237 replies to this topic

[M4rtyr]

SixStringSamurai, on 14 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Did you even read what I wrote or did you just pull out what you wanted and went with it?

What did he say that wasn't valid?

Armor being doubled has nothing to do if one weapon is balanced with another weapon. And its been a while but I don't remember any crit multipliers, just you checked for a crit per hit on internals. Don't know if thats how MWO does it though. There was mention of a different crit system but no details given.

[Broceratops]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 January 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

I am not convinced that you don't overestimate the precision you get from weapons with ballistic trajectory and energy weapons with a beam duration. And it doesn't explain why LB10-X ACs didn't also get a damage imrpovement.

LBX is evidence they're doing it right. LBX didn't get a damage improvement and they are totally useless except for making a cool sound. Even if they got a 20% damage buff like SRMs did and were in effect LBX-12, they'd *still* be total ***. And this is *with* tighter spread than SRMs.

Edited by Broceratops, 14 January 2013 - 06:52 AM.

[Orgasmo]

SRM is fine as it is. You have to be within 150m for it to be truly effective. Outside of that, about half will hit due to spread.

[M4rtyr]

Broceratops, on 14 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

LBX is evidence they're doing it right. LBX didn't get a damage improvement and they are totally useless except for making a cool sound. Even if they got a 20% damage buff like SRMs did and were in effect LBX-12, they'd *still* be total ***. And this is *with* tighter spread than SRMs.

Well that matches TT though, because LBX cluster rounds were always bad unless you had a couple locations cleared of armor, then you go for the crit. However in MWO we can't use slug rounds so THAT is what makes the LBX useless.

So saying the LBX didn't get that buff and proves the buff was needed is anything but accurate.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"Simple, because its the only weapon that allows you to hit targets -THAT AREN'T EVEN IN LOS-. If you can't see how much of a benefit that is and so balancing it by making them comparatively lower damage (8-12 damage isn't exactly terrible for LRM10-15s) then you don't know how to balance a game anyway."

Now you just talking nonsense. You cannot hit a target with LRM's unless you have someone else provide that LOS you seem not to need. That is simply crazy talk. No one gets to shoot LRM's at a target without LoS, either directly or provided. What are on about about?

As to my ability to balance a game, no doubt but I do at least understand how the mechanic work before making silly statements like that one of yours.

[M4rtyr]

Orgasmo, on 14 January 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

SRM is fine as it is. You have to be within 150m for it to be truly effective. Outside of that, about half will hit due to spread.

Yes it is and thats exactly what I've said. I just want the damage put back to its base.

[Noth]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but this doesn't pass... They got buffed because they sucked bones? Really...

No, I could see most players saying LRMs are underpowered because they can't kill things with 40+ missiles. Thats the point behind LRM's though, they are a support weapon, not meant to do the majority of damage but to soften targets up. Why are they meant to do crap damage like that? Simple, because its the only weapon that allows you to hit targets -THAT AREN'T EVEN IN LOS-. If you can't see how much of a benefit that is and so balancing it by making them comparitively lower damage (8-12 damage isn't exactly terrible for LRM10-15s) then you don't know how to balance a game anyway.

As for the SRMs.... LMAO, SRMs can never have possibly sucked. Even with the TT spread they've always been a powerful short range weapon. And as I've stated, MWO allows for more missiles to hit even without artemis. But hey, lets look at the specifics. with base TT damage an SRMCat will still do 72 damage to 1 location, maybe 2 when used in the most dangerous fashion. Guess what.. 72 damage in one LOW HEAT alpha with the standard cycle time is anything but a "SUCKED BONES" weapon. So don't give me that BS, because its exactly what it is BS. Maybe there were other bugs at the time that were preventing SRM full damage, but as things sit now there is no reason not to have them use base TT damage.

Actually yes, LRMs at 1.5 damage sucked. They were rarely ever used, and when used, even mediums walked through them. They weren't punishing enough to warrant how defenseless they were when boated (which was and still is the only way to make LRMs effective at killing).

SRMs were considered good at 2.5 and a tighter spread than now. They were then nerfed to the current spread and then many considered them useless as so many other weapons out classed them at effective killing from farther range. Currently those other weapons have become better while SRMs stayed the same, yet some how it is the SRMs that are too powerful?

