer—with the
other network members using slave nodes—can use the computer’s
coordination as an improvised TAG system.

The system, of course, has its limits. Only units in the same network—
generally a single lance, though creative deployment of multiple
master computers per unit may allow for networks as large as a
company—may share targeting data in this fashion. Friendly units with
systems outside the network cannot simply “tap in” at will. Further, the
network signals and data streams are susceptible to jamming by enemy
ECMs. Worst of all, the hierarchical nature of the system means that the
loss of the master computer to destruction or ECM interference crashes
the entire network, leaving its surviving units to fend for themselves.

Targeting computer:

Quote

Introduced: 2860 (Clan Mongoose), 3062 (Federated Suns)
The Clans prize the enhanced range and accuracy of their weapons,
seen by Clan warriors as an extension of themselves. With close-quarters
combat considered anathema (unless outside the cockpit), all Clan
technological advancements focus on making ranged combat deadlier.
Their “waste-not, want-not” philosophy also screams for more precision, to
minimize collateral damage even when the weapons are live.
It therefore comes as no surprise that, in addition to the enhanced
variations of Star League-era missile targeting systems, the Clans also
developed advanced targeting systems to aid their direct-fi re weaponry.
Only recently matched by our own engineers at the NAIS, the targeting
computer is a sophisticated “smart” system that enhances the accuracy of
lasers, particle cannons, gauss rifl es and autocannons. More than just a
basic sensor tracking and targeting array, the targeting computer actually
helps its gunner aim physically. This is accomplished through a series of
recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers that combine to counter
much of the routine weapon drift caused by the shooter’s own lurching
motions, muzzle recoil and other environmental conditions. All of this is
mated to core computing elements that help the pilot adjust more quickly
for atmospheric conditions and such, providing a more accurate “lead” for
almost every shot.

The resulting increase in accuracy is light-years ahead of standard targeting
through sensors alone. Not only can it make direct-fi re shots more
accurate, but experienced gunners using this system can even narrow
their targeting focus to particular body areas on many targets for more
surgical precision. Understandably, this ability works best with more precise
weaponry; cluster-shot LB-X autocannons, rapid-cycling pulse lasers
and Ultra or rotary ACs fi ring in their faster modes lose the acuity necessary
for this kind of fi nesse.

[Greyfyl]

Fabe, on 12 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Adding in too many modifiers for game modes could result every one getting the "No game found" message after hitting launch as the player base gets spread too thin.

Only if they continue down the current path of a game that really doesn't off much variety and is losing players to boredom.

[Dakkath]

I'd play the stock-mech only option exclusively. I am more of a TT/Canon purist, so I rarely deviate from the stock chassis designs. I'm more into immersing myself into the BT universe/lore than developing a super-laser boat mech to raise up my KDR.

8-8 deathmatch currently does not favor stock anything at this time. It favors boated builds (spreadsheets in mechs) load-outs to farm as much xp/cbills as possible for the player. BT lore just wasn't like that at all, thus balanced mech builds were very important for the mechwarrior.

[Terran123rd]

Darkaiser, on 12 January 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

...SNIP...

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You, sir, are insane. Good day.

[Rorvik]

I'm a little confused by this thread. While I'm not exactly "new" to the MechWarrior / BattleTech universe, this is technically my first MechWarrior game (well, VIDEO game, as I briefly played the Wizards of the Coast BattleTech trading card game back in the day). My brother and I watched the BattleTech animated series back in the day (yes, yes, I know it was "very loosely" based on the BT lore).

More importantly, my brother played MW3 and MW4 back in the day, and he really enjoyed the sim style of MW3. We both agree that the sim-style of MW3 to be more "authentic" to the MW / BT experience than the arcade-y MW4 and MechAssault games.

However, having never played the BT TT game, I was always under the impression that, at least in as far as the MechWarrior "sub-genre" was concerned, modifying the loadout of your Mech was one its appeals and selling points.

So I'm a bit surprised that people are saying it's "not canon" and that we should all be playing with stock Mechs.

However, given the existence of canon Mechs like the Yen-Lo-Wang et al, surely there is precedent for customizing one's own Mech (obviously within reason)?

