224 replies to this topic

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Yoseful Mallad, on 15 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

The Raven is a good light mech... I'm not bashing it. But now its to the point that those of us that want/try to play 8 man games, can't even enjoy a good 8 man game because we are now running into full 8 man ECM Raven teams. Add to the mix that those same ECM Ravens can mess with your mech who are/may be running missiles of any kind... yet they almost always are using Streaks themselves. Then the kicker is the lag shielding and 8 Ravens have no fear.

I know there are many threads about ECM, Streaks, Lag Shielding and the many other in games issues but when you effectively give all these things to a fast mech... not much can beat it.

Now we have yet a third light mech with ECM lol.

To be honest... Im starting to feel that ECM mech should be mech that have no missile hard points themselves. I dont have an issue that these light ECM mech can disrupt other missile mech and can use their ECm to stop people from using Streaks on them, but they should not then be able to freely use Streaks on you from the comfort of their bubble.

It's always interesting to me when I play with 8 men teams and at the end someone says "I can't believe they had nothing but x or y" but then you go over what you saw in battle and it was a mixture of a bunch of things.

Perhaps my experience has been different... but I've only once come across an all 8 light lance (mostly light) and it was kinda a joke (as long as we played Defense and covered each other) and rarely have I come across all heavy lances which, if pulled apart, can be taken down (though not as easily).

Blame the teams that can't pull themselves together enough to fight with a balanced lance. And laugh at them, as those groups know if they were to bring a balanced group of mech they feel they wouldn't fare as well.

KDSN

[Solis Obscuri]

Mikhalio, on 16 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

But aside from the witty trool, I'm going to guess you agree with me ? Do you really think players will get better at MWO without ECW ? Or will they go back to their ezeemode LRM and SSRM/SRM 64 boat's.

I see more 64-SRM Cats than ever, and SSRMs are as generally prevalent as they were before the introduction of ECM (though 12 SSRM CPLT-A1s are much more rare). LRM boats are still relatively common, though players are more likely to carry supplemental weapon systems now (they should've in the first place IMO).

As for players getting better, I think that having the right sort of tools can help encourage behavior - if you provide things that facilitate teamwork, players will fall into it more easily. The default map/sensor-sharing tools of MWO impressed me from the stat, as they provided a simple and useful display of information that helped players work together without the use of voice-coms or much advance planning. The soft-launch of C3 seems much less successful, and generally underutilized, though I have some hop that a lobby system might help this along in future.

By contrast, ECM is a very easy to use passive device that effectively nullifies the opposing team's Information Warfare capacity. It confers an impressive set of advantages to the user - immunity to most SRM and LRM fire, immunity to sensor detection at >200m, and cutting off enemy units from team communication at <180m while confusing their teammates about friend-or-foe identification. On the level of an organized team, it facilities mass troop movements with minimal need for tactical use of terrain as cover and with little risk of detection or harassment by scouts and fire support units. In effect, ECM rewards sloppy play while challenging the opposing team to function at a higher level of play and tactical cohesion without the benefits of the basic game features designed to facilitate those behaviors. And while I think it's fundamentally bad design to incorporate game items that remove access to basic game features from other players, this is compounded by the paucity of in-game counters to ECM; TAG has a very limited capacity to counter ECM sensor disruption, and ECM run in ECCM mode can disrupt it at close range. That's all.

If a variety of non-equipment based counters (such as maybe alternate sensor modes etc. that could be used to provide detection/targeting abilities against ECM-cloaked units), or if ECM jamming required some degree of active involvement by the user along with a much narrower field of focus, the unit would be less imbalanced. But as it stands, it's very poorly balanced against other game equipment, and it doesn't so much add to as subtract from tactical depth and gameplay features, and to boot it isn't really teaching much of anything to the people using it, or those playing against it - besides perhaps that ECM is really strong and they should get on of the five 'mechs that can equip it.

Mikhalio, on 16 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Why not post a rebuttal on why you think players will suddenly get better if they are allowed to go back to their spam boats. Or how spam boats will increase teamplay and role specialization in your magical mech simulator ?

