224 replies to this topic

[Mxxpower]

Yoseful Mallad, on 16 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

you are talking pug world... im talking 8 man world. The reason so many teams are still playing in pug games is because there is still a great mix of mechs and players in pugs. With no mech weight cap limit in 8 man games right now, most games are lopsided with it either being almost internally assaults or lights rushing you. That gets boring real quick. Add to the mix that most of those Assaults and or light heavy teams are running almost exclusively ECM pure teams. Its just not fun in the 8 man world right now lol

Um....Adapt and overcome? Isn't that what you guys wanted? A challenging experience?

Nope.. So you split your 8 man ECM team into 2- 4 man ECM teams and hit the pugs.

But that's not lopsided...Nope...Not at all

[GuardDogg]

Lights are the assults while Med, Heavys, assualts scout the battlefield.

Edited by VeeDog, 16 January 2013 - 10:42 PM.

[Kousagi]

der langsamere, on 16 January 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

yes exactly the problem
one rule from an item that doesnt get invented for two years in the timeline.

Here, maybe we should take one rule and add it to the PPC; Field inhibitors can be turned off.
Or Capacitors (so we can fire double powered PPC shots)
Or Hot loaded LRMs (thats just one rule we could add)

"just one rule" lol you "just dont want your OP toy taken away"

Sure, they can totally remove that one rule, when LRM's get their damage dropped back to 1 per missile, lose the ability to lock on and streaks get their damage dropped back to 2 per missile, target more then just the torso section, and have to relock after every time they fire. If you want to use TT as a argument, then nothing should be left out. Oh, and we can go on and on about other things too... fact is, TT was used as a base line, They are balancing things and changing as needed cause turn based does not always translate to real time.

ECM itself in MWO is not OP, its streaks/LRM's that are, ECM is just what allows/deny's the use of them. So Who ever has the most ECM gets to use the OP weapons.... Simple.

Edited by Kousagi, 16 January 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

Mxxpower, on 16 January 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Um....Adapt and overcome? Isn't that what you guys wanted? A challenging experience?

Nope.. So you split your 8 man ECM team into 2- 4 man ECM teams and hit the pugs.

But that's not lopsided...Nope...Not at all

who is you guys? Do you really think i would have started this thread if my team was running 2 4 man Raven teams in pug games? To be honest... my unit does not like what ECM has done to the game as we know it now and we only have 2 guys inour whole unit that run the 3L with ECM. And that is only as it has become a must (like I said) in my prior posts to be somewhat competitive as of right now. When we do jump into pug game, we run a wide mix of mech as that is what we like to do. We try to do the same in 8 man games as well but more times than not, when you run into nothing but ECM heavy 8 mans and you cant match it... most of the time, you are going to get rolled over.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Sure, they can totally remove that one rule, when LRM's get their damage dropped back to 1 per missile, lose the ability to lock on and streaks get their damage dropped back to 2 per missile, target more then just the torso section, and have to relock after every time they fire. If you want to use TT as a argument, then nothing should be left out. Oh, and we can go on and on about other things too... fact is, TT was used as a base line, They are balancing things and changing as needed cause turn based does not always translate to real time.

ECM itself in MWO is not OP, its streaks/LRM's that are, ECM is just what allows/deny's the use of them. So Who ever has the most ECM gets to use the OP weapons.... Simple.

Ive said it pretty much since that first major nerf or LRMs back in August. People would rather come here to PGI and scream and cry and moan and ***** to get a weapon system nerfed than to learn to counter it in game. Because as we know, pre ECM there was NO WAY WHATSOEVER to counter LRMs.

Right Kousagi?

[Mxxpower]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Sure, they can totally remove that one rule, when LRM's get their damage dropped back to 1 per missile, lose the ability to lock on and streaks get their damage dropped back to 2 per missile, target more then just the torso section, and have to relock after every time they fire. If you want to use TT as a argument, then nothing should be left out. Oh, and we can go on and on about other things too... fact is, TT was used as a base line, They are balancing things and changing as needed cause turn based does not always translate to real time.

ECM itself in MWO is not OP, its streaks/LRM's that are, ECM is just what allows/deny's the use of them. So Who ever has the most ECM gets to use the OP weapons.... Simple.

The problem is, there is no reason to ever run anything without ECM. The Problem is, trial mechs do not have access to ECM.

ECM in a pug, no problem

4xECM on grouped, on TS, in a pug is a problem.

[Kousagi]

der langsamere, on 16 January 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

well at least you finally admit it

Admit that SSRM's and LRM's are OP? Sure, ECM is just a allow/deny mechanic, itself is not OP, so it does not need to be nerfed. You have to fix the problem, which is SSRM/LRM's. So if they are nerfed, then ECM will have less effect. Also in terms of the raven, once netcode is fixed, then they will not be much of a bother, since that is the main reason they stay alive.

[Valaska]

As a person who didn't use Streaks or LRM's terribly much, no they weren't OP. The SRM's did in fact spread their damage before ECM, and LRM's were dropped to a reasonable damage (1.7) which had a SHARP decline in the amount of LRM boats, it was back to when they were mildly effective.