I fail to see how not allowing (reasonable) customization of one's Mech would make this game better. In fact, I see it as killing one if its biggest appeals.

But maybe I'm missing something here. Perhaps someone can go into more detail and help me understand...

[Stormwolf]

Rorvik, on 12 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

However, given the existence of canon Mechs like the Yen-Lo-Wang et al, surely there is precedent for customizing one's own Mech (obviously within reason)?

I fail to see how not allowing (reasonable) customization of one's Mech would make this game better. In fact, I see it as killing one if its biggest appeals.

But maybe I'm missing something here. Perhaps someone can go into more detail and help me understand...

There are a number of reasons why customs are rare:

1. Most house armies don't allow customs except for their elite units.
2. Customizing is quite expensive, the most important factor here is a lack of knowledge. Not all customized mechs will work efficiently because of this. The BattleMaster Calvin II variant suffers from technical glitches that lock up the weapons for instance.
3. Certain refits like installing endosteel require a factory to do so, this is not easy to do without the proper connections.
4. The Yen-Lo-Wang refit was backed by a Solaris Stable. Justin Allard also had sufficient funds due to betting on himself in a match everybody believed to be rigged in favor of his enemy.

Customs are a noveltly in the BT universe, this novelty is lost if everybody can customize rides.

You also make the entire idea behind omnimechs obsolete by allowing the current degree of customization. The entire plot that led up to development of the Inner Sphere omnimechs has been rendered moot as such:

http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunder
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

[Rorvik]

Thanks for the quick reply, Stormwolf. Some follow-up questions:

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

1. Most house armies don't allow customs except for their elite units.

Understandable, but it could be argued that you are one such unit. Which kind of brings me to question, what exactly is the context of MWO anyway? I know it's set in 3050 and I've heard about "community warfare", but so far it just seems to be a game where all you really do is skirmishes with Mechs. It's not like, say, World of Warcraft, where there is a very specific time and place with a specific story.

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

2. Customizing is quite expensive, the most important factor here is a lack of knowledge. Not all customized mechs will work efficiently because of this. The BattleMaster Calvin II variant suffers from technical glitches that lock up the weapons for instance.

Knowledge is gained through research and experience. If a player customizes a poor Mech build, then it will be the player's fault, and he / she can use it as a learning experience to make further customizations that may work out better (better info from the game's UI would help a hell of a lot, though). He / she can also elicit help on the forums, YouTube, etc. Newbie ignorance may be a good reason to limit new players to trial mechs (and how about a tutorial?), but not for an indefinite amount of time.

Also, how would game balance necessarily work? Without the ability to modify a Mech, would the game not be based on a paper-rock-scissor system?

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

3. Certain refits like installing endosteel require a factory to do so, this is not easy to do without the proper connections.

Again, this brings me back to asking about the context in which MWO plays out and what our role in it as players is.

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

4. The Yen-Lo-Wang refit was backed by a Solaris Stable. Justin Allard also had sufficient funds due to betting on himself in a match everybody believed to be rigged in favor of his enemy.

Customs are a noveltly in the BT universe, this novelty is lost if everybody can customize rides.

Understandable, but there has to be some kind of middle ground here. What if...

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

You also make the entire idea behind omnimechs obsolete by allowing the current degree of customization. The entire plot that led up to development of the Inner Sphere omnimechs has been rendered moot as such:

...MWO took place during or after the Clan invasions and OmniMechs were available?

[Stormwolf]

Rorvik, on 12 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Thanks for the quick reply, Stormwolf. Some follow-up questions:

Understandable, but it could be argued that you are one such unit. Which kind of brings me to question, what exactly is the context of MWO anyway? I know it's set in 3050 and I've heard about "community warfare", but so far it just seems to be a game where all you really do is skirmishes with Mechs. It's not like, say, World of Warcraft, where there is a very specific time and place with a specific story.

PGI hasn't been making use of the current setting, quite a shame really, right now we are in a interesting period with politicial tension building up again between the houses. Right now we are in the same time period as this novel:

http://www.sarna.net...Lethal_Heritage

Quote

Knowledge is gained through research and experience. If a player customizes a poor Mech build, then it will be the player's fault, and he / she can use it as a learning experience to make further customizations that may work out better (better info from the game's UI would help a hell of a lot, though). He / she can also elicit help on the forums, YouTube, etc. Newbie ignorance may be a good reason to limit new players to trial mechs (and how about a tutorial?), but not for an indefinite amount of time.

