37 replies to this topic

[MaxllmuS]

Realy problem with ECM ATLAS have it. If ECM will be moved to light and medium only we can see em much more in the games and this add some balance.
Realy now then repair no problem i see only way to make medium more usefull give em ECM ability.

Light become scouts.Tag and maby some stealth armour\system in next patches.
Med will be support mech tag\narc\ecm etc.
Havy become damage dealers fast and good firepover.
Assaults will be slow moving not mobile tanks and death machines,field comand centres with command computers.

Edited by MaxllmuS, 26 December 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[Eddrick]

If one weight class can use ECM. Why can't them all?

That list forces weight classes into specific roles. The illusion of choise is still not choice.

The Stalker BattleMech loses all viability because it is forced into brawler, role, instead of sniper and missle boat.

[Zyllos]

ECM can not be balanced in it's current form.

It must be changed.

[Corvus Antaka]

for serious matches - ECM only. maybe 1-3 filler mechs, but ECM is the most important component.

[ICEFANG13]

I agreed that ECM would look nicer on some medium mechs, but first we have to fix ECM to be fair, and then maybe we can talk about what mechs need what.

[Chunkylad]

They could make ECM have 3 states, counter remains the same and removes one ECM, disrupt only effects enemies within the range of the ECM, and a defensive state that protects allies from being locked.

Atlas with ECM is pretty irritating, when you get a pack of 2 or 3, it renders streaks and LRMs entirely useless unless you have 3 counters running at the same time, which is highly unlikely. I can't tell how many 3-4 man premades I see where they all run the same mech with an ECM and LRMs/streaks become dead weight on the team. They could make the light/medium ECMs different from the assault version giving the assault purely defensive abilities and allowing lights/meds to have both offensive and defensive capabilities.

[Rocket2Uranus]

I don't think light mechs need ECM. They already have lag shield.

[Barghest Whelp]

I really feel you're avoiding the real problem. Certain mech just should not be able to wield ECM. The Cataphract is an excellent example. It performs far too well at it's designated roles, and adding ECM would just make it OP.

The Jenner is another good example: good firepower, great speed, adding ECMwould just mean that the Raven no longer has a viable role.

An Atlas carrying ECM works well to complement it's command role IMO. A Hunchback on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. It performs really well as a light hunter/brawler.

Another good point which somebody else mentioned is that ECM in it's current implementation is OP. I don't agree 100% with this, but the fact that ECM does what three modules are supposed to do according to the TT rules tells me that "this guy has a point".

Tl;dr: regardless of tonnage, certain mech's ought to be able to carry ECM.

[Rocket2Uranus]

Barghest Whelp, on 27 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I really feel you're avoiding the real problem. Certain mech just should not be able to wield ECM. The Cataphract is an excellent example. It performs far too well at it's designated roles, and adding ECM would just make it OP.

The Jenner is another good example: good firepower, great speed, adding ECMwould just mean that the Raven no longer has a viable role.

An Atlas carrying ECM works well to complement it's command role IMO. A Hunchback on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. It performs really well as a light hunter/brawler.

Another good point which somebody else mentioned is that ECM in it's current implementation is OP. I don't agree 100% with this, but the fact that ECM does what three modules are supposed to do according to the TT rules tells me that "this guy has a point".

Tl;dr: regardless of tonnage, certain mech's ought to be able to carry ECM.

I think.... Light mech should only have short range ECM. And as the ECM gets added to a bigger Mech it's range should be bigger.

I think all light mechs shouldn't be able to carry ECM. Lag shield is still in full effect.

[MasterBLB]

Well,before we start considering which one mech should have access to ECM first the device have to be implemented in a proper,not brokenly overpowered way.

[DocBach]

The problem with ECM is not the chassis it can be mounted to. The problem with ECM is its overpowered effect.


Pg. 134, BattleTech Total Warfare

An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a "bubble" around the carrying unit. The ECM's disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying ECM. Within its erffect radius, an ECM has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.
Active Probe: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice that its being jammed, however.
Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM but lose the cluster hits table bonus.
Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the cluster hits table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM "bubble." The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.
C3 and C3i Computer: ECM has the effect of "cutting off" any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is effectively shutoff. Only those C3 units able to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the ECM radius can access the network if the master unit that connects the lances of a company lies inside the ECM effect radius, the link between the lances is lost, though each lance's network functions normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).

TL:DR?


Problems with PGI's ECM:

"The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting systems" - this is the opposite effect in MWO. Our scanners are completely killed and we have no ability to target ECM shrouded 'Mechs.

"Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM but lose the cluster hits table bonus."
As it stands currently, without TAG, LRMs cannot lock on to enemies to be fired normally at targets inside the ECM "bubble."

"The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM."
Like the LRMs Narc in MWO requires a lock to fire - the ECM blocks it.

