224 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Yes, Max tech is level 3 rules, my only reason for bring up TT, is cause people keep saying that ECM does not work like TT, which is a lie. Since the rules for it do exist. Yes they were optional rules, but does not mean they cant be in a tournament. If the tournament wants the rules to be in, it could very well have them. Also If the tournament allowed it, and all players in the match consented to it, they could use optional rules on that map a tournament that didn't have any.

Edited by Kousagi, 16 January 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

There is another way that the speed of all mechs causing lag and other issues can be handled. Dont allow any mech to go any faster than its original engine would allow for. Take the ability to swap out engines from the game lol. If your mech comes standard to move 81 KPH... than thats the fastest it can go. If its 118kph... thats it, you can not upgrade to go anything over that. Sure it will not fly now that everyone is used to the freedom of switching out engines but if from the very start it was set that your starting engine was not removable... I think more mech would find roles in the game according to their true speeds.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 16 January 2013 - 11:30 PM.

[Valaska]

Actually its funny now that I think back on it, of all the things people who played MaxTech in house rules, ECM was usually one of the things agreed not to be in the match! That and double blind was NEVER played with I never saw it once to be honest so I didn't even know the full scope of what it meant!

The most popular things were terrain and structures, and most of the weapons... In fact I don't remember ECM doing a few of the things you are saying, I remember that as Null Signature and then Double Blind! That or stealth armor.

[MustrumRidcully]

Solis Obscuri, on 16 January 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

I see more 64-SRM Cats than ever, and SSRMs are as generally prevalent as they were before the introduction of ECM (though 12 SSRM CPLT-A1s are much more rare). LRM boats are still relatively common, though players are more likely to carry supplemental weapon systems now (they should've in the first place IMO).

As for players getting better, I think that having the right sort of tools can help encourage behavior - if you provide things that facilitate teamwork, players will fall into it more easily. The default map/sensor-sharing tools of MWO impressed me from the stat, as they provided a simple and useful display of information that helped players work together without the use of voice-coms or much advance planning. The soft-launch of C3 seems much less successful, and generally underutilized, though I have some hop that a lobby system might help this along in future.

By contrast, ECM is a very easy to use passive device that effectively nullifies the opposing team's Information Warfare capacity. It confers an impressive set of advantages to the user - immunity to most SRM and LRM fire, immunity to sensor detection at >200m, and cutting off enemy units from team communication at <180m while confusing their teammates about friend-or-foe identification. On the level of an organized team, it facilities mass troop movements with minimal need for tactical use of terrain as cover and with little risk of detection or harassment by scouts and fire support units. In effect, ECM rewards sloppy play while challenging the opposing team to function at a higher level of play and tactical cohesion without the benefits of the basic game features designed to facilitate those behaviors. And while I think it's fundamentally bad design to incorporate game items that remove access to basic game features from other players, this is compounded by the paucity of in-game counters to ECM; TAG has a very limited capacity to counter ECM sensor disruption, and ECM run in ECCM mode can disrupt it at close range. That's all.

If a variety of non-equipment based counters (such as maybe alternate sensor modes etc. that could be used to provide detection/targeting abilities against ECM-cloaked units), or if ECM jamming required some degree of active involvement by the user along with a much narrower field of focus, the unit would be less imbalanced. But as it stands, it's very poorly balanced against other game equipment, and it doesn't so much add to as subtract from tactical depth and gameplay features, and to boot it isn't really teaching much of anything to the people using it, or those playing against it - besides perhaps that ECM is really strong and they should get on of the five 'mechs that can equip it.

This is a very good analysis. Would read again.

Quote

But "boat" configurations don't have anything to do with team play per se; they represent a degree of specialization that is often massively advantageous in a particular situation, in some cases quite powerful, and in most cases quite simplistic to use (fewer groups of weapons to keep track of, fewer lead distances etc. to deal with.) Boats can give a solo PUGger a leg up, but they're probably strongest in groups, where teammates can compensate for one-another's weaknesses. In the end I wouldn't say they matter either way, but since they represent a degree of specialization that can be advantageous when applied strategically, I would say they encourage teamwork to a small degree.
Gesundheit.

Not to forget - boating a weapon that is pretty good for its weight (which weapons like Streaks, SRm6s and Medium Lasers) are allows you to get the most of the weapon's advantage.
(And this is also a chance for "non-boats" - if you can't just boat one type of weaon, you can mix the two or three good weaopn types you have access to. Like a 4ML/4SRM6 Stalker 3F).

