237 replies to this topic

[Volume]

Vassago Rain, on 13 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

It's a shotgun. It spreads all over anything you shoot. You'll do hundreds of damage, but it doesn't kill as quickly as focused AC fire.

artemis says hello

[BerryChunks]

SpiralRazor, on 13 January 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Still dont get it.....SRMs are mostly worthless at 270. Medium Lasers are still doing a full 5 often to one or two locations and good out till 540. And were talking about alpha capability? Right, then heat neutral rarely enters into that..

Tons of damage from a x6 SRM strike? Yes, of course...but you have to be pretty close to get it all on the same panel. I can be a lot further away with Six LLs from MUCH further away. In fact, ive taken off several heads in one go from 450-550. And if i dont get it on the first rake, ive got 2 more before shutting down.

you realize that damage falls linearly out from 270 to 540 damage, which isnt even canon?

Also, I don't think OP has met SSRM kitties or packs of SSRM ravens yet. talk about ********. 150 KPH so any non-locking weapon is near impossible to hit with, while they can just hold down the mouse button and fire whenever it locks, for a 100% chance to hit with missiles that do even more damage than SRMs, somehow.

BUrst Lasers like all previous incarnations of mechwarrior and even like Battletech Core Rules, no double armor, and better netcode, and people MIGHT be able to deal with these griefers. They're just as bad as the griefers that use their level 80 WoW character to corpse camp in contested territory against newbs. THey're just as bad as griefers who spawn camp to get easy kills. There's no use in saying otherwise, and the only people against the OP in here are apologists who enjoy having fun at the expense of destroying others' capability to have fun.

Edited by BerryChunks, 13 January 2013 - 09:57 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

M4rtyr, on 13 January 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Seriously though...

TT rules have held up for all these years, they work, they are balanced.

Give me one reason why the LRMs and SRMs needed to be buffed but not the other weapons. There isn't one.

M4rtyr, on 13 January 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Seriously though...

TT rules have held up for all these years, they work, they are balanced.

Give me one reason why the LRMs and SRMs needed to be buffed but not the other weapons. There isn't one.

because that damage was so spread out, it wasnt effective.

For a LONG LONG time, you could rain 1500 rounds on a heavy mech and not take it down.... True story for much of the CBT......both systems needed an increase.

[BerryChunks]

SpiralRazor, on 13 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

because that damage was so spread out, it wasnt effective.

For a LONG LONG time, you could rain 1500 rounds on a heavy mech and not take it down.... True story for much of the CBT......both systems needed an increase.

Clearly, you don't understand what support and crit seeking systems are for. I would've enjoyed smashing you with my tactical use of weapon systems.

[Quxudica]

Fat Samurai, on 13 January 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Whoever is letting a 6 SRM6 Stalker get closer than 100m of his mech deserves anything that he gets.

Because clearly no one else runs builds that fight at that distance.

[M4rtyr]

BerryChunks, on 13 January 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

They became "buffed" because they doubled armor in this game. They'd be useless if they only did 1 damage.

And why did they not raise other weapons when they doubled armor. Well they doubled armor because people were dieing too fast in. If they didn't change the damambe of other weapons why change the damage of missiles?

LRM's arn't supposed to do much damage, its the advantage of being able to hit somone when you can't get hit.

SRM's are designed to hit hard but spread it out unless point blank, but when you double that damage its too much.

Doubling armor doesn't have any meaning to this, because if you double armor then double missile damage ONLY then missiles are not in balance with other weapons regardless of the armor. That is exactly why people whined about LRM SSRM boats and why those boaters are whining about ECM now.

Missles do too much damage. I don't care about the spread because it doesn't have a huge effect. These most of the areas on the maps are very tight quaters, you can't even have LOS on a target thats outside 150-200m in most cases. So when I get in on someone with my 4SP even its 2 SRM6 end up doing 48 damage to the torso. 24 damage per six pack for a weapon that is basically tiny as far as fitting them and has no heat. That is simply not balanced with the other weapons.

Edited by M4rtyr, 13 January 2013 - 11:08 PM.

[M4rtyr]

SpiralRazor, on 13 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

because that damage was so spread out, it wasnt effective.

For a LONG LONG time, you could rain 1500 rounds on a heavy mech and not take it down.... True story for much of the CBT......both systems needed an increase.