Nowhere in any of the descriptions in the rulesets does it say that ECM provides a stealth field that makes 'Mechs in the bubble untargetable by LRMs or Streak missiles.

If Narc was implemented as the rules state, and kept a target lockable even with LOS lost, ECM would be a valuable asset. If the ability to know you were in an ECM bubble was only granted to Beagle equipped units, you'd have a reason to bring Beagle. If target sharing was blocked for units inside or on the other side of an ECM bubble we'd have good reason to bring a counter. ECM could be still useful without an OP radar stealth mode if the other electronic warfare equipment was made useful.

[Kyrs]

I'm not gonna vote for something that is still unbalance, the current ecm implemented by PGI doesn't work. They only manage to switch for an "WIN button" to "I WIN unless you or your teammate are stupids button".

If you ignore your TT rules for ecm, then just give use counters that doesn't follow your TT rules. For a 1,5 tons items the "less is more" should be applied. Way to much effect, currently looks like 5 year old made a wish list of effect and daddy PGI didn't know when to put his feet down and say "NO, terrain and building should have a role in the tactics".

[Rocket2Uranus]

Kyrs, on 27 December 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I'm not gonna vote for something that is still unbalance, the current ecm implemented by PGI doesn't work. They only manage to switch for an "WIN button" to "I WIN unless you or your teammate are stupids button".

If you ignore your TT rules for ecm, then just give use counters that doesn't follow your TT rules. For a 1,5 tons items the "less is more" should be applied. Way to much effect, currently looks like 5 year old made a wish list of effect and daddy PGI didn't know when to put his feet down and say "NO, terrain and building should have a role in the tactics".

lol.

ECM is not OP.
It changed he battlefield in a way you just don't know how to counter.

But yeah, if light mechs have ECM it should be fraction of the power that ATLAS ECM is.
Nerf ECM for light mechs.

Edited by Rocket2Uranus, 27 December 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Ok can you give me a disadvantage for ECM? Why would I not want to bring it to a game?

[Kaptain]

ICEFANG13, on 27 December 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Ok can you give me a disadvantage for ECM? Why would I not want to bring it to a game?

It counters Narc, Tag, BAP and ART
Its stealth armor, ecm and null sig ALL IN ONE,
Generates 0 heat
Can be placed anywhere (on mechs that can mount it)
Does not use ammo

Soooo the only reason you wound not mount this OP ecm from the future is if you don't like the mechs that can mount it.

[Daggett]

ICEFANG13, on 27 December 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Ok can you give me a disadvantage for ECM? Why would I not want to bring it to a game?

Thats the point.
The best indication that something is too powerful is when all other options are clearly inferior.
And thats the case with ECM. For 1.5t and 2 crits it does everything without any real drawback.
BAP for example cost exactly the same but does nothing compared to ECM. To make it worse, ECM counters BAP.
An ECM-capable mech which does not use ECM is always worse than the build with ECM.
And ECM is currently mandatory in 8-Player premades.

These are all big signs for OPness.
When equipping a mech, each option must have a significant drawback compared to others (tonnage, nr. of crit-slots, heat, mounts, ect.).
If there is none (because the benefits clearly outweigh the drawbacks) and therefore the option is an auto-include, then it is clearly broken.

In my opinion ECM could be fine if it would no longer hide the enemies in the bubble and make them targetable again.
This null-signature functionallity is simply way to much and can easily wreck non-ecm users on it's own, especially in pug-games.

I can totally handle the streak/lrm nerf and like how it forces to either create more diversified builds and/or play smarter.
But the whole enemy team having stealth too by a simple 1,5t equipment is ridiculous...

Edited by Daggett, 27 December 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Klaus]

MaxllmuS, on 26 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Realy problem with ECM ATLAS have it. If ECM will be moved to light and medium only we can see em much more in the games and this add some balance.
Realy now then repair no problem i see only way to make medium more usefull give em ECM ability.

Light become scouts.Tag and maby some stealth armour\system in next patches.
Med will be support mech tag\narc\ecm etc.
Havy become damage dealers fast and good firepover.
Assaults will be slow moving not mobile tanks and death machines,field comand centres with command computers.

Did you fail school?

Rocket2Uranus, on 27 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I don't think light mechs need ECM. They already have lag shield.

Not this again.

Edited by Klaus, 27 December 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

I have no problem with current state of ECM or the mechs. It's the matchmaking that bugs me. Having a match with no ECM mech against two ECM Atlas and a Raven is basically lost unless they're complete morons. With Atlas I think there should be only one command unit per team.
'

[MaxllmuS]

Klaus

Nope we just dont lern english in school. So i make lots of mistakes trying to prove my point.
Хочешь расскажу по русски или по украински красиво и понятно? Но вряд ли ты знаешь русский так же как и украинский.

Edited by MaxllmuS, 27 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[StUffz]

Just delimit the ECM Mechslots/match and this will solve most problem.