237 replies to this topic

[Bagheera]

Nope.

[Even Dark]

open your eyes and thougt what happend if the weapon and mech balance is not fine

then you find in the endgame allways the same mechtyps as example Raven. if ecm not going be take a hard nerf then allways runnung 3L around. and the other ones? right just used for getting xp to unlock the 3L. some ppl for sure will here and there ride a jenner but j4f.

same with atlas, or comando and the other mechs. and there is a different wich typ from wich class you play. if the different is to large then some mechs get the status unseen.

most ppl take only the best mechs, its right cool now you dominate other guys wich farming xp with normal builds but then?

same with srms... if more and more ppl see how powerful srm are then all take this and you have srm pew pew the one wich fire 1st wins.. wohoooo. my next mech i hold for sure is the catapult a1.

in mwo is the balance not there and so its not worth to play and hold different mechs.

when i think that in a half year if nothing changed you log into the battlefield and see only ecm, srm builds and and around dunno not worth to play then.

Edited by Even Dark, 14 January 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree that the hardpoint system isn't helping. PGI needs to decide whether or not they want to use hardpoint restrictions as a real balancing mechanic. Right now we're stuck dealing with hardpoints as a "kind of" balance system.

But that being said, with the way things are now, any weapons which aren't balanced by the traditional mechanics (heat, weight, slots, ammo, damage, firing rate, and range) will still be unbalanced and will still be taken advantage of.

A lot of people argue that boats are the problem, but they're not the root of it. What boats really do is take an unbalanced weapon and magnify whatever advantage it has. A 20% efficiency advantage on any one weapon still makes it an unbalanced weapon, no matter how many are on a mech. It's just easier to ignore if there are only one or two.

Mind you, I'm not saying that SRMs are incredibly overpowered. They're not. But they ARE overpowered. I don't know about anyone else, but I want to play a game that encourages varied usage and tactics and fully balanced mechanics are what makes that possible.

Do you use SRM's? I do not in hell builds just a couple in a hunch. I avg 300-600 damage. Hunch back 4p med laser build 300-600 points of damage. Then I go in my Cicada with 4 pulse lasers and I avg 300-600 damage. Then I go grab my dragon and avg bout 400-600 points of damage He has a srm 6 lbx and lasers. Then I pull out my cent with three streaks a lbx and med lasers. If there's no ecm it avgerages about 500-800 damage. Srm's arent OP

Edited by PropagandaWar, 14 January 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Vernius Ix]

SRM's are fine, stop the QQ and move along ffs

[Writhenn]

This just in! Shotgun weapon does massive amount of unfocused damage at close range.

[Cardsharp]

I say leave them alone. Spread has already been increased. Heat increased for boating.

They already hit like a pillow outside of 120m. The only thing they have going for them is the brutal DMG at short range.

[Thuzel]

PropagandaWar, on 14 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Do you use SRM's? I do not in hell builds just a couple in a hunch. I avg 300-600 damage. Hunch back 4p med laser build 300-600 points of damage. Then I go in my Cicada with 4 pulse lasers and I avg 300-600 damage. Then I go grab my dragon and avg bout 400-600 points of damage He has a srm 6 lbx and lasers. Then I pull out my cent with three streaks a lbx and med lasers. If there's no ecm it avgerages about 500-800 damage. Srm's arent OP

Yes, I've used SRM builds of all types and non-SRM builds as well.

I'm not sure what you're saying. The mechs you mention only have small to maybe moderate SRM usage. Try something with more SRMs and see what happens.

As I've stated a couple of times, SRMs are not incredibly overpowered, only about 20 to 25% better than they should be. That number won't be very noticeable when you're only doing 15 to 30 points of SRM damage per strike. That's only about 3 to 6 points more than it should be. However, when you're doing 40+ points of SRM damage a strike, it becomes fairly well evident.

-- EDIT --

Apparently a lot of people are misreading what I wrote. I'm not saying 40+ points of damage is overpowered. I'm saying that a weapon that is too powerful by 20% starts seeing real gains about that level and should be noticeable to the pilot.

Edited by Thuzel, 14 January 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Noth]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes, I've used SRM builds of all types and non-SRM builds as well.

I'm not sure what you're saying. The mechs you mention only have small to maybe moderate SRM usage. Try something with more SRMs and see what happens.

As I've stated a couple of times, SRMs are not incredibly overpowered, only about 20 to 25% better than they should be. That number won't be very noticeable when you're only doing 15 to 30 points of SRM damage per strike. That's only about 3 to 6 points more than it should be. However, when you're doing 40+ points of SRM damage a strike, it becomes fairly well evident.