ECM wasn't to fix Streaks or LRM's, they'd already been worked out more or less and their popularity took a massive drop. This point its not "balance", ECM is massively over powered on its own, when 8 man organized teams run nothing but things with ECM on it, there's an effing problem. When one tool can invalidate 2 viable forms of play we already had counters to, its a problem. When the only way to "adapt and overcome" is to limit your adaptability, and just run with the herd and use an ECM enabled mech, it's a problem.

MechWarrior IS about adapting, not conforming to a standard just to win. This game has become less about what true fans loved the series for with this incarnation of ECM, Table Top or not it doesn't belong in the game as is currently and a HUGE portion of this community agrees.

PGI is only going to hurt themselves by inaction on this issue, and they are outright going to permanently loose player base due to the lack of communication! The lack of Communication in this matter is actually the more serious of the two.


Also, if you really think netcode is why ravens are so survivable, that's a freaking joke, its the ECM. No other light, including the Jenner, survives as long as they do now.

Edited by Valaska, 16 January 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Admit that SSRM's and LRM's are OP? Sure, ECM is just a allow/deny mechanic, itself is not OP, so it does not need to be nerfed. You have to fix the problem, which is SSRM/LRM's. So if they are nerfed, then ECM will have less effect. Also in terms of the raven, once netcode is fixed, then they will not be much of a bother, since that is the main reason they stay alive.

I think Ill repeat my question as you seem to have ignored it the first try

Ive said it pretty much since that first major nerf or LRMs back in August. People would rather come here to PGI and scream and cry and moan and ***** to get a weapon system nerfed than to learn to counter it in game. Because as we know, pre ECM there was NO WAY WHATSOEVER to counter LRMs.

Right Kousagi?

[TheFlayedman]

Me too I use 2x srm4 instead. Not as effective but alot more satisfing when I make a good shot with them.

[Joe Mallad]

the other ability that ECM has right now is its ability to hide the mechs signature until it is within a few hundred meters of you. Standard ECM does not hide the users signature... it just does not allow the enemy to detect what type of mech is out there. In the TT rules, if you have ECM equiped... you still give off a detectable signature. The enemy just can not get a loadout or mech type reading on you. That is why ECM in TT allows for the use of giving off additional ghost signatures so the enemy does not know which signature out there is real or not. The ability that ECM has in this game to completely hide your mech from radar until you are within a few hundred meters or can be physically spotted is the ability of Null Sig... which is also not in the game yet.

[Mxxpower]

Yoseful Mallad, on 16 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

who is you guys? Do you really think i would have started this thread if my team was running 2 4 man Raven teams in pug games? To be honest... my unit does not like what ECM has done to the game as we know it now and we only have 2 guys inour whole unit that run the 3L with ECM. And that is only as it has become a must (like I said) in my prior posts to be somewhat competitive as of right now. When we do jump into pug game, we run a wide mix of mech as that is what we like to do. We try to do the same in 8 man games as well but more times than not, when you run into nothing but ECM heavy 8 mans and you cant match it... most of the time, you are going to get rolled over.

I wasn't calling you out, your comment was an excuse as to why you don't play 8 mans, and I get it.

All I was trying to say, is as a new player in a pug, facing teams that are good enough to do 8's but for whatever reason don't...really don't have a chance, and it's faceroll city for you.

I play pugs when I play because the group system is and has been borked for so long that I feel "dirty" when I do. If I needed cbills I might get on and faceroll, but I find it more enjoyable to have a somewhat even match.

What we have now is not even, not even close. Oddly, primetime USA is actually easier than late night in Euro prime from my experience.

Point is, a 4 man group on TS doesn't really need ECM, they could probably win in trial mechs.

[Kousagi]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 January 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I think Ill repeat my question as you seem to have ignored it the first try

Ive said it pretty much since that first major nerf or LRMs back in August. People would rather come here to PGI and scream and cry and moan and ***** to get a weapon system nerfed than to learn to counter it in game. Because as we know, pre ECM there was NO WAY WHATSOEVER to counter LRMs.

Right Kousagi?

Didn't ignore it, you posted it right before I posted, so i was busy typing... but let me guess, your going to say the counter is cover right? .... how did I know... you know what cover also counters? Everything in the game.... Now, please do tell me how do you counter LRM's when they are fired from 350m away while you are engaged with another mech, and if you sit still for even 1 sec you will get your cockpit shot out. We can even extend that range to say 500-600 meters, while you are engaging another mech, attempting to stop in cover = you die... so How do you counter it?

[Joe Mallad]

Mxxpower, on 16 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

I wasn't calling you out, your comment was an excuse as to why you don't play 8 mans, and I get it.

All I was trying to say, is as a new player in a pug, facing teams that are good enough to do 8's but for whatever reason don't...really don't have a chance, and it's faceroll city for you.

I play pugs when I play because the group system is and has been borked for so long that I feel "dirty" when I do. If I needed cbills I might get on and faceroll, but I find it more enjoyable to have a somewhat even match.