It's not really the player, but rather the industry of the Inner Sphere. The technical know how of the Inner Sphere has been going downhill for the last 300 years. This was mainly due to Comstar targeting scientists and destroying databases.

However, a few decades ago the Gray Death Legion discovered the Helm Memory Core. This core contained quite a bit of lost knowledge when it comes to mechs and weapons (the core also contained info on medicine, agroculture, etc).

Right now we are in a period where the Inner Sphere is seeing new technologies being deployed (endo, ecm, gauss, pulse lasers, XL engines, etc).

Quote

Also, how would game balance necessarily work? Without the ability to modify a Mech, would the game not be based on a paper-rock-scissor system?

Not quite, right now we have two tech bases in game. Level 1 (CN9-A, AS7-D, CPLT-C1) and the newer Level 2 (CN9-D, AS7-K, CTF-3D). Pretty much most of the level 1 mechs have become obsolete in the current setting, this also also fuels the dislike for certain stock designs. Right now we are seeing that the CN9-A is being phased out and sold to mercs while the CN9-D is being produced as a replacement model.

There is a constant evolution going on with these models. The IS powers will stop producing certain models and replace them with entirely new ones in time.

In TT we have RAT's (Random Assignment Table's), every faction has their own mech selection to choose from. The Draconis Combine for instance fields large amounts of Dragons, Panthers, Jenners, Hatamoto Chi's and Maulers along with a few general designs.

The mech availability and stock designs have been matched against each other. The Wolfhound for instance was designed to stand up to the Panther. In turn the Wolf Trap was designed to kill the Wolfhound. This will ofcourse turn out differently for the Draconis Combine when they fight the Federated Suns or a Merc unit.

However due to a limited mech availability the mech selection has been made available to every faction.

With a larger mech selection we could get more varied teams up and running.

Quote

Again, this brings me back to asking about the context in which MWO plays out and what our role in it as players is.

Not really disclosed by the devs, but I'm guessing house soldiers and mercs who try their luck at making a living. Life in the Inner Sphere is a rather harsh existence, I'd personally recommend the Gray Death and Warrior Trilogies to gain some insight into what's what.

Quote

Understandable, but there has to be some kind of middle ground here. What if...



...MWO took place during or after the Clan invasions and OmniMechs were available?

Well the Clan invasion is 3 months away, but we won't see the first IS omni till 3053.

A far more ideal setting would have been the Jih@d, here's my reasoning:
- The techbase is far more advanced and the industry indeed supports more detailed customizations.
- Omni's are more common, the Word of Blake fields 6 brand new omni designs. Think salvage here.
- Clan tech is being sold by Clan Diamond Shark to Inner Sphere powers who can afford their prices.
- House, Merc and Clan players are more likely to team up in this setting.
- Mechs like the Uziel, Thanatos and Mad Cat MK II are around and are being produced in large numbers. Many people love these designs, but they simply aren't around in 3050.
- This conflict picks up right after the Fedcom civil war (MW4), the bloody hand at the end of MW4: Mercs is gonna make sense.
- The Word of Blake is a fairly fun faction, I wouldn't play them, but i figure that lots players would have fun with their mechs.
- Potential for Clan players to participate in the Wars of Reaving.

[ArmandTulsen]

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

I would play stock designs exclusively if we had a stock only mode.

I'm sick and tired of having to min max a design to even be able to play this game.

And while we are at it:
- Remove that zero crit/tonnage C3 system, people should only be able to share targeting data with C3 installed.
- Make ECM like in the TT, it would remove 99% of the problems people have with it. It should only take out things like NARC, C3, Artemis and BAP. Regular missile weapons are unaffected.
- And seriously? Conquest mode? Look up stuff like the Battle for Twycross and similar books for team vs team missions. I somehow can't picture Victor Steiner-Davion and Galen Cox parking their mechs next to a probe to beat their enemies.

This, so much.