40+ points of damage spread over the entire mech is fine. You have no problem with 2 AC20 dropping 40 damage into one area at a longer range than SRMs (this is a much deadly style of damage), but you have issues with 40+ damage coming out from SRMs and hitting random areas unless pretty much point blank on the target? SRMs hit like pillows out at the range AC20s can kill. Dual AC20 can alsoone shot things easier due to it's damage. If you have an issue with SRM damage you better have an issue with AC20 damage... heck you should have an issue with any boated weapons damage.

Edited by Noth, 14 January 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[Writhenn]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes, I've used SRM builds of all types and non-SRM builds as well.

I'm not sure what you're saying. The mechs you mention only have small to maybe moderate SRM usage. Try something with more SRMs and see what happens.

As I've stated a couple of times, SRMs are not incredibly overpowered, only about 20 to 25% better than they should be. That number won't be very noticeable when you're only doing 15 to 30 points of SRM damage per strike. That's only about 3 to 6 points more than it should be. However, when you're doing 40+ points of SRM damage a strike, it becomes fairly well evident.

40+ points spread over the entire torso including arms. That's OP? Maybe you should be playing Tetris.

[PropagandaWar]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes, I've used SRM builds of all types and non-SRM builds as well.

I'm not sure what you're saying. The mechs you mention only have small to maybe moderate SRM usage. Try something with more SRMs and see what happens.

As I've stated a couple of times, SRMs are not incredibly overpowered, only about 20 to 25% better than they should be. That number won't be very noticeable when you're only doing 15 to 30 points of SRM damage per strike. That's only about 3 to 6 points more than it should be. However, when you're doing 40+ points of SRM damage a strike, it becomes fairly well evident.

Im saying what the guys above me are saying. they are spread out. The Hellcats blow back is brutal and better make short work of the mech its fighting or itll get burnt. I was also saying that the damage I do is based off of me not my mech with exception when I use streaks (Others LRM's) my Damage skyrockets. Sure I get the occasional 800-1200 damage games but again its my gunning more than the weapon itself.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

The problem are not the SRMs, but the SRM boats, which is a symptom of PGI's hodge-podge hardpoint system. The way hardpoints are assigned is almost haphazard, with little consideration for the orignal design, and absolutely zero consistancy.

Stalker STK-3H has LRM20 in each arm, but only receives 1 missile Hardpoint.
Catapult CPLT-C4, has an LRM20 in each arm and receives 2 missile Hardpoints.
yet the CPLT-A1, which only mounts an LRM15 per arm, receives 3 missile Hardpoints.

Of coruse there are some pretty bizzare contracitions.
Centurion CN9-A with an LRM10 gets an unprecidented 3 missile hardpoints
Awesome AWS-8R receives 2 missile hardpoints in each torso for its LRM15's while
Awesome AWS-8T gets 2 missile hardpoints for 1 LRM15, but only 1 missile hardpoint for another.

[Noth]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 January 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

The problem are not the SRMs, but the SRM boats, which is a symptom of PGI's hodge-podge hardpoint system. The way hardpoints are assigned is almost haphazard, with little consideration for the orignal design, and absolutely zero consistancy.

Stalker STK-3H has LRM20 in each arm, but only receives 1 missile Hardpoint.
Catapult CPLT-C4, has an LRM20 in each arm and receives 2 missile Hardpoints.
yet the CPLT-A1, which only mounts an LRM15 per arm, receives 3 missile Hardpoints.

Of coruse there are some pretty bizzare contracitions.
Centurion CN9-A with an LRM10 gets an unprecidented 3 missile hardpoints
Awesome AWS-8R receives 2 missile hardpoints in each torso for its LRM15's while
Awesome AWS-8T gets 2 missile hardpoints for 1 LRM15, but only 1 missile hardpoint for another.

Incorrect... People are complaining about the damage of them when boated, yet they seem to have no problem with other weapons that can do similar damage when boated at a much better range and with much more precision.

Hardpoints aren't really based on what was orginally in that spot. They are more derived from trying to create unique layout along with keeping the total number hardpoints the same as the other Variants. There are exceptions and they are usually called out by the player base in the feddback for that specific mech.

[Thuzel]

Writhen, on 14 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

40+ points spread over the entire torso including arms. That's OP? Maybe you should be playing Tetris.

No, I'm not saying 40+ is OP, I'm saying the extra damage becomes noticeable at that level. 20% of 40 is 8 points per strike, which, in my opinion, is where you start seeing significant gains.

And keep the Tetris junk for yourself, I do just fine in this game.

[Noth]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

No, I'm not saying 40+ is OP, I'm saying the extra damage becomes noticeable at that level. 20% of 40 is 8 points per strike, which, in my opinion, is where you start seeing significant gains.