As i said, but will say it again. LRM's weren't meant to be the win all. Especially on a heavy or assualt. But what they give you is ALL that damage without you getting hit in response. If you ask me thats priceless even if its only 1 damage per missile.

And as the other guy said, Getting a nice cirt on something that that spread is always a nice thing, not to mention head hits. Buteven so, SRM's really don't have that much of a spread at the ranges most combat takes place in.

For instance I've even lightened the armor in my legs and placed my ammo there, why, because they are almost never get any serious damage, everyone targets the torsos/arms and SRMs never hit them either because of the close range.

[Tennex]

i have a 6SRM boat and do 700damage average a game.

Mechs I 1 shot: Ravens, Jenners, commandos, Cicadas, Hunchbacks, XL Cataphracts.

if its not 1 shot most of heir weapon systems are gone. I brawl regulary with Atlases and win, 2 shot their right torso. AC20 gone, arm gone, if XL engine mech dead.


its really unfair. but i'm going to make the most of the C-bills because nobody seems to know



just let it happen

Edited by Tennex, 13 January 2013 - 11:38 PM.

[Ursh]

The thing with SRM catapults is that they're not slow mechs. Most are running between a 280xl-315xl, which can put them up over 84kph with speed tweak.

A lot of the boats are sort of gimmick builds, but not the splatapult.

When an SRM cat is in play, you absolutely have to kill it first, because it's far more dangerous than anything else the other team could be fielding.

[Vassago Rain]

Volume, on 13 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

artemis says hello

Extra ammo says hello, too.

[MustrumRidcully]

StrataDragoon, on 13 January 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I think was should all play the game more and posting on forums less =D

But the game has less game play modes than the forum.

In the forum, you have

• memes
  
• balance discussions (optionally with excel charts*)
  
• economy discussions
  
• graphics discussions
  
• battletech table top discussions
  
• spot-the-troll
  
• complain-about-complaining
  
• ... and more

MW:O just has

• Conquest
  
• Assault

*) like this:



This is a calculation of damage/weight comparisons for builds that have enough heat sinks to fire for 15, 20 or 30 seconds, dealing 120, 160 or 240 damage in the time, and with enough ammo to do this 8, 6 or 4 times. As you can see, missiles play in a different league than other weapons.

Is that a sign they are OP? Maybe, maybe not. The problem is - how do you rate the "shotgun" effect? With ballistics and energy weapons, you can always get damage exactly to one hit location if you're reasonably good. But it should be noted - if the SRM and LRM values are okay, than the LB10-X AC values aren't. If the LB10-X AC values are okay, than the SRM and LRM values can't be okay.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 13 January 2013 - 11:53 PM.

[Odins Fist]

Zrave, on 13 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

"Srm Damage Too High?"

.
ANSWER: "NO", and why would you ask..??
.
Shotgun effect, and as I "ROUTINELY" get more kills, and do "MORE" damage then a friend with more SRM6 launchers than I have, then I have to wonder, is shotgun effect happening..?? ANSWER: "YEP"

Edited by Odins Fist, 14 January 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

BerryChunks, on 13 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Clearly, you don't understand what support and crit seeking systems are for. I would've enjoyed smashing you with my tactical use of weapon systems.

LOL....ive forgotten more TT games then youve ever played sir. LRMS were not support weapons in TT....they caused lots of damage from far away, in 5 point blocks. Or they laid mine fields, or swarm rounds to attack clusters of the enemy, or sometimes even dealt a full damage hit to one location...in the far future, you could even get LRM rounds that set things on fire...true story sir!

Seriously though, its very apparent you dont understand what weapons are for at all either here or IRL. And you certainly dont understand how the critical system works here in MWO. Id suggest reading that dev post carefully.... I can tell you right now thats exactly why Machine guns are completely worthless for anything right now.

I can also tell you that IRL the purpose of rocket barrages from trucks like the T34 Calliope and M270 was nothing other then completely destroying anything in the targeted area.....A short but massively intense barrage of explosions compared to gun based artillery. Basically its to erase the enemy from existence and mop up whatever shattered remnants are left over by your other combined arms forces.

/owned.

