13 replies to this topic

[Creepy]

Just another one of my random musings
I'm sure this would be something farther down the road, if ever worked in
A "use/action" key that's condition sensitive can be used for the following (among other things):

- Punching an enemy mech. I'm sure a lot of us would love to punch the other guy
- Pressing and holding with an empty hand maybe can initiate a grab? Breaking free could be a problem, but what if the other player can initiate a use/action key as a break away response? (This aspect needs a little more baking -especially when one considers possible knock down elements. As usual, simplicity is safer..)
- Pick up an object. To bash with, or to carry (hand actuator required) -Press and hold will drop, or certain use conditions will also cause a drop
- Interface with a terminal (elevator/lift controls -I have a map idea that makes use of this but that's another story. There are, of course, other elements. Maybe hacking/data retrieval which can be sped up (or only usable with) ECM)

[Frater Sender]

Would you sacrifice your large laser or gauss for knocking someone on his mech? This is a singelaction i think, only looking what happens when you do this. The weapon would be useless because all the cables and ammunition supplies disconnected or demolished.
Finally, you want to keep your weapon in all future games and it was just meaningless work to incorporate this possibility.

[Rhymetard]

Actually, in the TT (tabletop) games melee attacks were the be-all-and-end-all of a MechWarrior's tactics.. theoretically the idea is do-able, and generally this would be a fair answer to swarm tactics used by lights against heavy/assault mechs. An element of sudden death would be quite an equalizer in mwo as it was in the TT game. The catch is the number of buttons involved, consider a previous post of mine for use in conjunction with this idea (http://mwomercs.com/...game-mechanics/). Without doubt, a one button melee is an "I win" button for assault mechs.

[Frater Sender]

You might have right but i dont like mechwarrior streetfighter. This would be the moment i quit.

[Rhymetard]

I can certainly see the point you make, an atlas that can charge around swiping every other mech off the field like m. bison is definitely a nightmare scenario. I would still contend however that there's a missing element of sudden death and that players have an impunity with which to ignore certain cultural elements in the genre, like "right of way". Two obvious problems are firstly the tendency in pilots to charge straight at larger enemies, typically remaining base to base indefinitely. More obviously light mech pilots are often tempted to fight heavier mechs one-on-one at game start, while that is often quite dramatic and effective it detracts from the emphasis on team play that the game requires, often producing a herd mentality. Neither of which problems will go away of their own accord as there is no contrasting ability in heavier mechs to compare to the lighter mech's superior mobility.

[Frater Sender]

The "speed and lagshielddomination" will end with the lagproblem.
When everybody has an normal chance to hit a light with lasers they
will not engage as often as they do at the moment.
As long as they see the high ping of a single bigger mech they will
ra---pe him. If they know or belive he can fight back bad with lasers it
will stop without any draw on the balancescrew.
Let us remember: Lasers working with lightspeed, that means when i shoot
a target the beam reaches it in nearby zero time.
I am a central european and i have to shoot sometimes 2 cm in front of a mech
for a hit. This is in distance by 600m, when they close in and run around me i need
to aim at the other side of the circle to hit em. When i think on australians and asians
they are in worse conditions than i am.
This are basical things, it is not to excuse with: Its a beta!

So, the gameball hit again the same.....

[Creepy]

Quote

Without doubt, a one button melee is an "I win" button for assault mechs.

There are still elements of execution and result that could change that. Not necessarily acrobatics and such, mind, but things such as the swing characteristics (speed, area, etc), and the damage (to both mechs involved.)

Quote

Would you sacrifice your large laser or gauss for knocking someone on his mech?

That's conditional. If I stand to come out on top, yes. I don't really use gauss or large lasers, so maybe it's easier for me to say so.

Quote

mechwarrior streetfighter.

Well, I don't think it'll be that bad but we all get a few crazies out there.

[Rhymetard]

Frater Interitum, on 15 January 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

The "speed and lagshielddomination" will end with the lagproblem.

I was actually referring to the problem of balance at a strategic level, or lack there of. Lag is one thing, balance is something else. Technical issues would need to be addressed at the user end. Your answer just doesn't go the distance.

Frater Interitum, on 15 January 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

When everybody has an normal chance to hit a light with lasers they
will not engage as often as they do at the moment.

You haven't considered the scenario in all of it's implications. The point being made is that the light mech pilot's advantage can only be resolved by forcing them away from heavier mechs. It's theoretically possible that a light mech need not enter into a heavy mech's firing arch at any point on account of their superior mobility.

Edited by Rhymetard, 16 January 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Frater Sender]

Rhymetard, on 16 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I was actually referring to the problem of balance at a strategic level, or lack there of. Lag is one thing, balance is something else. Technical issues would need to be addressed at the user end. Your answer just doesn't go the distance.

Hm, i see no balance problem. I can hit with all weapons when my oponent has not too much different ping. The problem is the lag! First the PUG-Selection has to find users with more even ping. As example: My biggest problem are americans and canadians with a ping of 25 to 55 or asians and australians with a ping up over 200. The server needs to slow down the faster.
This would mean that the amis and i need to be slowed down to the level of the asians. I know this example is a litte hard, but i said that the selection must work bether, so the differences aren´t so big.

Rhymetard, on 16 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

You haven't considered the scenario in all of it's implications. The point being made is that the light mech pilot's advantage can only be resolved by forcing them away from heavier mechs. It's theoretically possible that a light mech need not enter into a heavy mech's firing arch at any point on account of their superior mobility.

