261 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

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The crit system in both BT and MWO take a percentage per shot of that shot hitting one of the items mounted on the component that has been targeted. There is also a percentage chance that that shot can crit 1,2 or 3 times the amount of damage the weapon deals normally.

This makes weapons/armor survive a bit longer; usually substantially longer than that torso section will... because the damage to the internal structure is going to take out ALL the weapons/equipment in that section when it blows out.

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For example, the current Machine Gun does 0.04 damage per bullet. IF the Machine Gun crits, it has the potential of doing 0.04, 0.08 or 0.12 damage to an internal item. Obviously that's not a lot of damage. Hence the new system implemented allows me to add a multiplier to this damage model.

Unless you're going to hose down a section for 3-4 seconds... and by that time, you should have already blown it out if it had anything that mattered in it.

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What does that mean to you? After I've completed my first pass at multiplier numbers and after it goes through testing, you will notice that the Machine Gun will become a formidable weapon when used against a component that has no armor. Basically it will start to shred items that are mounted on the targeted component. The same will go for the Flamer.

This is a worthless effect. Even if MGs/Flamers destroy an item in a section without armor with every hit it won't make these weapons viable. By the time the armor in a given section is gone, that section and everything in it is going to be destroyed within 2-3 seconds.

Asking someone to devote 1-1.5t to the 'chance' of being able to strip weapons/equipment in the rare instance that there is a armor-less section with a useful item remaining vs. actually being able to do damage ALL the time... is pretty much an intelligence test that most people will pass... by not taking flamers/MGs.

Paul, here's how you fix the weapons:

MGs - just up the damage to 1-2 dps.
Flamer - The flamer should decrease the heat effeciency of the target's heat sinks for 5 seconds by 5-10% per flamer. If you have 10-20 flamers on target, then it will not dissipate heat. Otherwise, it will, but much more slowly.

Problem solved.

Insanity

[Bilbo]

HRR Insanity, on 14 January 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

....Unless you're going to hose down a section for 3-4 seconds... and by that time, you should have already blown it out if it had anything that mattered in it......

If you have to wait for heat to come down just after stripping the armor, the MGs could have a purpose as he describes them.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Paul's got an idea here to make MG/Flamers useful beyond their current non-useful position.

Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean it's not valid. I mean, frankly, this change would actually warrant me using build ideas that utilize MG's or Flamers as something of a "finisher" weapon, or something to use while cooling down on a hotter build.

There's plenty of options this brings up, is it the perfect solution? Far from it, but let's see where it goes before we knock it yeah?

[Indk]

I like PGI's idea more than yours.

[Bagheera]

I'm not the only one who'll be trying MGs (again) when this is implemented. Might as well see how it plays out in game before deciding.

Also, critique of the fix completely ignores team-work.

Assault/Heavy taking massive shots at the armor, partnered up with a 4MG CDA aiming for the open sections - off the top of my head.

Also interesting options for mechs that fit a big autocanon and have left over ballistic slots and not a lot of leftover weight.

In theory, the AC20/MG array combo could be wickedly brutal. Which brings me to my next point. Bilbo already pointed out heat. The other side is RoF. If you're starting at an enemies internals but all your weapons are on cooldown, the MGs give you a rapid crit maker option without having to wait for that Gauss/PPC or AC to cycle back up again.

Edited by Bagheera, 14 January 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[Dakkath]

It'd be nice to give them more range. I know this goes against TT rules, but in all reality, the MG should shoot farther than it does, but just less accurate the greater the range.

Allowing your mech to cool down while you use the MG's on a heavily damaged sections is a great idea. I like the new critical hit stuff. (just want more range on the gun).

[Bitslizer]

OP don't understand what Paul is talking about

#1) We already have the MWO critical system in place for quite a while now, its working fine for "most weapons". If you are complaining then you are complaining the current crit system?

#2) Paul is talking about buffing MG/Flamer via a additional tweakable multipler for critical hits
ie instead of doing 0.04 for 1 crit hit, 0.08 for 2 crit hit or 0.12 for 3 crit hit, there will be an additional "tweakable" multiplier that can make crit hit deal (wild arse guess examples) 4, 8, or 12 damages via a 100x multiplier.

What #2 mean is in effect make the MG/Flamer have the unqiue ability to "crit seek" like the SRM/LBX did in TT.

The multiplier Paul will be tweaking to balance how fast it will shred internal vs the utility of MG/Flamer

I assume this multiplier can be applied to all weapon, but probably useful for SRM and LBX as well as those were the traditional crit seeking weapon in TT

Edited by Bitslizer, 14 January 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

Eh, to be fair I've survived quite a while in a 'mech with an open torso section, seeing things in said torso section slowly get picked off.