The only time SRMs are really deadly are at 100 and under meters. Higher than that and you'll have the missiles hitting the ground and flying harmlessy wide or above the target. With artemis that range can extend out to 150 meters but it is still rare that you will get a good grouping to do serious damage. I seriously lough at people who waste their SRMs at 100+ meters because the damage is so spread while I am focusing damage on a specific spot leading to a quicker kill.

You don't want to die quick to SRMs stay out of extreme close range. Since ECM has came in to the game I have seen some serious bad habits form in players from running out in the open (no fear of LRMs) and rushing in close (since SSRMs are useless in ECM). The reason you see so many SRMs is because ECM has made it so easy to get close and LRMs much harder to use. Thus you have people taking a short range weapon. It is the shortest ranged weapon in the game for doing effective damage.

SRMs have never been bugged from doing full damage, there is actually currently one bug where SRMs seem to vanish if shot too close to a target. SO if anything they are more bugged now than they were in closed beta.

Essentially you are saying all previous testing is wrong and that you are right and you ignore any evidence otherwise (all alpha and closed beta).

Edited by Noth, 14 January 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[M4rtyr]

MaddMaxx, on 14 January 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Now you just talking nonsense. You cannot hit a target with LRM's unless you have someone else provide that LOS you seem not to need. That is simply crazy talk. No one gets to shoot LRM's at a target without LoS, either directly or provided. What are on about about?

As to my ability to balance a game, no doubt but I do at least understand how the mechanic work before making silly statements like that one of yours.

You have no idea.. 2 mechs, or more, can fire on an enemy when only one mech is exposed. And when done right that spotting mech is the hardest to hit light mech.

I'm not saying you didn't need any LOS, but it is still the only weapon you can use and not get shot back at. Get real.

[Havyek]

SRMs at TT values would be worthless, LRMs at TT values would be less than worthless. Hell LRMs at 1.5 damage were worthless.

If you allow a Stalker to facehug you in order to have all of its SRMs strike a single location, you deserve whatever pain comes your way.

The SRM6 Cats are a bit of a different beast, but if they're close enough to facehug you, then they're close enough that about the only thing you CAN shoot is their cockpit.

[SixstringSamurai]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 January 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

I am not convinced that you don't overestimate the precision you get from weapons with ballistic trajectory and energy weapons with a beam duration. And it doesn't explain why LB10-X ACs didn't also get a damage imrpovement.

It doesn't explain why trying to run an AC/20 with the same sustainable rate of fire as 4 Medium lasers would require that much more weight than those 4 MLs and the appropriate number of sinks? The difference makes sense in the table top due to random hit locations, but in MW:O, it doesn't.

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

What did he say that wasn't valid?

Armor being doubled has nothing to do if one weapon is balanced with another weapon. And its been a while but I don't remember any crit multipliers, just you checked for a crit per hit on internals. Don't know if thats how MWO does it though. There was mention of a different crit system but no details given.

You do realize we are arguing about a mere .5 difference in damage versus doubled armor values. The reason some of the weapons have increased values and others do not is so that you can retain the intended function of the weapon in a non TT setting. While it TT you could crit per missile or laser and annihilate a mech on a decent roll, that roll was the factor. In MWO everything is real time so you have to strike a balance somewhere other wise if you doubled the weapon damage values you would throw this game way out wack. Mechs like centurions and Dragons would be little more then target practice since even with increased armor values aiming the weapons your self your able to hit a moving target and it's pretty easy to strip mechs of arms and weapons. Light mechs have their "lag shield" so they fair better then they should. There are no movement turns or attack turns, or facing rolls. To account for these changes in the mechanic this is why missiles in general have slight buffs.

[M4rtyr]

Noth, on 14 January 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Blurb...

LRM's arn't supposed to do alot of damage... but for some stupid reason everyone here seem to think every weapon should be a main killer. No, they aren't. I will say however LRM's have a problem that most of the maps are far to tight (short range) that you can only use them in IDF or the enemy is already within you're minimum. But thats still not reason to bump up the damage, they just need more open maps like Caustic.

