130 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

Ivanzypher, on 15 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

As for your second paragraph, how else can they balance the hightech gear? ECM is powerful. Endosteel is flat out superior to regular. There is currently no reason to ever not use these things. The only way to balance flat upgrades is with an economy.

Because in the end you are talking about individual consequences, and MW is a TEAM game. Even if a PUG, you should always put the team first. If you are scared of a repair bill, you won't risk for the team. If you lose a drop, but you save a repair bill, how is that a good thing.

consequences are good. RnR is not how they should be implemented. Consequences should be part of CW. And really thats what we ALL want. When you lose a PLANET because you failed in a drop as a team. Regardless of whether you died in your light mech stalling an enemy cap so your team could cap, your TEAM won, and thus you won a planetary assault (or whatever). Maybe repairs are part of CW, maybe not. If they are, it should be secondary.

We all want CW. We all want the drops to 'matter'. But pretending RnR makes the drops matter is just silly. And again, the game should be fun even without a metagame experience. If it isn't, PGI needs to fix that.

[DaZur]

XWorldEaterX, on 15 January 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I don't understand. From what I have heard in similar threads about this not much changed in regard to people playing like idiots. Also this wouldn't stop cheese builds.

Cant' cure stupid... Stupid players will play stupid. I'm talking about players that know better but because there is no deterrent caution is thrown to the wind and poor game-play is the result.

Cheese builds is part of the game... I'm talking about the proliferation of them. No R&R is quickly leading to the ol' arms race of MW4 fame where there is no incentive to pilot anything but
the premium assaults.

Aym, on 15 January 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

You sir played a different game than I did during RnR. Players who were abusing the system, suicide farming, not repairing, or simply didn't know how to play with the team still rushed in and died. Players who are suicide farming, or simply don't know how to play STILL do this. While the rest of us trying to play as a team play as we have for the last 7 months, even when we made millions of c-bills per evening and had 100's of millions at every reset with nothing to spend them on.

R&R only hampers AFKs and farmers... They are still going to do it until a mechanism is in place to penalize them and not incentify. R&R to me encourages those who do play to play like it means something... Encourages self-preservation, application of tactics, ammo conservation and teamwork.

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

This one got that covered.

For days and days.

The only people I know that like it are Eve players and MW franchise fans. Hell a couple guys I played the tabletop game with told me it was "watered down trash".

Well, see, and this is just from me, mind.

Back when we had 'the economy,' I couldn't talk about this game with my friends, because they'd laugh, or bring up the korean grind sim - which was fair enough. It wasn't any fun at all for new players.

Then, the moment we were told it was getting removed, I got four new people interested in trying the game out.

So, you see, for every worthless gold that gets mad, we have a ton of new names appearing in each match, and I'd rather have that, then listen to you moan about ECM, and how it's not mil-sim enough for you to pretend you're a house soldier saving the princess in the oilrig ALPHA DELTA SIGMA ZETA!

And I get a real kick out of making you people mad with my posts, so you're never getting rid of me. What's funny is that me, a total troll, has a far more positive effect on the game than the golden minority. I don't think anyone likes you golds, at all, but me, I get actually greeted in games.

I guess if you want to play spreadsheetwarriors online, you can always go back to eve.

[Clay Pigeon]

Rearm fees must NOT be brought back.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Well, see, and this is just from me, mind.

Back when we had 'the economy,' I couldn't talk about this game with my friends, because they'd laugh, or bring up the korean grind sim - which was fair enough. It wasn't any fun at all for new players.

Then, the moment we were told it was getting removed, I got four new people interested in trying the game out.

So, you see, for every worthless gold that gets mad, we have a ton of new names appearing in each match, and I'd rather have that, then listen to you moan about ECM, and how it's not mil-sim enough for you to pretend you're a house soldier saving the princess in the oilrig ALPHA DELTA SIGMA ZETA!

And I get a real kick out of making you people mad with my posts, so you're never getting rid of me. What's funny is that me, a total troll, has a far more positive effect on the game than the golden minority. I don't think anyone likes you golds, at all, but me, I get actually greeted in games.

I guess if you want to play spreadsheetwarriors online, you can always go back to eve.

What makes you think I'm the least bit mad?