[Rorvik]

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

PGI hasn't been making use of the current setting, quite a shame really, right now we are in a interesting period with politicial tension building up again between the houses. Right now we are in the same time period as this novel:

http://www.sarna.net...Lethal_Heritage

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Not really disclosed by the devs, but I'm guessing house soldiers and mercs who try their luck at making a living. Life in the Inner Sphere is a rather harsh existence, I'd personally recommend the Gray Death and Warrior Trilogies to gain some insight into what's what.

Thanks for the info. What I meant was more related to the latter: what will our role be in MWO. Are we mercs or soldiers in a chosen factions army or something else? But it appears it hasn't been made clear yet. I am, of course, assuming there's supposed to be more depth to the setting of MWO than simply a Profile, Mechlab and a Launch button, but I could be wrong...

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

It's not really the player, but rather the industry of the Inner Sphere. The technical know how of the Inner Sphere has been going downhill for the last 300 years. This was mainly due to Comstar targeting scientists and destroying databases.

Ok, sure, but I don't see how that would prevent a rich merc or a military garage from retrofitting a mech from its factory defaults to use a slightly different loadout.

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Not quite, right now we have two tech bases in game. Level 1 (CN9-A, AS7-D, CPLT-C1) and the newer Level 2 (CN9-D, AS7-K, CTF-3D). Pretty much most of the level 1 mechs have become obsolete in the current setting, this also also fuels the dislike for certain stock designs. Right now we are seeing that the CN9-A is being phased out and sold to mercs while the CN9-D is being produced as a replacement model.

There is a constant evolution going on with these models. The IS powers will stop producing certain models and replace them with entirely new ones in time.

So if we were to have a Stock-only game mode, I guess it would make the most sense to limit the choices to "current" models, no?

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

In TT we have RAT's (Random Assignment Table's), every faction has their own mech selection to choose from. The Draconis Combine for instance fields large amounts of Dragons, Panthers, Jenners, Hatamoto Chi's and Maulers along with a few general designs.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "random" here. If the Draconis Combine typically fields those Mechs, how is it "random"? Or do you just mean random numbers of those specific mechs?

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

The mech availability and stock designs have been matched against each other. The Wolfhound for instance was designed to stand up to the Panther. In turn the Wolf Trap was designed to kill the Wolfhound. This will ofcourse turn out differently for the Draconis Combine when they fight the Federated Suns or a Merc unit.

However due to a limited mech availability the mech selection has been made available to every faction.

With a larger mech selection we could get more varied teams up and running.

This sounds like the "rock-paper-scissors" system I mentioned earlier. With such a system, PGI would have a huge challenge in trying to balance matches, nevermind balancing the Mechs themselves.

I can see it working one of two ways: either players choose the (stock-only) Mech they want to go into battle with, as they do now, and the matchmaking system has to ensure each match has everything required ("rock", "paper", AND "scissors"), or the matchmaking system simply enforces limits on Mechs in a match, where players load into a match and choose from a limited set of available Mechs (i.e. much like how some multiplayer FPS games limit the number of snipers, medics, et al per team).

The former system would lead to long queues if Mech favourability wasn't "even" (and previous experience in teamwork-oriented multiplayer games lends me to believe it won't be) while the latter system severly stifles player options.

That being said, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a stock-only mode; I think such a mode would be great fun (I'd play it myself, from time-to-time) as an ADDITIONAL option, especially if the stock mechs were balanced around it, but given the limitations, I can't see it being a very popular mode, at least, not compared to the current system.

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Well the Clan invasion is 3 months away, but we won't see the first IS omni till 3053.

A far more ideal setting would have been the Jih@d, here's my reasoning:
- The techbase is far more advanced and the industry indeed supports more detailed customizations.
- Omni's are more common, the Word of Blake fields 6 brand new omni designs. Think salvage here.
- Clan tech is being sold by Clan Diamond Shark to Inner Sphere powers who can afford their prices.
- House, Merc and Clan players are more likely to team up in this setting.
- Mechs like the Uziel, Thanatos and Mad Cat MK II are around and are being produced in large numbers. Many people love these designs, but they simply aren't around in 3050.
- This conflict picks up right after the Fedcom civil war (MW4), the bloody hand at the end of MW4: Mercs is gonna make sense.
- The Word of Blake is a fairly fun faction, I wouldn't play them, but i figure that lots players would have fun with their mechs.
- Potential for Clan players to participate in the Wars of Reaving.