And people complain SRM's aren't good enough because at range they don't do enough damage... thats is their whole point, they are supposed to suck at range, but when you are in close they just destory you. And don't give that BS about avoiding it. You can't always just stay out of range of an SRM boat, they can be made too fast. Not to mention how effective lights have made the SSRM.

This crap about the LRM's and SRM's sucking is just stupid to me. I'm sorry I don't mean to make it sound personal or sling insults but anyone that honestly understand Battletech knows both weapons opperate as intended and they are infact quite potent in their role and there is no reason for the damage increase. The only reason I see people complain about them is that they want a nobrainer easy to use weapon that won't over heat them.

[Orgasmo]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Yes it is and thats exactly what I've said. I just want the damage put back to its base.

They were already nerfed once, and there's no need to nerf the second time. Learn to maintain range. Or you want to follow TT and cut all armor value in half?

Edited by Orgasmo, 14 January 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[M4rtyr]

SixStringSamurai, on 14 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

You do realize we are arguing about a mere .5 difference in damage versus doubled armor values. The reason some of the weapons have increased values and others do not is so that you can retain the intended function of the weapon in a non TT setting. While it TT you could crit per missile or laser and annihilate a mech on a decent roll, that roll was the factor. In MWO everything is real time so you have to strike a balance somewhere other wise if you doubled the weapon damage values you would throw this game way out wack. Mechs like centurions and Dragons would be little more then target practice since even with increased armor values aiming the weapons your self your able to hit a moving target and it's pretty easy to strip mechs of arms and weapons. Light mechs have their "lag shield" so they fair better then they should. There are no movement turns or attack turns, or facing rolls. To account for these changes in the mechanic this is why missiles in general have slight buffs.

Sorry but .5 damage PER MISSILE when you can fire quite a massive number of missiles is hardly a small increase in damage. But you don't just have to raise damage to balance things. Buff the missile damage and drop the laser heat. They over heat far too mcuh anyway simply because the increased fire rate from TT without addequetly addjusting heat disipation.

Why do you think everyone talks about missile boats or streak lights... I've never seen a thread saying "NERF the ML boats!".

[Havyek]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

You have no idea.. 2 mechs, or more, can fire on an enemy when only one mech is exposed. And when done right that spotting mech is the hardest to hit light mech.

I'm not saying you didn't need any LOS, but it is still the only weapon you can use and not get shot back at. Get real.

Yeah I'm guessing you're one of the players that has been around for a while and seen some of the changes that you are requesting when they were actually in the game?

No?

TT values in a live-action game don't work.
The devs created the game with the TT values. They then doubled the armour values because matches would end in seconds with the ability to actually put shots where you want them.
They then increased the damages of certain spray and pray weapons like SRMs and LRMs to do more than be an annoyance to even light 'Mechs. MLAS were still the king so their heat and damage were adjusted. PPCs and LLAS were still largely ignored due to their high heat and the speed that 'Mechs boating MLAS could simply close range, so they were adjusted as well (LLAS heat lowered, damage increased, PPCs projectile speed increased).

Like many others I remember the cries of "NERF MLAS!" When you could put a 400XL engine in a Hunchback 4P along with 9 SLAS or 9MLAS and they would run around at 200 km/h (or whatever stupid number they got up to) and pretty near 1 shot everything from behind. They were also hard as hell to hit.
To combat this, MLAS and SLAS had their numbers tweaked a bit, and you can no longer fit any engine into any chassis.
Other changes have happened that I can't recall off the top of my head, but the moral of the story is that
TT VALUES DON'T WORK IN LIVE-ACTION!

Edited by BDU Havoc, 14 January 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Noth]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

LRM's arn't supposed to do alot of damage... but for some stupid reason everyone here seem to think every weapon should be a main killer. No, they aren't. I will say however LRM's have a problem that most of the maps are far to tight (short range) that you can only use them in IDF or the enemy is already within you're minimum. But thats still not reason to bump up the damage, they just need more open maps like Caustic.

And people complain SRM's aren't good enough because at range they don't do enough damage... thats is their whole point, they are supposed to suck at range, but when you are in close they just destory you. And don't give that BS about avoiding it. You can't always just stay out of range of an SRM boat, they can be made too fast. Not to mention how effective lights have made the SSRM.