Streak boats haven't gone away, nor have LRM boats, SRM boats are prolific, a number of people have been experimenting heavily with PPC boats recently, Gauss boats have heavily diminished in popularity but I don't think that has anything to do with ECM, more likely the very low weapon health.

But "boat" configurations don't have anything to do with team play per se; they represent a degree of specialization that is often massively advantageous in a particular situation, in some cases quite powerful, and in most cases quite simplistic to use (fewer groups of weapons to keep track of, fewer lead distances etc. to deal with.) Boats can give a solo PUGger a leg up, but they're probably strongest in groups, where teammates can compensate for one-another's weaknesses. In the end I wouldn't say they matter either way, but since they represent a degree of specialization that can be advantageous when applied strategically, I would say they encourage teamwork to a small degree.

Mikhalio, on 16 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

SQUAWK.

Gesundheit.

[Garth Erlam]

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

And again on ECM - if you wrote a well-written, well laid out post with a suggestion on the suggestion forums, the designers have seen it. I also collated and included PM's (Though I'd prefer you guys use the suggestions forum! ), emails (see PM's) and the like. The total email was about 6 pages in size, with the ECM suggestions being about a page/page and a half (and mostly links.)

We can't just knee-jerk change things though. We play the same game you do, often IN the same games you do, so we've both heard, and seen with our own eyes, what you're talking about. And although my mighty Cicada fears no ECM, I understand that every Mech is different, and has different requirements.

So to sum up - we're on it.

[Brilig]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

And again on ECM - if you wrote a well-written, well laid out post with a suggestion on the suggestion forums, the designers have seen it. I also collated and included PM's (Though I'd prefer you guys use the suggestions forum! ), emails (see PM's) and the like. The total email was about 6 pages in size, with the ECM suggestions being about a page/page and a half (and mostly links.)

We can't just knee-jerk change things though. We play the same game you do, often IN the same games you do, so we've both heard, and seen with our own eyes, what you're talking about. And although my mighty Cicada fears no ECM, I understand that every Mech is different, and has different requirements.

So to sum up - we're on it.

Thank you. Eager to hear about what changes (if any) you intend to make!

[Goose]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

My experience, and that of everyone I know in-game, says otherwise …

[Frost Lord]

Krazy Kat, on 15 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

It is unfair that most ECM mechs can equip SSRM's. No one can use them against them, but they can use them no problem.

you can if you change yore ecm to counter theres, another trich is to use a tag laser.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

We can't just knee-jerk change things though.

You should at least do guardian like guardian is supposed to be done. Angel ECM (that doesnt even become experimental and only in the Draconis Combine until 3052 - two years farther on in the timeline from where youre starting the game) is what affects streaks and missiles. NOT Guardian

Goose, on 16 January 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

My experience, and that of everyone I know in-game, says otherwise …

Its the same thing with the group drops. They say we dont see that anywhere as often as we say we do.

[ICEFANG13]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

And again on ECM - if you wrote a well-written, well laid out post with a suggestion on the suggestion forums, the designers have seen it. I also collated and included PM's (Though I'd prefer you guys use the suggestions forum! ), emails (see PM's) and the like. The total email was about 6 pages in size, with the ECM suggestions being about a page/page and a half (and mostly links.)

We can't just knee-jerk change things though. We play the same game you do, often IN the same games you do, so we've both heard, and seen with our own eyes, what you're talking about. And although my mighty Cicada fears no ECM, I understand that every Mech is different, and has different requirements.

So to sum up - we're on it.

That wasn't so hard to say was it?

How is the Raven on the light mech scale? I'm gonna guess number 1 or 2 to the Commando-2D.

Also, I understand the Spider will tip the scales towards it, please ignore the last few days for my question, or answer both pre and post Spider (if you do answer, not knocking you, I understand you are busy).

Edited by ICEFANG13, 16 January 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I guess the one main question Id have for Garth would be "why did you all pick ANOTHER extremely fast, light mech to add to the game knowing the netcode issues already IN the game?"

