45 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Janus Wealth, on 12 January 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Maybe thats true. Maybe everyone i meet is bad and let me do my 400-1000 dmg per round because they cant do any better.

Or maybe - just maybe - you are bad with TAG and/or LRM´s.
I´m playing a 4xLRM15/4ML Stalker in 8Man/4Man/Lone Wolf games. Its hard to hold a lock, but its neither impossible, nor completely broken. LRM´s are very unforgiving at this moment. Plain and Simple.

Lol. That hit a nerve! I guess I can see how that could have seemed offensive. It wasn't deliberate. Fact is I tried TAG a bit, felt it required too much work for the benefits and haven't used it since. So, I can only speak from my point of view of dodging TAG/missiles in my RVN-3L or sniping that LRM boat with dual AC10. It's far easier, plus I get to keep my initial damage output, without trading a laser for TAG. But if it works for you, good for you. You're working harder than you have to.

[Nasty McBadman]

The only way I can describe the logic would be to go and tag the nearest tree or building in the next match, does the tree or the building become a lockable target? No, of course not, it is not recognizable by a mech's system as "something that should be shot". ECM seems to be able to confuse mech systems within "the bubble". Outside of the ECM disrupt bubble, the tagging mech can get a positive indicator with the tag laser and the mech's own internal system to confirm target position and "shootability".

[MajorBorris]

Why is it so popular these days to cry about weapon systems on a forum instead of improving ones skills on the battlefield.

This game is allready short on game play as it is.

Before ECM every mech in the game had a EZ target button, no line of site needed.

I spose its easier to complain then to actualy figure out how to beat another teams tactics, thats fun? For some that must be a big yes....

[Thysbe]

Well the main point bothering me is the Catapult A1 beeing useless.

K2 (4*LL) that's relaxing
C4 (2*LRM20+Artemis+Tag, 2*SRM) that's work
A1 that wasted time (LRM no way, SRM suicide (I dont like that))

Edited by Thysbe, 12 January 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[MajorBorris]

Brawler1986, on 12 January 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

True. The main reason why i posted this, is because it would balance the ECM abit more. It sucks when a Raven (without ECM) with a TAG comes close but cant pinpoint targets for the LRM boats because the ECM of the enemy disturbs somehow the beam of the TAG.

Great another pilot with limited experience wants to balance the game for us.

Thats how games devolve to the lowest common denominator.

Before trying to change public opinion, try becoming an ace first.

Edited by MajorBorris, 12 January 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[StUffz]

MajorBorris, on 12 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Great another pilot with limited experience wants to balance the game for us.

Thats how games devolve to the lowest common denominator.

Before trying to change public opinion, try becoming an ace first.

Temper temper now. I sometimes understand why people have a concern about something in this game. However I can only emphasize these person to search for fixed groups and feel the difference. Maybe they are not a lone wolf aces but perfect team players.

We should not scare off those folks but maybe open up some new ideas. And the other idea what comes in my mind maybe is if someone has time to write a guide how TAG works.

[MajorBorris]

StUffz, on 12 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Temper temper now. I sometimes understand why people have a concern about something in this game. However I can only emphasize these person to search for fixed groups and feel the difference. Maybe they are not a lone wolf aces but perfect team players.

We should not scare off those folks but maybe open up some new ideas. And the other idea what comes in my mind maybe is if someone has time to write a guide how TAG works.

Your are correct as well but there is a guide from the devs.


http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

It not only explains how it works but how to defeat it.

Sadly, many who complain dont even bother read it much less figure ways to mitigate/defeat it.

Edited by MajorBorris, 12 January 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[LynxFury]

Povier, on 12 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

"It's a laser, not a radio."

Its a fine electronic component which could be scrambled, like the displays in HUD.

There's nothing to scramble. It's direct application of electricity to a crystal or other substance to directly produce the light. The only thing that can scramble light, is light--which was my comment about a light show. In the real world they are less than 10 pounds and can operate off a small battery. No offense but you don't seem to understand what a laser is.