This sounds pretty good. Who knows, maybe PGI will change the setting slightly in the future; I mean, it's not like we'd be losing anything since we have nothing in game that relates to the setting aside from a date.

Introducing the Clans and their Mechs would throw a huge monkey wrench into the game, though, given the Clan Mechs are generally superior to IS Mechs. My understanding is that the IS "won" simply through sheer numbers despite inferior technology; unfortunately, it's damn near impossible to balance a game around that.

In any case, I just don't want MWO to be in Beta for three more years...

Edited by Rorvik, 12 January 2013 - 11:06 PM.

[Rorvik]

I just wanted to respond to this quickly as I was reminded by someone else quoting this:

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

And while we are at it:
- Remove that zero crit/tonnage C3 system, people should only be able to share targeting data with C3 installed.

While lore- / canon-wise this would make sense, I'm not sure it would "make sense" from a contemporary perspective. Reading over the description of C3 in the wiki, it seems like that kind of technology has most likely been standard in military equipment for years, if not decades already (as in, already by 2013 standards). The idea that in 3050 wifi communication is just being "re-discovered" is...well, ridiculous.

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

- Make ECM like in the TT, it would remove 99% of the problems people have with it. It should only take out things like NARC, C3, Artemis and BAP. Regular missile weapons are unaffected.

Doesn't it already work like this? I don't have an ECM-capable Mech, so, again, maybe I'm missing something here...

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

- And seriously? Conquest mode? Look up stuff like the Battle for Twycross and similar books for team vs team missions. I somehow can't picture Victor Steiner-Davion and Galen Cox parking their mechs next to a probe to beat their enemies.

They definitely could use some more inspired game modes instead of lazily copying from FPS games. Conquest works best when there is a respawn, otherwise, it just devolves into a TDM. However, unless they can somehow make it work lore-wise, I'd rather not have any respawning in MWO.

Unfortunately, your link doesn't appear to give any concrete details...

Edited by Rorvik, 12 January 2013 - 11:08 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Rorvik, on 12 January 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Ok, sure, but I don't see how that would prevent a rich merc or a military garage from retrofitting a mech from its factory defaults to use a slightly different loadout.

This did happen in some cases, but it's usually only one or two guys in a entire unit.
Although later in 3050 there is sometimes a refit where a medium laser is dropped to install a C3 unit.

Although, quite a number of people inherited their mechs from their parents, and it is indeed a prized possession. They'd often be afraid to alter it.

Quote

So if we were to have a Stock-only game mode, I guess it would make the most sense to limit the choices to "current" models, no?

Correct, every era has its own flavor of mechs.

Quote

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "random" here. If the Draconis Combine typically fields those Mechs, how is it "random"? Or do you just mean random numbers of those specific mechs?

Those tables can be used to create a random if force if you want to play a quick game. There is nothing to prevent you from handpicking a force though. Here's a example for the FC (heavy mechs table):

2 TDR-5S/TDR-9S Thunderbolt [65] (3039/3085)*
3 RFL-4D/RFL-5D Rifleman [60] (3039/3085)*
4 AXM-1N Axman [65] (3050)
5 CTF-4X Cataphract/CES-3R Caesar [70] (3050)*
6 JM6-S/JM6-DD JagerMech [65] (3039/3050)*
7 MAD-3D/MAD-5D Marauder [75] (3039/3085)*
8 RFL-3N/RFL-5D Rifleman [60] (3039/3085)*
9 CRD-3D/CRD-4D Crusader [65] (3039/3085)*
10 WHM-6D/WHM-7S Warhammer [70] (3039/3085)*
11 CTF-1X/CTF-3D Cataphract [70] (3039/3050)*
12 ARC-2R/ARC-5S Archer [75] (3039/3085)*

Every faction has a table for each weight Class, additionally we have tables for Aerotechs and Vehicles.