What we have now is not even, not even close. Oddly, primetime USA is actually easier than late night in Euro prime from my experience.

Point is, a 4 man group on TS doesn't really need ECM, they could probably win in trial mechs.

ok... i got you now. Sorry... i misunderstood you. And i agree with you 100%

[Solis Obscuri]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

The only thing the guardian gained that it does not have in TT is the one rule from the angel ECM in terms of blocking streaks. So please do not talk about TT as a reason for a ECM change. The TT ECM was used as a base line, and really it was improved on, as in TT a ECM is pretty hard to detect with radar, and the only good way to see them is with your pilots eye balls.

Though on TT visual detection allowed for targeting, missile lock, indirect fire spotting, and allowed the other 'mechs in your unit to have knowledge of the enemy position, numbers, and force composition.

And going inside the ECM umbrella didn't cut you off from your unit or prevent missile locks.

[Raidyr]

I echoed this sentiment just yesterday to the folks I was playing with. I am utterly sick and tired of fighting warping, unlockable light mechs that drive around too fast for the netcode to handle. Adding insult to injury, it seems to have a problem with the animations when moving too fast and becomes a jerking mess.

Without even going into the balance problems of the 3L variant in particular I am just literally tired of seeing them and fighting them constantly. They all have the same builds, and they all play completely the same. I'm at the end of the line as a non-Raven light mech driver, and since those are the only mechs I currently enjoy playing I'm currently at the end of the line of this game.

[Kousagi]

Yoseful Mallad, on 16 January 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

the other ability that ECM has right now is its ability to hide the mechs signature until it is within a few hundred meters of you. Standard ECM does not hide the users signature... it just does not allow the enemy to detect what type of mech is out there. In the TT rules, if you have ECM equiped... you still give off a detectable signature. The enemy just can not get a loadout or mech type reading on you. That is why ECM in TT allows for the use of giving off additional ghost signatures so the enemy does not know which signature out there is real or not. The ability that ECM has in this game to completely hide your mech from radar until you are within a few hundred meters or can be physically spotted is the ability of Null Sig... which is also not in the game yet.

You my friend are wrong. Double blind rules in the maxuim tech rule book has the whole sensor play. ECM Does hide mechs from radar. in fact its so good that normal mech sensors only have a chance to see a ECM equipped mech at short range ( 240 meters or 8 hexs ). To see a ECM mech with normal sensors you have to roll a 2 or 3 out of a 2d6... If they have a nullsig or angel then you have to roll a 2. Then If your mech was blocked by ECM ( failed to detect anything ), you still had zero clue where it was, the only thing the GM can say is, "you were jammed by ECM".

@ Solis Obscuri, Yes TT visual was one of the only ways to see a ECM mech with any reliability. This how ever is where things get fuzzy in the rules vs canon. Since rules kinda break canon stuff some, or they just didn't care to go over how every single weapon in the game reacts in this situation, so its just a blanket rule. Though Yes, going inside the ECM umbrella did cut off your mechs C3, and if it was a angel it stopped the streak part of SSRM, LRM's don't lock on in TT, so does not matter.

Edited by Kousagi, 16 January 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[Mxxpower]

Sadly, the only sollution to the ECM raven problem is to use them. I am certain if everyone not in a trial mech was driving an ECM raven or atlas, it would get a balance pass.

Personally, i think the weight should be increased to at least 3 tons, so the lights would have to sacrifice some firepower to scout with impunity.

[Valaska]

Max Tech was never considered tournament tech.

Also you seem to be forgetting that this isn't table top, and this project will die off if it doesn't bring in new people, or retain vets. Currently its doing neither at an astonishing rate, from my own experience anyways as I've seen nothing but tons of friends completely leave this game. I've introduced a few people to this game that are AVID gamers, but they don't get the whole... Babababum! Not being able to target **** or use their missiles aspect of the game.

Edited by Valaska, 16 January 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

You my friend are wrong. Double blind rules in the maxuim tech rule book has the whole sensor play. ECM Does hide mechs from radar. in fact its so good that normal mech sensors only have a chance to see a ECM equipped mech at short range ( 240 meters or 8 hexs ). To see a ECM mech with normal sensors you have to roll a 2 or 3 out of a 2d6... If they have a nullsig or angel then you have to roll a 2. Then If your mech was blocked by ECM ( failed to detect anything ), you still had zero clue where it was, the only thing the GM can say is, "you were jammed by ECM".

@ Solis Obscuri, Yes TT visual was one of the only ways to see a ECM mech with any reliability. This how ever is where things get fuzzy in the rules vs canon. Since rules kinda break canon stuff some, or they just didn't care to go over how every single weapon in the game reacts in this situation, so its just a blanket rule. Though Yes, going inside the ECM umbrella did cut off your mechs C3, and if it was a angel it stopped the streak part of SSRM, LRM's don't lock on in TT, so does not matter.

well if they are basing their ECM off of Max Tech... then they need to rethink what they are putting in the game. Most of the Max Tech stuff was never tournament tech as it was too over powered lol As is here lol

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 16 January 2013 - 11:23 PM.