[anonymous175]

[Joe Mallad]

lets remember guys... we are all here debating this as friendly individuals. Lets not let this get into bashing or name calling. I would like to keep debating about this and that with ECM but be civil about it lol

[Kousagi]

der langsamere, on 16 January 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Yeah I didnt think you played pre ECM. It was called AMS. and "grouping up"
Yes, being in a group in a so-called "team game"
and that thing people call "learning to play"
and yes, getting in cover lol. all part and parcel to learning to play rather than having an on/off OP button

lol you quote TT when it suits you but "So please do not talk about TT as a reason" but only when it benefits you in the argument

I did play Pre-ECM, and if you think AMS was a great counter to LRM boats, then I kinda feel bad for ya. Now sure, back when LRM's didn't hit very hard, it was not bad, but its not like it stopped the rain from happening when people worked as a team and used 2-3 boats on one target...

And no, my argument has nothing to do with TT. You were using TT as a reason for change to ECM. I have never used TT as a reason for change or not to change. I am simply pointing out the rules in TT people said did not exist.

[Valaska]

That there are some attractive CGI eyes, I don't get there reference but I approve of this post.

Also 1.7 dmg cut them down decently, as well as the spread. Sure if I got caught in the open LRM's would ****** to hell, or I would outrun them (Very fast dragon lol) sometimes to get back into cover...

But if I take cover, is that going to take away an enemies ECM? If I out pilot/out maneuver or even aim an ECM atlas, is that going to give me the paper doll to see if he was damaged beforehand? If I, and my team, maneuver and bide our way around the map to flank an entire grouped ECM Atlas and Raven unit that stands in one place, is that going to take away their ECM advantage?? Do I get counter ECM chits for actually piloting something that is interesting and different in stark contrast to the cookie cutter builds you see of the 3L lately?

No, there is no counter to ECM aside from ECM. I can't sit back and goad someone with an ECM to use up all his ECM so I can close on him where his ECM doesn't work and start pounding him because he is out of ECM or low on ECM. I could do that with LRM's back in the day, but now all I have to do is put on an ECM and that poor LRM guy is SOL.

We used to actually have LRM bait Jenners that would crown a hill stand, attract LRM's and them pull the LRM's into the side of the Cauldera, the hill at the crashed drop ship, in D8 on Forest where the 3 entrances are etc... Actually in D8 we would just fortify the position and it forced the LRM's to hang back while their team mates moved in for us all to equally trounce them, then their LRM's had no support and did no damage as we stuck to the cliff sides etc.

Nopers! Can't really do **** about ECM, aside from use ECM!

Edited by Valaska, 16 January 2013 - 11:47 PM.

[Mr Mantis]

Before ecm it was the same way with the jenner. Once collisions are in and lag shield is down people will use lights in their role (spotting, recon, pester, bait) you might not see the raven too much. Other light mechs will handle the job with more speed, or better jump jets, or smaller profile.

Always hoping for larger maps for better light usage, but I can't see that coming any time soon.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I did play Pre-ECM, and if you think AMS was a great counter to LRM boats, then I kinda feel bad for ya. Now sure, back when LRM's didn't hit very hard, it was not bad, but its not like it stopped the rain from happening when people worked as a team and used 2-3 boats on one target...

What happens when you put 2-3 laser boats on one target?
Yeah I thought so...
cause its totally JUST missiles lol why not just admit you couldnt figure out how to counter them in game so it was easier to come here and qq to get them broken? Like Ive been saying for months lol

[Valaska]

UAC5 boats are a hell of a lot more deadly than anything LRM boats could ever do, when ECM came out I would run one in spite and hunt down anything with ECM, I could take an atlas down in a matter of seconds in my Cataphract barring excessive jamming.

[Kousagi]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 January 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

What happens when you put 2-3 laser boats on one target?
Yeah I thought so...
cause its totally JUST missiles lol why not just admit you couldnt figure out how to counter them in game so it was easier to come here and qq to get them broken? Like Ive been saying for months lol

Yes, I totally found no way to counter a LRM boat, cause I suck at this game 100%. I so Die to LRM's ever match, even when my team has 6+ ECM's cause every match every single mech has a ECM, even in pug games. I totally never play LRM boats either, so I have Zero clue what I'm talking about.

We can throw out situational instances all we want, We will both keep thinking the way we do. I just know I would rather fight a Large Laser boat at range, then a LRM boat.

[Valaska]

In 8 mans, more or less (9 out of 10) at least 6 mechs have ECM on any given team, some full 8's will. I wrote in my post how we countered LRM's easily, especially easy when they dropped their damage to 1.7 and increased their spread.