Quote

This sounds like the "rock-paper-scissors" system I mentioned earlier. With such a system, PGI would have a huge challenge in trying to balance matches, nevermind balancing the Mechs themselves.


I can see it working one of two ways: either players choose the (stock-only) Mech they want to go into battle with, as they do now, and the matchmaking system has to ensure each match has everything required ("rock", "paper", AND "scissors"), or the matchmaking system simply enforces limits on Mechs in a match, where players load into a match and choose from a limited set of available Mechs (i.e. much like how some multiplayer FPS games limit the number of snipers, medics, et al per team).


The former system would lead to long queues if Mech favourability wasn't "even" (and previous experience in teamwork-oriented multiplayer games lends me to believe it won't be) while the latter system severly stifles player options.

That being said, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a stock-only mode; I think such a mode would be great fun (I'd play it myself, from time-to-time) as an ADDITIONAL option, especially if the stock mechs were balanced around it, but given the limitations, I can't see it being a very popular mode, at least, not compared to the current system.

I wasn't really explaining it right, all the mechs have their strenghts and weaknesses, but none of them are optimized. In advanced gameplay you even have good and bad quirks to each mech. The Wolfhound for instance has a full head ejection system.

But aside from that, in TT we have Battle Values. These values are calculated from the tonnage, firepower and equipment the mech mounts. This system can be rather crude, but it works most of the time, here are some examples:

Awesome AWS-8Q: 1,605
Awesome AWS-9M 1,812
Enforcer ENF-4R: 1,032
Mad Cat/Timber Wolf Prime: 2,737

The difference in power between the Clan mech and the IS mechs should be quite evident here. The Timber Wolf is almost at triple the rating of the Enforcer. Yet teaming the Enforcer up with the AWS-9M should give you a good a crack at pulling of a victory.

You can even have uneven teams this way, a horde of lights can be fielded against a couple of assaults. Players will quickly catch on to this and will probably start balancing their teams accordingly. They might even pick a number of level 1 designs to keep the BV rating down.

Quote

This sounds pretty good. Who knows, maybe PGI will change the setting slightly in the future; I mean, it's not like we'd be losing anything since we have nothing in game that relates to the setting aside from a date.

I hope so, quite a ton of oldschool TT'ers are waiting for this.

Quote

Introducing the Clans and their Mechs would throw a huge monkey wrench into the game, though, given the Clan Mechs are generally superior to IS Mechs. My understanding is that the IS "won" simply through sheer numbers despite inferior technology; unfortunately, it's damn near impossible to balance a game around that.

There was more to it, the Clans are split in two camps, the Wardens and the Crusaders. The Wardens didn't want to invade, so they essentially helped Comstar to set up a situation where the Invasion could be halted in a trial for a world. Comstar had Star League era mechs (more advanced then what the houses had) so they had a actual chance at standing up to Clan mechs.

The Inner Sphere wouldn't really be to compete untill the Great Refusal in 3060. They could get the Clans to halt the Invasion indefinately. The Wardens did help out again by not challenging the Inner Sphere forces and by letting the Crusaders fend for themselves.

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In any case, I just don't want MWO to be in Beta for three more years...

I'm right with you on that one

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While lore- / canon-wise this would make sense, I'm not sure it would "make sense" from a contemporary perspective. Reading over the description of C3 in the wiki, it seems like that kind of technology has most likely been standard in military equipment for years, if not decades already (as in, already by 2013 standards). The idea that in 3050 wifi communication is just being "re-discovered" is...well, ridiculous.

Battletech is the "future of the 80's", it's by no means realistic.

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Doesn't it already work like this? I don't have an ECM-capable Mech, so, again, maybe I'm missing something here...

Nope, ECM only disrupts, C3, BAP, Artemis and NARC. LRM's and SSRM's behave normally. Additionally you can still spot them on your radar. Now the Radar can be fooled if you switch to "Ghost Targets", but you'll lose the disruption effect.

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They definitely could use some more inspired game modes instead of lazily copying from FPS games. Conquest works best when there is a respawn, otherwise, it just devolves into a TDM. However, unless they can somehow make it work lore-wise, I'd rather not have any respawning in MWO.

Unfortunately, your link doesn't appear to give any concrete details...