But they are intentionally moving in my firing range because i can´t hit them without any luck. If it works, do they know after a look into the statustable, where they can read the ping. So what is your suggest? Do i need an american friend in a Light? Moment....let me cry.... hahahahahahahaha... damn wrong button...
You presupposes a theoretically balance which doesn´t exist. So we can not talk about it that way as it would exist. Unfortunately i have to assume you that you do not understand my problem because you do not have it.

Edited by Frater Interitum, 22 January 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[Rhymetard]

I definitely hear what you're saying. In my opinion balance begins with sanity, there's a procedural flaw in the concept of light vs. heavy at this point. As for the existence of balance or not that's a metaphysical argument and way off topic.

It's quite a simple point i'm making, and I honestly believe that this works in our favour.

According to cannon, for a light mech to initiate a melee attack on say a heavy or assault mech would be near suicide. The light would take an amount of damage such that they would suffer a greater degree of damage than was inflicted on the heavy/assault mech by said melee attack. Conversely, according to those same cannon rules (which admittedly were optional) a heavier mechs potential in melee would nullify the current use of "Kenshin" style flanking strategies and relegate light mechs (for the most part) to the scouting/harassing roles that they should rightly have.

Perhaps not balance in the immediate sense that you describe, but consider the imbalance between playstyles with light vs. heavy. According to my argument the problem you are having is in the misappropriated use of light mechs whereby the lighter mech is fundamentally more powerful on account of it having an exceeding capability to outmanoeuvre.

I agree with your principles, but I deplore the loss of gameplay quality when light mech pilots are encouraged toward this sort of "one up-manship". I think it's past concern as to how the problem might be solved, "balance", "depth", "strategic limitations" etc. etc.

[Frater Sender]

I am with you Rhymetard.
I fear, because of the cirumstances of the small maps and spasmodic attempts to give scouts-role regardless any sence, the scout have got the wrong role. He changed from a tactical far spoter to an shortrangekiller with abnormal armor and weaponarsenal in company with electronic devices that would had blocked all further loadout for weapons. (ECM in MWO are in battletech 3 devices or needs bigger devices wich would not fit in a scout!!!)
Additional is spotted some irregular less damage when someone hit the scouts first time. Normal the leg had to be clipped but the armor turns only yellow. (he stood on a place without moving.. i know what i write, because i play this game for a while...) The next shoot finished it but thats no fair thing because when i get shoots in my back i got always the whole damage and you know how quick this is finishing a mech.
It's just one joke, of many, in this game.
Why dont have a assault which runs 140km/h full ecm and armings like a stalker and the armor from an atlas?
It would make all other mechs suck!......so why do any get the idea to try something like this with a scout?
Dear Devs: You made small maps so live with that. At small maps nobody needs a scout. Please dont create circumstances like your ECM that we need a scout to look out of our cockpit.
Finally, everyone is project other contents into the battletech rules.
Anyway, I do not think that our discussion leads to something, because we cannot change any of it.

Edited by Frater Interitum, 25 January 2013 - 02:20 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

What happens if my "useaction" key can't decide whether I want to give the opposing 'mech a sexy massage, kick it, or shut down all the garbage smashers on the detention level? Will I be consigned to a radial action menu? Those things are damned inconvenient.

[Rhymetard]

The idea works more fluidly in conjunction with the idea from my previous thread, hyperlinked above in my second post here. An important part of balancing i.m.o. is to have failsafes that prevent noob behaviour, such as walking around in circles and swinging punches, in this case.

Previously I talked about using a throttle for the mech's gyroscope to affect the machine's mobility, allowing for bursts of rapid movement and more precise jumpjet usage.

Speculating, the kind of melee attack would be influenced directly by the mech's balance. Light mechs like the commando could tackle a heavier mech using their momentum to produce an effect. As such rapid gyro acceleration would produce a death-or-glory outcome even comparing a seriously damaged heavy to an undamaged light and similarly the light mech is guaranteed to lose it's arm punching a heavy. I remember from a battletech comic two from a lance of commandoes both attempted death or glory attacks on a heavy mech, the first of which commandos broke almost in two at the waist.

Conversely, a heavy mech attacking an encircling light, or worse charging a light, is going to introduce a sort of highway law to the field that will have a lot of pilots rethinking their love of "motorbikes". Ever get stuck behind a truck out on the highway? Because no truck ever got stuck behind you .

As for falling over etc. Heavier mechs would have a wider, lower centre of gravity meaning that they would stumble one or two paces and only fall in the case of inconvenient terrain. On a scientific note the materials that mechs are constructed from are capable of producing bipedal locomotion at 40 meters/100 tonnes.. falling damage is a minor issue, their locomotion would produce greater strain than a fall from a 40m height (remember the thing about "giant" humans and the strain on their skeleton in popular science?). A little bit more canon, mechs actually cause earthquakes in large deployments - little real falling damage, only earthquakes .

Edited by Rhymetard, 26 January 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Frater Sender]

Falling damage is hypothetical anyway when you consider that each Battlemech, at each step, in reality would sink into the ground. Maybe not on rocks but on any other ground. To run is not to be thought. Scientific justifications are thus omitted. So you can adjust something or not, it is anyway a fantasy value.