But thats me

[Solis Obscuri]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

No, I'd guess the top 5 are probably:

Atlas AS7-D-DC
Catapult CPLT-A1
Cataphract CTF-2X
Stalker STK-5S
Stalker STK-3F

But I'd bet the RVN-3L is the most prolific light 'mech, even counting people trying out the new Spiders.

[Mikhalio]

Solis Obscuri, on 16 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

No, I'd guess the top 5 are probably:

Atlas AS7-D-DC
Catapult CPLT-A1
Cataphract CTF-2X
Stalker STK-5S
Stalker STK-3F

But I'd bet the RVN-3L is the most prolific light 'mech, even counting people trying out the new Spiders.

I doubt this.

Stalker maybe was a well used mech when it came out, but I see more Centurions now in N.Am primetime than Stalker 3F's these days....
Paul can tag team in on this one


No, actually boat builds have fallen off drastically. This would be very benificial to track if we had an API and killboard, but for now it's you vs. my heresay.

This being said, the ECW does serve a point.
LRM before the patch of ECW, specifically during its various bugs & glitches was being used as a Primary weapon group. In short range even. Same was SRM's and SSRM's. Players were literally not bothering with any weapon class due to the ease of use and education required to gain lock, cycle target and press alpha strike.
How often do you see those builds these days ? Be honest.
I count 1, and usually that guy is the first to die; and the first to whine.

ECM rewards players who become specialists. Vs guys who sit in the cap and simply afk snipe. This was the old way of play before ECM and I bet it will return to that before ECM is placed back into the game. The fact players would much rather run a boat, even in an assault Atlas indicates the risk/return of LRM spam is very skewed. Something that was debated ad nausum before PGI put in ECW.

ECW, in the context of the stop-gap of the project, is very much a valuable instrument for forcing medium to short range engagements without requiring every player to bring an AMS system when fighting 7 Streak-cat's. Which was and will become again, the dominant way for competitive match play.

For future Solicis, please write abit less wall of text. You max out the quote field, and that is the first time I have ever seen someone break max text tables before in a MMO forum.

[Joe Mallad]

Thank you Garth for posting and clarifying some. But I will add that in the 5 (8) man matches me and my unit just played... every light in all 5 games that we ran into (except 1 Jenner in each of 2 games) was a Raven 3L with ECM. I made sure to give props to the two Jenner pilots we ran into in those 2 games. It was a shock to see someone actually running a Jenner lol. Now granted... our two light mech pilots were also running Raven 3Ls but you almost always need a light with ECM now in 8 mans to even be somewhat competitive.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 16 January 2013 - 10:02 PM.

[Mikhalio]

der langsamere, on 16 January 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Doubt we'll ever see api capability as that could be used to count the number of people in the game (as per the other thread that was talking about doing that yesterday)

It depends, API call is actually pretty well used and secure if properly implemented. API would enable the community to create a killboard and a league play tournament mode, using coordinated drops with in-game rewards (just as soon as we have something barterable to offer as le Grand Mech Prix).
Api would also enable for push-apps similar to mech-builder or mech-lite for further improving their market penetration.

In short: yes it's doable. Every game from BF3 to EVE (see what I did there?) has a API call function. The game would benefit from this, and it's not too hard to do, as Crysis 3 had an API module out in the wild (that tied into Steam).

[Wynn80]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

And again on ECM - if you wrote a well-written, well laid out post with a suggestion on the suggestion forums, the designers have seen it. I also collated and included PM's (Though I'd prefer you guys use the suggestions forum! ), emails (see PM's) and the like. The total email was about 6 pages in size, with the ECM suggestions being about a page/page and a half (and mostly links.)

We can't just knee-jerk change things though. We play the same game you do, often IN the same games you do, so we've both heard, and seen with our own eyes, what you're talking about. And although my mighty Cicada fears no ECM, I understand that every Mech is different, and has different requirements.

So to sum up - we're on it.

Thank you so much as someone that has always use Ravens in battletech/mechwarrior games I'm happy to know that my beloved mech and role I like to play isn't going to get nerf in to the ground do too all the threads about Ravens single handling wiping out whole teams, taking all there lunch money and stealing their pets. The system still far from perfect but at least we know the all raven teams are not as likely as you would think with all the threads/posts.

