237 replies to this topic

[Vechs]

I think they're fine.

An SRM boat gives up a lot of things -- and the effective range is NOT 270m like it is with Medium lasers.

(1 medium laser = 1 ton for 5 damage + heat + channeling)

(1 SRM2 = 1 ton for 5 damage + ammo + flight time)

While the SRM2 can reliably hit out to 270 because the pattern is tight, the 4 and 6 packs scatter all over the place.

I'd say the effective range for an SRM6 is more like 100m and under.

You really have to hug someone to get the most out of the weapon system.

There are plenty of builds than can hit for 40 to 60 alpha damage from across the map with pinpoint precision on one location.

What's wrong with an SRM build being able to alpha for 70 to 90 by getting right next to you?

Nothing.

[Thuzel]

Vechs, on 13 January 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

There are plenty of builds than can hit for 40 to 60 alpha damage from across the map with pinpoint precision on one location.

Name them. Any builds that can do that also have other serious drawbacks. 2 Gauss builds only do 30, PPC builds can do anywhere from 20 to 40 (or a little more on the really heavy mechs) but they also have serious heat issues and a large minimum. LRM builds can do that, but they have extreme mitigating factors that SRMs don't (time to run for cover, AMS, ECM, and damage spread).

The truth is that a 65 ton mech throwing out sustainable 80 to 90 damage strikes and running at 85kph with a high degree of mobility: is a serious problem. The only reason it hasn't been talked about before is because there were other slightly larger problems around.

The only real restriction on those mechs are range, BUT, range is rarely an issue. It's almost trivial to close within 150 meters without taking damage or even being noticed in some cases. The spread problem becomes mostly moot at those distances, and there really aren't any other con's to balance this out. AMS is only marginally effective against SRMs and the SRM flight time is fast enough to not really matter.

Tuning SRM damage down a few tenths of a point would go a long long way to making them balanced with other weapons.

Edited by Thuzel, 13 January 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Mikhalio]

SRM is fine, in the context of the damage and control required to fire the FOF missiles. Im my view, LRM's are too overpowered and should have half the damage they currently do. And their status should be relegated to a pure support firesupport weapon given their ability to be used inside their table top roles given TAG and boat-fits.

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

Srm's are indeed Fine as they are, if you don't like dying in a game i suggest tetris

[Mikhalio]

Peekaboo I C JU, on 13 January 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Srm's are indeed Fine as they are, if you don't like dying in a game i suggest tetris

May I quote you for my sig ? I like that as even in tetris, the fast moving pieces give new players trouble.

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

knock yourself out

[G4M3R]

If you get within 270m of a SRM boat it's kind of your fault. The info is there for everyone to see in the top right. (Target Gathering sort of helps too.) Know your enemy before you engage?

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

G4M3R, on 13 January 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

If you get within 270m of a SRM boat it's kind of your fault. The info is there for everyone to see in the top right. (Target Gathering sort of helps too.) Know your enemy before you engage?

You have no idea how many time i turned a corner to find myself face to face with a splatter cat...and yes...the first thing that went through my mind was OH CRAP!......but it is what it is, and no matter how many time i die to a mech or weapon set, i will never say they are OP....now some builds in certain scenarios are a little op, but no build is god mode....now was it the splatter cats fault i ran around like a chicken with its head cut off and wandered into his "oh Crap" range?...nope...i will just adjust my tactics to accomadate my builds strengths

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

I mean, that is like stopping right in front of a ac/20 cat in a jenner and then complaning about being popped in a hurry....

[Liam Neeson]

Zrave, on 13 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

1)I don't understand why SRM damage was buffed in comparison to tabletop.

2)When I play my srm stalker I routinely get over 1k damage.

3)I think a return to 2 damage per missile would be reasonable.

1) This is not tabletop, nor will it ever be.

2)Im betting you pug lots, or run with a well organised team. The only reason i can do so well with a srmcat is because PUGs have no teamwork/scouting and never look behind them. Ever.

3)Id be fine with this. Id still do 36 points of armor damage every shot, as opposed to 45,using effective positioning a good player will be just as effective. ^^still 1 shots lights, as well as mediums and heavys up the butt.


edit: with regards to 2) Ive tried running srm boats in organized 8man and im eiother the first one to die, or last to die after skulking about with only one 'ear' left cuz i lost one in the first exchange.

Final point, 50% of the issue is that ALL the maps are small, tight, and favour hard hitting SHORT RANGED or high burst weapons suited for this brawlfest. Yes even Caustic valley. Its openness is an elaborate illusion.

Edited by Liam Neeson, 13 January 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[M4rtyr]

SRM and LRM damage is wrong.

Why are all the weapons keeping to TT stats except for the missiles? I've yet to see a reason for it. But the higher damage isn't the only imbalance. Laser weapons are further unbalanced comparitavely because the higher fire rate and lack of altering heat disipation to match have makes ballistics and missiles the best weapons.

The missile damage needs to match the other weapon damages, right now they don't and it is a major facor in why you see such fast kills.

[Asmudius Heng]

G4M3R, on 13 January 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

If you get within 270m of a SRM boat it's kind of your fault. The info is there for everyone to see in the top right. (Target Gathering sort of helps too.) Know your enemy before you engage?

Sorry ECM stopped me finding that out.

But seriously - regular SRMs seems fine to me. They are good but have plenty of drawbacks - used well they can be very dangerous of course and used poorly can feel like a waste of tonnage.

That feels balanced to me - risk vs reward with the reward feelign quite rewarding if you have the skill to do it right.