Boris, just because someone has a low post count doesn't' mean they aren't experienced. And honestly ECM is so profoundly crippling to much of the play, it likely has already chased away experience and inexperienced alike. Ultimately the New player experience is more important than the play for old players--because the game's very survival depends on continuous stream of new players.

So here we go:
-If you're a BT fanantic, have with figurings still cluttering your home and your garage once a massive map and megamek the first and only computer game you ever played and came to MWO...you'd be pissed because EW is nothing like Battletech.

-If you're a just retired US Navy electronic warfare expert and you try MWO you'd be pissed because some of it's foundamental concepts are so absolutely broken as compared to the real thing.

-If you're a 14 year old kid, or just Jill six pack who nothing about EW or BT, you'd be pissed because simple things like a tag fired at a mech as close range when you can clearly see both the beam, impact and mech, dont' work sometimes makes not an iota of "common" sense.

In all three cases that reaction might just get them to look elsewhere for their entertainment.

That link you posted didn't address half the issues of ECM..not even close. It's a superficial hand wave.

Edited by LynxFury, 12 January 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[MajorBorris]

LynxFury, on 12 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

There's nothing to scramble. It's direct application of electricity to a crystal or other substance to directly produce the light. The only thing that can scramble light, is light--which was my comment about a light show. In the real world they are less than 10 pounds and can operate off a small battery. No offense but you don't seem to understand what a laser is.

Boris, just because someone has a low post count doesn't' mean they aren't experienced. And honestly ECM is so profoundly crippling to much of the play, it likely has already chased away experience and inexperienced alike. Ultimately the New player experience is more important than the play for old players--because the game's very survival depends on continuous stream of new players.

That link you posted didn't address half the issues of ECM..not even close. It's a superficial hand wave.

Thats funny, high post counts scare me more.

This game is wildly popular with limited content so I am not to worried if a bunch of 12 year olds cant team up to defeat someones rock with there scissors.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

This is the primary reason why ecm is OP. Fix TAG, fix net code and restore KD and we're good to go.

Oh, forgot to mention NARC. That needs a buff desperately. Right now it't as useful as **** on a breastplate.

Edited by Brown Hornet, 12 January 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Povier]

LynxFury, on 12 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

There's nothing to scramble. It's direct application of electricity to a crystal or other substance to directly produce the light. The only thing that can scramble light, is light--which was my comment about a light show. In the real world they are less than 10 pounds and can operate off a small battery. No offense but you don't seem to understand what a laser is.
...

interesting. ur right i dont have any real idea of it. i didnt thought it could be that simple. i dont take this as offense.
so i google for "laser emitter circuit" and found electronic parts for the control of the voltage. Considering the range of 750 meter the needed power and according parts could be "big" enough to be affected, dont they. On the other hand my weapon laser dont. Whatever.

Edited by Povier, 12 January 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[StUffz]

LynxFury, on 12 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

-If you're a just retired US Navy electronic warfare expert and you try MWO you'd be pissed because some of it's foundamental concepts are so absolutely broken as compared to the real thing.

Most soldier would laugh at the current systen and continue to play with their units relying on commands and teamplay. Soldiers are proud of their skill and mostly try not to rely on one equipment but to master their teamplay. ECM only makes them godmode against pugs.

[Mordin Ashe]

MajorBorris, on 12 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Why is it so popular these days to cry about weapon systems on a forum instead of improving ones skills on the battlefield.

This game is allready short on game play as it is.

Before ECM every mech in the game had a EZ target button, no line of site needed.

I spose its easier to complain then to actualy figure out how to beat another teams tactics, thats fun? For some that must be a big yes....

For each and every one of you "L2P and shut up" folks my Raven's nose gets a bit longer. Please, stop saying things like that, soon my Raven will overbalance and fall over at the beginning ov every match. Save my Raven and stop saying things like that!

Also, there is no counter to ECM. That is the problem. You can't beat it unless you have ECM as well, which in PUGs you don't. Thats the problem.

[Heketon]

MajorBorris, on 12 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Your are correct as well but there is a guide from the devs.

http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

It not only explains how it works but how to defeat it.