And keep the Tetris junk for yourself, I do just fine in this game.

Actually you are. You flat out said that at 40+ they are too strong. Yet other weapons when boated can do similar damage in a much more precise manner (killing faster because of it) at longer range. If you have no problems with that then you should have no problems with SRMs spreading their damage heavily at any range other than sub 100 meters.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Noth, on 14 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Incorrect... People are complaining about the damage of them when boated, yet they seem to have no problem with other weapons that can do similar damage when boated at a much better range and with much more precision.

You answer further explains why boating is a problem. To suggest that an SRM boats isn't overpowered because a PPC boats can do as much damage isn't validation that boats aren't a problem, it is a condemnation of boats in general.

[Noth]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

You answer further explains why boating is a problem. To suggest that an SRM boats isn't overpowered because a PPC boats can do as much damage isn't validation that boats aren't a problem, it is a condemnation of boats in general.

You can't escape boating without making virtually all mechs multi weapons platforms (they all aren't) or without removing a mass of customization.

[Thuzel]

Noth, on 14 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Actually you are. You flat out said that at 40+ they are too strong. Yet other weapons when boated can do similar damage in a much more precise manner (killing faster because of it) at longer range. If you have no problems with that then you should have no problems with SRMs spreading their damage heavily at any range other than sub 100 meters.

No, I didn't. This is what I said:

As I've stated a couple of times, SRMs are not incredibly overpowered, only about 20 to 25% better than they should be. That number won't be very noticeable when you're only doing 15 to 30 points of SRM damage per strike. That's only about 3 to 6 points more than it should be. However, when you're doing 40+ points of SRM damage a strike, it becomes fairly well evident.


If you actually read that section, I said "it" meaning the extra 20%. The extra becomes noticeable at that level. 40 points is just an arbitrary number. 20% is just 20%, regardless of the source number, but 20% of a smaller number generally isn't going to jump out at someone.

What I'm talking about is the level of boating when an overpowered weapon starts to have significant gains on other non-overpowered weapons. To me, at a 20% efficiency gain, anything over or around 8 points of damage per strike is when you really start seeing how unbalanced it is.

[Writhenn]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

No, I'm not saying 40+ is OP, I'm saying the extra damage becomes noticeable at that level. 20% of 40 is 8 points per strike, which, in my opinion, is where you start seeing significant gains.

And keep the Tetris junk for yourself, I do just fine in this game.

I don't need to, not complaining about something that is supposed to hit hard when you're within 90 meters.

[Thuzel]

Writhen, on 14 January 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I don't need to, not complaining about something that is supposed to hit hard when you're within 90 meters.

Not complaining, just pointing out the math and the imbalance. That's what we're supposed to be doing.

The OP made a point and I agreed with him and then broke down the mechanics to show why I agreed. That's all.

Personally, I think a 20 to 25% imbalance is relatively less important than a lot of other things going on in this game, but that doesn't change the numbers. At the end of the day, I agree with the OP that SRMs are overpowered, and I've looked at the numbers to help understand why.

In actuality, the disturbing thing isn't the relatively insignificant SRM imbalance, it's how the community has responded to an honest investigation into the whole thing. Speaking of importance, SRMs possibly doing a little too much damage really doesn't compare to a community that apparently can't rationally explore the situation.

I'm just pointing out here that responses like "QQ more", "go play Tetris", and "stop complaining" (paraphrased) don't add anything constructive to any of this. But then again, these are the forums and it is what it is.

[Writhenn]

Thuzel, on 14 January 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Not complaining, just pointing out the math and the imbalance. That's what we're supposed to be doing.

The OP made a point and I agreed with him and then broke down the mechanics to show why I agreed. That's all.

Personally, I think a 20 to 25% imbalance is relatively less important than a lot of other things going on in this game, but that doesn't change the numbers. At the end of the day, I agree with the OP that SRMs are overpowered, and I've looked at the numbers to help understand why.

In actuality, the disturbing thing isn't the relatively insignificant SRM imbalance, it's how the community has responded to an honest investigation into the whole thing. Speaking of importance, SRMs possibly doing a little too much damage really doesn't compare to a community that apparently can't rationally explore the situation.

I'm just pointing out here that responses like "QQ more", "go play Tetris", and "stop complaining" (paraphrased) don't add anything constructive to any of this. But then again, these are the forums and it is what it is.

Math imbalance? Shotgun weapon can do X damage across the entire torso within 90 meters. Past that most don't hit and the missiles are useless past 270m. Every try to hit a light mech with SRM's? It's not math imbalance, it's lack of skill and understanding of weapon mechanics.

Please, tetris.