[Mxxpower]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Yes, I totally found no way to counter a LRM boat, cause I suck at this game 100%. I so Die to LRM's ever match, even when my team has 6+ ECM's cause every match every single mech has a ECM, even in pug games. I totally never play LRM boats either, so I have Zero clue what I'm talking about.

We can throw out situational instances all we want, We will both keep thinking the way we do. I just know I would rather fight a Large Laser boat at range, then a LRM boat.

I think LRM's are really pretty balanced right now. That might change if ECM is nerfed, but ATM unless you are boating them and dedicated to teh role, there isn't a reason to equip them. Of course boating means you need your team to watch your back... balanced I think. It like 1.5 damage per missile VS double armor from TT rules so they are in actuality nerfed.

[Joe Mallad]

You both have valid points guys. Again... lets keep it somewhat civil if we can. Thanks

[Kousagi]

Mxxpower, on 16 January 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

I think LRM's are really pretty balanced right now. That might change if ECM is nerfed, but ATM unless you are boating them and dedicated to teh role, there isn't a reason to equip them. Of course boating means you need your team to watch your back... balanced I think. It like 1.5 damage per missile VS double armor from TT rules so they are in actuality nerfed.

With ECM in the game, yes. They are "balanced" but its not really a true balance. If you quote TT, they are 1 damage per missile and in MWO they are 1.8 damage per missile, where every other weapon is or is very close to, its TT equal in terms of damage.

[Revorn]

With 1.7 and without ECM, the community was fine with a Buff for LRMs because 1.7 didnt do enough dammage. Remember?

I would say 1.8 is fine, but with ECM at its current State, there is no reason for me to Play atm.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Yoseful Mallad, on 16 January 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

You both have valid points guys. Again... lets keep it somewhat civil if we can. Thanks

Hey Im good lol Its funny he seems to think that without ECM there are no counters to missiles but hey whatever, Just reinforces the point that was my sig for like two months

Hey, I also say take it back to TT standards for the damage, remove the ECM missile shield then put armor back to TT. Just like EVERY OTHER WEAPON SYSTEM IN THE GAME LRMs had to be changed to reflect the new armor amounts.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 January 2013 - 12:07 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Yes, I totally found no way to counter a LRM boat, cause I suck at this game 100%. I so Die to LRM's ever match, even when my team has 6+ ECM's cause every match every single mech has a ECM, even in pug games. I totally never play LRM boats either, so I have Zero clue what I'm talking about.

We can throw out situational instances all we want, We will both keep thinking the way we do. I just know I would rather fight a Large Laser boat at range, then a LRM boat.

lrm boats are only effective when they target someone stupid or distracted, now if you're distracted by an enemy ignoring the warnings or are pinned by other enemies fireing at you it's called being beaten. regardless of lrms if a cat had twin gauss instead as you're tackling some one else out in the open then you've been killed by focus fire. lrm's are easier to cope with as they can't do jack under 180 and it doesn't take long to face hug them to death.

yesterday on caustic vally our team started at the refinery end and took a right to the vally side as a pack. then met the enemy just starting to climb the cauldra the ac's and my erlasers opened up and oh dear they had an atlas and stalker lrm team. i got the dreaded warning so as my whole team sat there doing their dakka dakka against them doing dakka dakka 700 m away from us i ran for one of those tall rocks. cover saved me, i poked my nose out and erlasered them again. they waste more missles as i again take cover, the idiots never targets my team standing in the valley out in the open they kept vollying for me and i kept hiding. they wasted ammo and hit next to jack whilst our firepower ended up overwhelming them. they got no kills with the op weapons because lrm's aren't op. on caustic valley of all maps i took shelter and continued distracting their fire from better targets for lrmers. if they had targeted my out in the open group they would've either done the same as me or died a stupid death.

this all happens regardless of ecm. so there you are, the two stratagys which means you see more srms on the field than lrm's everyone else understands lrm's are no guarantees now hopefully you do too.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 17 January 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[Joe Mallad]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 January 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Hey Im good lol Its funny he seems to think that without ECM there are no counters to missiles but hey whatever, Just reinforces the point that was my sig for like two months

I have never had an issue countering LRM (with or without ECM). The big issue is ECM gives those that use Streaks, free reign to counter everything else in the game to some extent but still freely use one of the games (easiest/cheap) weapons against you. I know a lot of people think LRM users need no real skill to use them. But Streaks by far are this game's no skill to use weapon. I personally would love to see the Streak go bye bye lol

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 17 January 2013 - 12:13 AM.