[M4rtyr]

Odins Fist, on 14 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

.
ANSWER: "NO", and why would you ask..??
.
Shotgun effect, and as I "ROUTINELY" get more kills, and do "MORE" damage then a friend with more SRM6 launchers than I have, then I have to wonder, is shotgun effect happening..?? ANSWER: "YEP"

lol, what a joke. Maybe you have a better build then you're friend, maybe you're a better aim, maybe your friend gets focused first, maybe you just use all streaks, etc etc.

How about something with some substance to it. You always see posts like this in any MMO when balance/OP'ness topics come up. Someone just defending something with no basis behind it and likely because they use the OP item in some fasion.

In this can more weapons use the unbalanced damage of an SRM more then an SRM6.

[SpiralRazor]

M4rtyr, on 13 January 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

And why did they not raise other weapons when they doubled armor. Well they doubled armor because people were dieing too fast in. If they didn't change the damambe of other weapons why change the damage of missiles?

LRM's arn't supposed to do much damage, its the advantage of being able to hit somone when you can't get hit.

SRM's are designed to hit hard but spread it out unless point blank, but when you double that damage its too much.

Doubling armor doesn't have any meaning to this, because if you double armor then double missile damage ONLY then missiles are not in balance with other weapons regardless of the armor. That is exactly why people whined about LRM SSRM boats and why those boaters are whining about ECM now.

Missles do too much damage. I don't care about the spread because it doesn't have a huge effect. These most of the areas on the maps are very tight quaters, you can't even have LOS on a target thats outside 150-200m in most cases. So when I get in on someone with my 4SP even its 2 SRM6 end up doing 48 damage to the torso. 24 damage per six pack for a weapon that is basically tiny as far as fitting them and has no heat. That is simply not balanced with the other weapons.

SRM missiles do 2 damage in the TT, and 2.5 damage here in MWO.

LRMS do 1 damage in the TT, and 1.8 here in MWO.

There is no Spread stat in TT however, here in MWO they have to contend with movement, moving behind cover, doubled armor values, spread and a host of other things im not thinking of.

[Writhenn]

Nerf LRM damage to 1 per missile? Do you not see how garbage they are in their current state? Are we playing the same game?

Anything that is decent in this game, it has to be nerfed. Dumb fired missiles that shotgun spread are obviously too overpowered.

Can't wait to start seeing people ask for AC/20 to be nerfed because a k2 can mount two of them.

[SpiralRazor]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

lol, what a joke. Maybe you have a better build then you're friend, maybe you're a better aim, maybe your friend gets focused first, maybe you just use all streaks, etc etc.

How about something with some substance to it. You always see posts like this in any MMO when balance/OP'ness topics come up. Someone just defending something with no basis behind it and likely because they use the OP item in some fasion.

In this can more weapons use the unbalanced damage of an SRM more then an SRM6.

My basis is that ive used all these systems longer then nearly everyone else...Ive had the opportunity to go through every Buff/Nerf cycle they have let us see. I can categorically say that LRMS were only OP for those few days during the Artemis patch, and crazy under powered for most of there appearences.

Streaks were only a real danger to light and medium mechs....it took forever to kill heavies and it mostly wasnt even worth engaging Atlass with them, you would run out of ammo with the 375+ engine first before downing an Atlas.

SRMS were crazy, crazy OP for most of CBT......they used to have a tighter cone then Artemis gives them now, in effect always letting them hit the same panel...yeah..AT THAT TIME they did obsolete virtually every other weapon in the game. FInally the devs saw reason and changed the Spread value on them to something reasonable....After that change they were where they should have been for a long time.

SRMS *seem* strong right now because ECM makes a lot of other things seem so weak, not just LRMS and Streaks, and thats a fact.

[M4rtyr]

SpiralRazor, on 14 January 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

LOL....ive forgotten more TT games then youve ever played sir. LRMS were not support weapons in TT....they caused lots of damage from far away, in 5 point blocks. Or they laid mine fields, or swarm rounds to attack clusters of the enemy, or sometimes even dealt a full damage hit to one location...in the far future, you could even get LRM rounds that set things on fire...true story sir!

Umm, LRM's are a support weapon. They are artilery, the only weapon that could do IDF. Or would you rather claim that a LRM Cat with only 2 LRM launchers is a front line fighter. A freaking Locust can kill anything with onlt LRM's because they are a fire support weapon and are all but useless when you get in close, even in MWO.

Yes LRM's did a fair amount of damage but nothing unbalanced. Now instead of doing blocks of 5 damage they might as well be doing blocks of 10, thats out of balance.