I think you should re-read those posts. Sure, in the second post David Bradley says,

David Bradley said:

The rock to its scissors is the TAG laser. If you use it to hit anyone cloaked by an ECM, you and your team will be able to target them.

but in the first he also says,

David Bradley said:

Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.

There's some interpretation needed here. Can the laser enable people to hit the cloaked target without the addition of any bonuses or is it completely useless because while the laser is firing, nobody can use it to guide their missiles?

I for one would like some clarification on this point.

[ICEFANG13]

When you use TAG on the target, it lets you lock on, and then, after a few seconds, you can actually lock on, and then after a second or so, you can get target info (during that time and a few seconds), you can lock on with missiles.

[Thysbe]

In adittion to the post above:

You can even guide the missile inside the ECM bubble, when you are outside. (Will follow the target the last 180 m)
But none of that works when you are inside of any ECM bubble (not necessary the bubble you are tagging).

Edited by Thysbe, 13 January 2013 - 01:34 AM.

[Jukebox1986]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 January 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Lol. That hit a nerve! I guess I can see how that could have seemed offensive. It wasn't deliberate. Fact is I tried TAG a bit, felt it required too much work for the benefits and haven't used it since. So, I can only speak from my point of view of dodging TAG/missiles in my RVN-3L or sniping that LRM boat with dual AC10. It's far easier, plus I get to keep my initial damage output, without trading a laser for TAG. But if it works for you, good for you. You're working harder than you have to.

I´m sorry if my answer was a bit rude, but yes, that hit a nerve. Since ECM started his career, i played LRM´s. At first to see what happened, and after a few games because people started to whine and i wanted to see what up with that.

If you want to try it again, its not that hard:

Rule 1: Line of sight. - never use your LRM´s without line of sight. (exept youre in a team, and you trust your scout)

Rule 2: Teamwork. - ATM you need an ECM-Mech to counter enemy ECM-mech near you. Either stay away from enemy ECM (thats hard, as you cant outrun an 3L) or stay with an DDC (for example).

Rule 3: Range: - LRM´s work at best at 250-500m Range. They´re flying to slow to let em cross a distance over 800 and harm anyone who´s not deaf and blind. You can shoot em at that range to distract or pin enemy mechs, but you wont do damage.

Thats it. I recommend staying 200+ Meters behind the front line, near a mech who can counter ecm.


But thats my playstyle, not everyone can or will adapt to it. ECM is still OP.

Edited by Janus Wealth, 13 January 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[Thysbe]

That way works fine for my Cat-C4. You can adjust the distance according to the map an position of the foe. (On Caustic Valley an 500m+ hit is usually possible).

But again my Cat-A1 still seems useless.

[Jesus Box]

Foolish mortals. You can't Tag Jesus Box at <180m! Hahaha.

[Koniving]

Look. Those of you who don't know the lore are comparing TAG to a SOFLAM. They are similar visually, but not identical. Said beams of light do not cast laser signals into the air. It's a position and distance indicator or, if it helps, a very specific "Scanner" to supplement the 'Mech's more passive scanning equipment. The TAG then broadcasts the targeting data via the same way that all the 'Mechs share targeting data.

ECM happens to disrupt communications such as the computer sensor sharing network.

This is, by lore, working as intended. Also remember that the concept of TAG came sometime before modern SOFLAMs, and as such were not based on SOFLAMs, and also do not work like SOFLAMs (otherwise anyone with their own laser pointer can tell your missiles to go somewhere else or even redirect them at yourself).

ECM, however, may be working as PGI intended, but it is not working as the lore intended. We wouldn't need a range boost on tag if ECM wasn't the equivalent of a Klingon cloaking device. We're intended to lose benefits from advanced weaponry, and a huge decrease in LRM and Streak accuracy (anywhere in the 75 to 100% miss ratio) -- not a complete stop to being able to use them outside of the bubble without shining the target with tag.

Let me waste my missiles! Stealth armor is what is supposed to make enemies invisible to scanners. Not ECM. Distorted readings are still readings.