Keep typing your books though, its vaguely amusing while I'm waiting on a phone call.

[Joseph Mallan]

I disagree Clay they should return... eventually, with Community Warfare maybe. They are part of on running campaigns, and I like em... even when I don't like paying them!

[Sprouticus]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

This one got that covered. For days and days. The only people I know that like it are Eve players and MW franchise fans. Hell a couple guys I played the tabletop game with told me it was "watered down trash".

If we are bringing up anecdotal evidence, I just had a friend (not an Eve player, not a MW fanboi) who texted me last night begging me to get online (was exhausted 15 hour day plus working out). He said he was getting 'addicted'. Another friend likes the game a lot (less than the 1st but still likes it a lot.

Edited by Sprouticus, 15 January 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

What makes you think I'm the least bit mad?

Keep typing your books though, its vaguely amusing while I'm waiting on a phone call.

That you're replying to obvious canned responses that I make when I haven't even read what you're telling me.
I can go on here, start a thread, or just post in an existing one, and people like you will literally vomit gold all over me. Comedy and gold.

[Yokaiko]

Sprouticus, on 15 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

If we are bringing up anecdotal evidence, I just had a friend (not an Eve player, not a MW fanboi) who texted me last night begging me to get one (was exhausted 15 hour day plus working out). He said he was getting 'addicted'. Another friend likes the game a lot (less than the 1st but still likes it a lot.

That would be the only people I know.

I'm a computer engineer, suffice it to say I know a LARGE body of nerds. None were the least bit interested.

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

That you're replying to obvious canned responses that I make when I haven't even read what you're telling me.
I can go on here, start a thread, or just post in an existing one, and people like you will literally vomit gold all over me. Comedy and gold.

...what are you babbling about?

[Mawai]

DaZur, on 15 January 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

+1000 to the OP.

To parallel your premise (which I fully support) I wish to add that aside from the side-effect of proliferation of cheese builds, the absence of R&R has created no repercussion scenarios...

Players rush into battle with no forethought to the consequences because there is no over-riding incentive to:
a.) Not get killed.
b.) Not get their Mech obliterated.
c.) Not **** through their full ammo load.
d.)Not incur an outlandish repair bill.

Essentially the omission of R&R has removed all fear of repercussion... Players play full-tilt without a care on the world. This then leads to mindless matches of players simply throwing their cheesiest builds at each other with no thought of recourse and any premise of battlefield tactics and or true teamwork and collaboration is thrown out the window.

Bring back R&R and you will see players playing "smarter" and matches will be more cerebral and far less "pew-pew".

I mostly disagree. R&R as described in this thread will mostly be a reason for folks who don't do as well to not play. The "elite" players on teams who win a lot will have deep pockets and will be able to afford to drive whatever they like. More casual players, likely the bulk of folks in MWO, will not. If folks are forced to play mediocre mechs while being stomped by folks who win all the time and can fit the best equipment, I think they will rightly consider the game both unbalanced and not fun and will probably quit.

Balancing the game based on in-game performance rewards is just a bad idea because it creates a feedback loop that will significantly discourage the bulk of players. The balance of equipment in the game needs to be balanced based on the in-game effects. Each match is BattleTech ... the meta game elements make it MechWarrior.

Finally, the lack of R&R does not make folks play poorly. The lack of motivation to win or simply the lack of experience does this all on its own. Many people need to learn that you will earn more from a match by staying alive and contributing for a longer time than by charging the enemy and possibly dying quickly ... but that takes practice and experience which comes with time ... and to get folks to play for that length of time the game has to be FUN to play. Artificial "economic" constraints like the ones described by the OP will significantly reduce the "fun" element for many of the folks (perhaps the bulk of MWO players) who do not earn significant cbills every match. It is the casual players, in my opinion, who are more likely to buy premium time or a hero mech to maximize the time they do play the game ... thus it is these players that PGI can not afford to alienate ... and the bulk of these folks likely do not post on these forums and none of them are founders

Edited by Mawai, 15 January 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

That would be the only people I know.

I'm a computer engineer, suffice it to say I know a LARGE body of nerds. None were the least bit interested.

My geek card is up to date as well. Trust me. My point was simply that anecdotal evidence is pointless. Mine, yours, Vassago's.