I can't post a entire book, but I can give you previews:
http://bg.battletech...olf_Preview.pdf
http://bg.battletech...052_Preview.pdf
http://bg.battletech...War_Preview.pdf
http://bg.battletech...gue_Preview.pdf
http://bg.battletech...aos_Preview.pdf

[TheForce]

Just give us the ability to have PRIVATE games.

Then all the real MechWarriors can get together and play with stock mechs, and we'll never have to hear from MinmaxWarrior @$$h0les like Vassago Rain again.

[KingCobra]

WHY no stock only mode? because PGI is afraid everyone would like it and not buy there Pay2Win Mechs simple as that. I would buy this pay2win mech though.

[Tarl Cabot]

As for Stock mode, ask those who were part of MPBT EGA (91-96ish), MPBT Solaris (95ish-2001) and MPBT 3025 (2001). Of those Solaris likely saw the most players who filtered through it by several thousands, as it went from general internet/beta to Aol/Prodigy+Earthlink to Gamestorm. Each was an incarnation of the previous game and community.

Each mech had its place and there were only a few, really terrible but funny configurations, such as the Charger packed with small lasers . Lights used ranged from Spiders, Jenners, Commandos and Locusts, etc. Mediums used were Hunchbacks, Trebuchets, Blackjacks, Centurions, Cicada, Assassin, Clint, Griffin, Shadowhawk, Hermes, Whitworth, Vindicator, etc. Heavies had Marauders, Catapults, Dragons, Grasshoppers, Rifleman, Warhammar, Crusadar, Thunderbolt, etc. Assaults had Atlases, Banshees, Chargers, Awesomes, Victor, Zeus, Battlemaster, Stalker, Cyclops.

Again, MPBT Solaris was supposed to have been on the combat engine (like the current MWO) with an actual Community Warfare w/Innersphere to follow. That did not happen but we made do. We used the House areas for anywhere from 1-on-1 to 4-on-4 or FFA. On the weekends we created and drove the SSW (Solaris Succession Wars) using the areas and rooms as planets and capitals. The combat field was primarily flat terrain with a "mountain" or 2 and/or a small hill/rise.

Except for the FFA, units dropped with specific lance specifications, Light, Med, Heavy, Assault, Lance (L-M-H-A). And very rarely did a lance drop in the same mech variant, as there was not an OP mech. Could a light pilot take out an assault pilot? If of equal skills it was would be a very tough win for the light pilot (no lag shield), if the assault pilot allowed the light to get close enough and had not damaged the light's legs or crippled it some other way.

Each mech had its strengths and weaknesses but more important was how it was piloted. A blackjack (w/AC2) pilot who did not fade for awhile hampered himself severely. Same with a Dragon 1C pilot (AC2) verses a Marauder or Cat pilot. The AC2 pilots had a temporary small advantage with limited ammo. After that it meant getting closer with 1 LRM 10 vs PPCS, Large Lasers, LRM 10, 15 and 20s, and for close work 2 med lasers, one forward facing, one rear facing. It made for some interesting tactics.

But again, no mech was OP. Assault drops always had a mixture of mechs but primarily Banshee S, Atlas, Stalker, Cyclops, Awesomes, but rarely a Battlemaster. And not every mech had its own graphic. For many of the mechs used the same graphics, with a few that did not share their graphics such as Hunchback and Locust.

To put MPBT Solaris into context, the first major reduction in pilots occurred with Everquest Everquest became the word that was not to be typed/named. Using that word was worse that saying a cuss word (chuckles).

Stock mechs do work and have do worked well. Most stock mechs (except all lights but one locust) had a little bit of everything, from long to medium to short range capabilities. But between Microsoft ********** and EA spread, infected legs MPBT/MW was doomed to fail.

Edit hai, long post but with paragraph breaks!!!

Just to add, focus fire was the rule of the day. Very few used VOIP, but most combat commands and discussions were text chat. Formations were utilized often, Echelon Left, 20*, 50 kph. On contact BJ fades.

Basically fights were ranged fights, with brawls occurring only after ammo was depleted or long range weapons were destroyed.

hai, finished

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 January 2013 - 09:24 AM.