Not disagreeing, necessarily; I have no idea how to make the MG "useful" without making 4 or more of them "obscenely overpowered"

[GODzillaGSPB]

I'd say it's still viable for those mechs or those hardpoints that are limited by the overall tonnage and role of that mech.

Let me give you a few examples:

• The Hunchback 4G with it's three ballistic slots in the RT can now mount two MGs and they could actually do something.
  
• The Raven with it's two ballistic slots and usually no use for them due to low tonnage.
  
• The Catapult with the two ballistic slots can now play its role and mount some MGs. It is not limited to the "Gaussapult".

I'm not saying it is ideal, but it adds a bit of variety to the game.

[rgreat]

As long as this go WITH BIG damage buff, its ok.

Edited by rgreat, 14 January 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Irvine]

This "new" system will make the spider more viable because it runs mgs&flamers

[Tasorin]

MG's and Flamers will still be gimmick weapons with this PGI fix. It won't change the fact that people will stack them for the lolz factor or as a leftover due to extra tonnage in order to have an extra item in the slots when the crit roll happens.

[Team Leader]

They should let you just mount multiple MGs in a single ballistic point, ala MG array, and increase the damage so a machine gun becomes a viable weapon, as good as a small laser. So you will be able to get maybe 6 MGs in the hunchbacks side torso and actually do work.

Edited by Team Leader, 14 January 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Bitslizer]

rgreat, on 14 January 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

As long as this go WITH BIG damage buff, its ok.

its not general damage buff, its big damage buff when you land a critical hit only.

FYI if MWO follow TT, there's a 41.67% chance of landing 1 or more critical hit on any internal hits

however unlike TT, MWO components have HP and the HP must be reduce to 0 via critical hit before the component is destroy

[Rippthrough]

Waste of time, may as well stick an extra heatsink on and take the armour out a bit faster with useful weapons. A mech usually dies seconds after being cored anyway, or it runs away.

Edited by Rippthrough, 14 January 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Rippthrough, on 14 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Waste of time, may as well stick an extra heatsink on and take the armour out a bit faster with useful weapons. A mech usually dies seconds after being cored anyway, or it runs away.

Personally I feel you're completely underestimating the ability's this will bring to the table in the form of teamwork.

Or maybe you're right, maybe what we need is for this game to once again, devlove into PPC-Gauss- poptart warrior: online.

[Novawrecker]

HRR Insanity, on 14 January 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

MGs - just up the damage to 1-2 dps.

Terrible idea. What's to stop mechs that mount 4 ballistics to carry your version of the MG? That would mean that for 2 mere tons, you have someone shooting your for 4-8 DPS for 0 heat ....

very, VERY bad idea.

[stjobe]

I argued against this change in this thread. At length. From several points of view.

Basically, there's a couple of problems with a crit multiplier:
1. The MG is still useless for the first two-thirds to three-quarters of a match. Why not take a weapon that's useful for the whole match instead? (Trick question; you have ballistic hardpoints and the next weapon up weighs six tons without ammo).
2. Unless you make that multiplier something on the order of 20 times the current damage, it won't be enough to "shred items". 20 times the current damage is still only 0.8 damage per bullet, or 8 damage per second. If everything crits, which isn't normally the case.

In fact, this is the case with 20 times normal crit damage (1 second of firing):
5.8 non-crits for 0 damage
2.5 single crits for 2 damage
1.4 double crits for 2.24 damage
0.3 triple crits for 0.72 damage

Grand total: 4.96 damage - or slightly less than a medium laser hit.

Is that what one calls "shredding items"? Doing medium laser type of damage?

No, PGI. When you buff the MG, please do it properly.

Edited by stjobe, 14 January 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[Heffay]

I wish we could crit actuators. Imagine a dragon with a hip actuator broken in one direction and the shoulder in another.

[Galaxy Drifter]

GODzillaGSPB, on 14 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I'd say it's still viable for those mechs or those hardpoints that are limited by the overall tonnage and role of that mech.

Let me give you a few examples:

• The Hunchback 4G with it's three ballistic slots in the RT can now mount two MGs and they could actually do something.
  
• The Raven with it's two ballistic slots and usually no use for them due to low tonnage.
  
• The Catapult with the two ballistic slots can now play its role and mount some MGs. It is not limited to the "Gaussapult".

I'm not saying it is ideal, but it adds a bit of variety to the game.

For a fun build, I plan on trying a Cicada 3C with 1xERPPC and 4xMG's