This crap about the LRM's and SRM's sucking is just stupid to me. I'm sorry I don't mean to make it sound personal or sling insults but anyone that honestly understand Battletech knows both weapons opperate as intended and they are infact quite potent in their role and there is no reason for the damage increase. The only reason I see people complain about them is that they want a nobrainer easy to use weapon that won't over heat them.

LRMs only do a lot of damage when boated. Anything boated should be able to dish out the damage. Not boated they do a good job of wearing down targets and occasionally killing a damage runner.

If I can't avoid the SRM boater, I'm in something that can take a hit from them and likely deal just as much damage back. If I'm in something that can't take a hit I can generally avoid them. If they set up a nice ambush around the corner and I don't read it coming, awesome they'd played to their strengths and I messed up. SRMs should destroy when at close range, they are the single closest range weapon in the game, they'd be useless if they could wreck people. If I can learn to maintain range between 180 meters and 200 meters in order to keep a lock on an ECM raven, it should be more than easy to maintain range from a SRM boat.

Again, SRMs were never a problem until recently and they have not been buffed or anything, in fact all the other weapons (minus streaks) have been buffed. So by comparison to other weapons, SRMs should be worse than other weapons.

Again the reason you see so many of them is because ECM encourages close range combat. Before ECM you saw a lot less of them. The problem is not the SRM as they have not changed. The problem lies in other areas of the game design and the fact that players are developing bad habit because of that design.

[M4rtyr]

Orgasmo, on 14 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

They were already nerfed once, and there's no need to nerf the second time. Learn to maintain range. Or you want to follow TT and cut all armor value in half?

Armor value has nothing to do with the balance... the issue is are missiles balances with other weapons, no they aren't. Has nothing to do with the doubled armor. and the armor was doubled no doubt because kill times were way to short to enjoy the play. Well when you hit for 18 damage more (72 vs 90) on an SRMCat alpha to one location.

As far as learning to maintain range, my main mech is the Hunchie 4SP. I've not increased the engine so still just 64 KPH and I still have no problem getting in close to anyone. So a faster SRM boat can do it to. This isn't just a tactics issue, sorry.

Edited by M4rtyr, 14 January 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Noth]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Sorry but .5 damage PER MISSILE when you can fire quite a massive number of missiles is hardly a small increase in damage. But you don't just have to raise damage to balance things. Buff the missile damage and drop the laser heat. They over heat far too mcuh anyway simply because the increased fire rate from TT without addequetly addjusting heat disipation.

Why do you think everyone talks about missile boats or streak lights... I've never seen a thread saying "NERF the ML boats!".

I don't know how you build your mechs or fire (you must be alphaing all the time) I can fire lasers pretty much non stop in most my builds. Heck, one of my stalker builds I can chain fire my Large lasers for a 45 seconds before over heating (longer than pretty much any single portion of time I stay out of caver. I had a PPC build and people were shocked by the fact that I was constantly firing throughout the match. My SRM stalker overheats more than my Large laser stalker.

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Armor value has nothing to do with the balance... the issue is are missiles balances with other weapons, no they aren't. Has nothing to do with the doubled armor. and the armor was doubled no doubt because kill times were way to short to enjoy the play. Well when you hit for 18 damage more (72 vs 90) on an SRMCat alpha to one location.

As far as learning to maintain range, my main mech is the Hunchie 4SP. I've not increased the engine so still just 64 KPH and I still have no problem getting in close to anyone. So a faster SRM boat can do it to. This is just a tactics issue, sorry.

Again, testing proved that after the armor doubling, the stock numbers for LRMs and SRMs simply were not enough. even at 1.5 LRMs were useless. After the nerf to SRM spread, they fell off of many builds. Again you are essentially saying taht all previous testing is wrong and your anecdotal evidence is right.

Edited by Noth, 14 January 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[M4rtyr]

BDU Havoc, on 14 January 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Yeah I'm guessing you're one of the players that has been around for a while and seen some of the changes that you are requesting when they were actually in the game?

No?