Look there are reasons why the TT rules have all the weapons having such damage levels, tonnages, cit space, heat, etc. Now when you double the damage of only a couple weapon systems and leave EVERYTHING else the same it throws what was balanced into and unbalanced state. It's that simple.

And don't try saying this isn't TT, because they have based the weapons completely on TT.

There is no valid reason for the missiles to have their damage doubled. Only reason I've even heard is the doubled armor, well again, armor plays no part in the question of, are LRMs and SRMs balanced -COMPARED TO THE OTHER WEAPONS-..

Which they are not.

[M4rtyr]

SpiralRazor, on 14 January 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

SRM missiles do 2 damage in the TT, and 2.5 damage here in MWO.

LRMS do 1 damage in the TT, and 1.8 here in MWO.

There is no Spread stat in TT however, here in MWO they have to contend with movement, moving behind cover, doubled armor values, spread and a host of other things im not thinking of.

My bad, I mixed them up was thinknig SRMs were doing the higher ammount. But regardless its still not a valid change.

There is spread in TT, you randomize how many missiles hit and the location for each SRM, and for each 5 point block of LRMs (just to save time). Thats why Streaks in TT were a bump up, you hit with a Streak and all the missiles hit, but still not the same location, so streaks are even better in MWO by that much more.

There are movement modifiers to hit in TT. If a player can hit or not is meaningless.

There are cover based to hit modifiers in TT.If a player can hit or not is meaningless.

Armor is irrelevant to if one weapon is balanced with another weapon type. If the doubling of armor made missiles useless then why didn't it make a med laser useless. Common sense.

Spread I already covered.

There is nothing in the TT balance of missiles that warrents the changing of ONLY missile damage and nothing else in MWO.

Edit: Hell in TT even at point blank range you still had the shotgun effect and wouldn't even hit with all the missles. That is obviously NOT the case in MWO. Face facts, even if they had their correct damage an SRMCat would still get up in your face and hit you for 72 damage in likely 1 location, maybe 2 at point blank. Thats FAR FAR better then you can hope for in TT. But I don't think they need to be lower then base to balance them for MWO, they just need to hold the balance with all the other weapons thats been held for 20+ years.

Edited by M4rtyr, 14 January 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[M4rtyr]

SpiralRazor, on 14 January 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

My basis is that ive used all these systems longer then nearly everyone else...Ive had the opportunity to go through every Buff/Nerf cycle they have let us see. I can categorically say that LRMS were only OP for those few days during the Artemis patch, and crazy under powered for most of there appearences.

Streaks were only a real danger to light and medium mechs....it took forever to kill heavies and it mostly wasnt even worth engaging Atlass with them, you would run out of ammo with the 375+ engine first before downing an Atlas.

SRMS were crazy, crazy OP for most of CBT......they used to have a tighter cone then Artemis gives them now, in effect always letting them hit the same panel...yeah..AT THAT TIME they did obsolete virtually every other weapon in the game. FInally the devs saw reason and changed the Spread value on them to something reasonable....After that change they were where they should have been for a long time.

SRMS *seem* strong right now because ECM makes a lot of other things seem so weak, not just LRMS and Streaks, and thats a fact.

What are you even talking about?

First LRMs aren't meant to be massive killers, only over time and with massive numbers. They are supposed to seem underpowered. Its the balancing effect of being able to hit something at the longest range, can't fire back at you, and most of all -isn't even in LOS-.

You aren't supposed to be able to take down an Atlas with just some Streak 2's. Atlas' at the gods of the battlefield, any 100 ton mech, especially one like an Atlas is is meant to be faced by another assualt or to be focused, preferably both. You aren't supposed to be able to take a light with a few streaks and be able to do anything other then distract an Atlas, beyond a lucky kill.

But the thing you said that is the most ignorant of all... "SRMS *seem* strong right now because ECM makes a lot of other things seem so weak"

Dude ECM only effects streaks and LRMs, so they shouldn't seem stronger then lasers or ballistics because an ECM can't make lasers or ballistics look weak, it only makes the things we are saying are OP'ed look weaker.

You obviously have no concept of the overal balanace of what is Battletech, and hows all the mutliple facets (mech tonnages, weapons, heat, space, etc, etc) all interplay with each other.