If netcode was better they would be ven more fun for me

[M4rtyr]

Liam Neeson, on 13 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

1) This is not tabletop, nor will it ever be.

Well tell the Devs that because all the other weapons use TT rules except rate of fire. That is why they have become out of balance.

[Liam Neeson]

M4rtyr, on 13 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Well tell the Devs that because all the other weapons use TT rules except rate of fire. That is why they have become out of balance.

Good idea. Give me a phone number, I'll call them right now.

[M4rtyr]

Seriously though...

TT rules have held up for all these years, they work, they are balanced.

Give me one reason why the LRMs and SRMs needed to be buffed but not the other weapons. There isn't one.

[Asheron Storm]

If we're using Ammo/damage ratio as a guide to which weapons are overpowered, then Energy weapons win the game. A single medium laser can do infinite damage using zero ammo.

Also, I enjoy watching srm-cats explode after I shoot them with my a/c 20.

That said, the biggest reason for the srm buff is the fact that 'mechs have double armor. That makes my a/c 20 equivalent to a/c 10 with really bad range in Battletech. The fact is that srm's should do far more damage then they do, along with every other weapon in the game. This would alleviate the problem of ECM lights, since a solid a/c 20 shot would pretty much end their day, rather than allow them to laugh it off and keep running around.

[M4rtyr]

Asheron Storm, on 13 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

If we're using Ammo/damage ratio as a guide to which weapons are overpowered, then Energy weapons win the game. A single medium laser can do infinite damage using zero ammo.

Also, I enjoy watching srm-cats explode after I shoot them with my a/c 20.

That said, the biggest reason for the srm buff is the fact that 'mechs have double armor. That makes my a/c 20 equivalent to a/c 10 with really bad range in Battletech. The fact is that srm's should do far more damage then they do, along with every other weapon in the game. This would alleviate the problem of ECM lights, since a solid a/c 20 shot would pretty much end their day, rather than allow them to laugh it off and keep running around.

They do twice whats been balanced all these years and you think more would be better? You aren't supposed to be able to one shot an atlas CT. Come on people.

[SpiralRazor]

Thuzel, on 13 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Not complaining, just showing an imbalance. That's exactly what we're supposed to be doing right now.

It's actually pretty straightforward.

Damage spread from an SRM is almost identical to damage spread from a laser. I know this from watching countless others as well as playing myself and keeping track. So the damage spread argument is irrelevant. I can also tell you that at anything under 125ish meters, it's not that hard to put the entire SRM salvo into a single location, with just a little hitting off-target.

It comes down to numbers. Supposing for a second that we look at weapon weight and effectiveness with heat and ammo in the picture.

In order to be 50% heat neutral, a medium laser needs 6 or 7 heatsinks. That means that the weight cost to effectively add and use a medium laser is around 7 tons total. For that 7 tons, you get a single weapon that can do about 1.6 to 1.7 damage a second. Taking the weight and damage into consideration, you get a return on investment of about .24 dps a ton.

An SRM6, at 50% heat neutral needs 5 heatsinks. Adding in 2 tons of ammo, that SRM6 will cost you 10 tons total and will put out 3.75 damage a second. Using the same math there, we see the SRM6 gives us .37 dps a ton.

So including ammo and heat, the SRM6 is about 157% the effectiveness of the medium laser (the medium laser does seem to be well balanced right now). That number is way too high.

Considering you lose a little bit of range going from the laser to the SRM, I'd expect to see a small boost in effectiveness to the favor of the SRM, but nowhere near 157%. That's why we're seeing SRM boats that can absolutely dominate the field, they can simply out damage anything else in the field, by a very wide margin.

I know it's not always about numbers, but when you're talking about that much of a difference, the numbers need to at least be considered.

The SRM's damage needs to come down a bit, their heat increased, or their ammo reduced.

P.S. feel free to check my math, it's late....

Still dont get it.....SRMs are mostly worthless at 270. Medium Lasers are still doing a full 5 often to one or two locations and good out till 540. And were talking about alpha capability? Right, then heat neutral rarely enters into that..

Tons of damage from a x6 SRM strike? Yes, of course...but you have to be pretty close to get it all on the same panel. I can be a lot further away with Six LLs from MUCH further away. In fact, ive taken off several heads in one go from 450-550. And if i dont get it on the first rake, ive got 2 more before shutting down.

[Asheron Storm]

M4rtyr, on 13 January 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

They do twice whats been balanced all these years and you think more would be better? You aren't supposed to be able to one shot an atlas CT. Come on people.

I pilot an Atlas and I've never been "one-shotted" by anything, let alone an srm-cat.

So in conclusion..

"Bring it!"

[BerryChunks]

They became "buffed" because they doubled armor in this game. They'd be useless if they only did 1 damage.

The weapon damage/armor dynamic was changed by doubling armor. There is the "possible effective double damage" with weapons that are firing faster than Battletech base rules, like lasers and such, however, that "possible effective double damage" isn't always going to work.

Between bad Zoom, Damage over time, people using Torso rolling tricks, and just plain bad netcode, you're likely to spread that damage out all over the place unless you're point blank.

Even "burst" weapons like gauss and AC/20 fall prey to this, due to requiring two shots to do the same "effective damage" as before instead of one, meaning that between the above issues, you're likely to NOT hit the same place twice, spreading damage out.

On the other hand, there is no "possible effective double armor". Bad piloting, good shooting, or someone just being afk or noob will NOT decrease armor effectiveness. It will ALWAYS be " DOUBLE ARMOR" in comparison to "Possible effective double damage" of weapons.