TT values in a live-action game don't work.
The devs created the game with the TT values. They then doubled the armour values because matches would end in seconds with the ability to actually put shots where you want them.
They then increased the damages of certain spray and pray weapons like SRMs and LRMs to do more than be an annoyance to even light 'Mechs. MLAS were still the king so their heat and damage were adjusted. PPCs and LLAS were still largely ignored due to their high heat and the speed that 'Mechs boating MLAS could simply close range, so they were adjusted as well (LLAS heat lowered, damage increased, PPCs projectile speed increased).
Other changes have happened that I can't recall off the top of my head, but the moral of the story is that
TT VALUES DON'T WORK IN LIVE-ACTION!

No they don't work in Live action mainly due to the fire rate. however, you are honestly going to tell me that SRM's need the higher damage for no other reason then spread, which is part of their balance, or short range, part of their balance again, or the doubleing of armor? Thats all BS.

I will grant you that ML and MPL have had their heat dropped one point I missed that, but they still are at much more of a disadvantage then missiles. putting the missile damage will not hurt them. I don't care if I wasn't here to see it, I know how much damage they would do and how it's applied. All it'll do is put them more in line and you'll get less complaints about missile boats. Again, not seeing any complaint about laser boats.

[MustrumRidcully]

MLs and MPLs had their heat increased, not dropped. TT Medium Lasers deal 5 damage and produce 3 heat, MW:O Medium Lasers del 5 damage and produce 4 heat. Or, alternatively, they deal 12.5 damage and 10 heat over 10 seconds (vs 5 damage and 3 heat over 10 seconds). Or 6.25 damage and 5 heat over 10 seconds if you want to account for double armour.

[M4rtyr]

Noth, on 14 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't know how you build your mechs or fire (you must be alphaing all the time) I can fire lasers pretty much non stop in most my builds. Heck, one of my stalker builds I can chain fire my Large lasers for a 45 seconds before over heating (longer than pretty much any single portion of time I stay out of caver. I had a PPC build and people were shocked by the fact that I was constantly firing throughout the match. My SRM stalker overheats more than my Large laser stalker.



Again, testing proved that after the armor doubling, the stock numbers for LRMs and SRMs simply were not enough. even at 1.5 LRMs were useless. After the nerf to SRM spread, they fell off of many builds. Again you are essentially saying taht all previous testing is wrong and your anecdotal evidence is right.

I've not payed for DHS on my 4SP yet, geting the 3rd hunchie first for elites. But I stager fire my 4 MLs, one arm then the other and overheat witht he stock number of sinks. In TT I wouldn't overheat like I do with just those 4, but I have a higher fire rate but the heat disipation rate isn't at the same level as the fire rate for lasters. Its why the heats been dropped on some energy weapons and why laser/ppc boats don't work, or at least not as well as missile or ballistic boats and missile boats are better then ballistics.

But AGIAN.... if the damages for missiles were so bad after the armor double why weren't other damage's terrible?

I'm not saying all testing was wrong, I'm just not agreeing with what people expect from their weapons. SRM's are meant to have the spread, thats how they were not OP'ed in TT. Even Streaks in TT had a spread for hit locations, all missiles would hit but they still spread. and LRM's aren't ever meant to do mass damage, so doing crap damage as you say is balanced to me. Because lrms can shoot you when you can't shoot them back. Or does the value of a light, or even an Atlas getting the extra damage to their target not mean anything.

I don't doubt that the low damage or spread annoyed people. but do they really understand Battletech or are they just working based on what they thing it should do based on other criteria?

MustrumRidcully, on 14 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

MLs and MPLs had their heat increased, not dropped. TT Medium Lasers deal 5 damage and produce 3 heat, MW:O Medium Lasers del 5 damage and produce 4 heat. Or, alternatively, they deal 12.5 damage and 10 heat over 10 seconds (vs 5 damage and 3 heat over 10 seconds). Or 6.25 damage and 5 heat over 10 seconds if you want to account for double armour.

Heh it has been a while... was thinking 5 damge 5 heat. so it was raised no wounder the heat is a problem.

So double armor needed more damage from missiles but less sustained damage from lasers.. makes sense.

Sigh