[KinLuu]

There should be 100% RnR costs in CW. It should be really expensive to run CW - especially if you are bad.

There should be 0% RnR costs in public Qs. It should be free to run for fun. Fun, you know, the most important part of a F2P game?

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

That would be the only people I know.

I'm a computer engineer, suffice it to say I know a LARGE body of nerds. None were the least bit interested.



...what are you babbling about?

[Yokaiko]

Sprouticus, on 15 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

My geek card is up to date as well. Trust me. My point was simply that anecdotal evidence is pointless. Mine, yours, Vassago's.

True enough.

[XWorldEaterX]

I am surprised that with all the Elite(not sure if thats the correct word) players on these forums that most of you wouldnt just rather have R&R for when you survive and only get scrap when you are destroyed forcing you to buy your mech again. Thats how it would work in the real battletech universe right?(being serious, never played TT)

That sounds like it would be a decent idea for community warfare since more is suppose to be at stake. But how many would be willing to go out on to the battlefield if death meant grinding out all those cbill again.



Also to the person who replied to me about people only bringing assault. I have been playing a lot and this is just not true. The only thing I see that is like this is the lights, I do see non ecm versions sometimes but they don't last long and I see way more ecm ravens and com then other lights.

Mediums I see cicadas, cent and hunchbacks often. Two of my friends play hunchback and one of them drive nothing else.

Heavies. I see all three again. less dragon and cataphracts then catapults but I think this is because the hero mech version are better I guess and not as many own them.

Assault I see a lot of these as well. You would be surprised at how often I see awesomes and non ddc atlas's in pugs games.

Heavies seem to be the most popular right now, probably due to so many bringing ultra ac/5 cataphracts and srm ac/20 cats.(but come on it is really fun using ac/20's, I just built one and have been having a blast legging and trying to headshot people.) Plus there is nothing more satisfying then one shotting a little light who thinks he is unstoppable.

[Joseph Mallan]

nice Pick of a Lyran Atlas Vass!

[Faldrin]

While I agree with the OP some thing needs to be done I don't believe his system would be good for the game. Due to fact like lucky head shots at the start of the game and other such deaths, Players would hide behind their team rather than move forward letting others take the damage that they could help spread out. To many things can go wrong with this system sorry OP but this idea is bad.

While I believe Its a bad idea does not mean to OP is not right with the problems.

Now rather than changing the Win/Lose damage done system with what they have, they could look at the weapon systems that are boated or cheese builds if you will. So say a item gets destroyed in game it has a chance of being 100% cost to replace it, could also add a repair cost if more than x amount of a weapon is used to increase to cost to replace or repair that weapon. But this system would be best to only come into effect after X rated on the Elo system so it don't hurt new player.
So it really will only effect players that have x amount of skill. And new players are left alone to get the hang of the game.

Hell you could even add the full R&R when player reach x rated on the Elo system. But you should not change the system we have in place now for new players in my eyes but OP your system would hurt them more as a player is still new after 40+ games compared to some of the players in this game.

[Yokaiko]

I actually drive dragons all the time.....and my Flame hits as hard as that AC20 pult.....it just runs a LOT faster.

I do see a number of matches where there are no lights, and it always seem to be death-quest mode.

[Sprouticus]

Let me put this another way for folks who think RnR is more BT-ish. I get what your saying. It is part of the flavor of the universe. Losing a mech should be a big deal.

But in BT RnR is TEAM based. You had a lance/company/star/binanry of mechs and a set of goals. You have multiple engagements against someone else with other goals who also has a similar number of mechs.

In MW you dont have the luxary of multiple mechs. You drop in 1 mech. In BT you are the entire team. In MW:O you are a single mech.

So while RnR might make some players play more 'BT-ish' and have a lot more care for their mech, all that means is you are displacing risk on others. In BT if you are stupid in a scenario, you pay the price. In MWO, 7 other players pay that price. If you are over cautious with your remaining assault in BT, it may cost you. If you do it on MWO, it costs everyone.

Edited by Sprouticus, 15 January 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Exactly Sport if you lose in the MMO your team may lose. Teamwork is as much watching your brother as it is watching yourself. So what affects you should affect me. All part of being a group.