Also been thinking about all the other layers of combat we know about that are not in the game, UAV and the satellite sweeps might counter ECM we don't know yet. But like I said few pages back the older Raven pilots didn't pick our chicken mech for the damage they do but always as recon/ecm support.

One happy non ssrm Raven pilot.

It's worth a shot can we have the 360 torso twist the Ravens had in the newer mech warrior games please

[Stone Profit]

If you see nothing but ravens, then you and I are playing different games altogether. Sure, Ive seen ravens, but Ive seen just as many cents, dragons, Phracts (Had a game with 5 phracts, including me, on my team alone.) and amazing since everyone says theyre dead, awesomes and jenners. and atlases, commandos, cicadas, and of course lots o spiders. Seems pretty balanced to me in the pugworld.

Edit:
Lots of stalkers too.

Edited by Stone Profit, 16 January 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[Sandslice]

Mikhalio, on 16 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Just being Mr. Obvious but lets ask who will have the most stakeholder gain from a ECW Nerf:

- Players who were marginally skilled and relied upon LRM Spam, or SSRM spam boats vs. players who actually aimed and played using non-free lunch teams.

As opposed to now, where players who are expertly skilled rely on... oh, wait, SSRM spam from Trollmandos and Cravens, and organise them into free lunch teams. Meanwhile, players who actually aim are denied the use of SSRM, boated or not, and have to use psychic powers (and/or laser semi-sweeps) to aim and hit them.

Also, the Catapults (other than the definitely direct-fire K2) are pretty much missile boats - 4M 2E, or 6M (and nothing else) on the A1. They still are, except that SRM-6 are the go-to boating weapon for them now - at least when they're not trying (with situational results) to LRM-boat... and I've seen a couple Streak cats out there. The latter, of course, tend to be completely free because some ECM hero will notice them and camp them.

Quote

So let's say, what would happen if ECW was nerfed.

a.) Players will learn the value of team work and communication, so they are not reliant on a minimap a la COD.
b.) Players will learn that they can influence with whines the direction of the game and will return to minimal game education builds like the LRM & SSRM Spam boats inorder to min/max their eternal grind for Mech Bux.....

I'm voting for b.)

From what I understand, ECM as we have it is proof of that lesson: people influencing the game with whines about big nasty Catapults and AWS-8R downfielding hordes of scary missiles to burrow into their 'Mechs like pangolin claws burrow into a termite mound.

Quote

Be honest, someone prove me that a nerf to ECW would ACTUALLY help this game grow as a community by fostering coordinated match builds or teamplay with specialist roles assigned to mechs, like, you know, how the game was envisioned....

Run a few eight-mans and get an average of ECM per match. I think you'll find that ECM is at least a dominant strategy, if not a strictly dominant.

[Editing redaction: had not seen Garth's post come up while posting this.]

Edited by Sandslice, 16 January 2013 - 10:43 PM.

[ollo]

IceCase88, on 15 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

It is not the ECM that makes them invulnerable. The ECM works as it should and according to TT rules. If you do not think it works according to TT rules then you are wrong and need to reread them. It spells out specifically how ECM functions and it performs the exact same in-game. The problem with the 3L is the hitboxes, lagshield to an extent, and too many hardpoints. Some of those hardpoints are supposed to be occupied by tag, bap, and narc. Someone pointed this out in another thread and it was a brilliant observation. Especially since the Raven is supposed to be a scout and electronic warfare specialist.

Perhaps you should reread them? Their biggest drawback should be their short range, LOL.

[Kousagi]

der langsamere, on 16 January 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

the Raven shouldnt be nerfed, the Guardian should be reworked to work how the guardian SHOULD work

The only thing the guardian gained that it does not have in TT is the one rule from the angel ECM in terms of blocking streaks. So please do not talk about TT as a reason for a ECM change. The TT ECM was used as a base line, and really it was improved on, as in TT a ECM is pretty hard to detect with radar, and the only good way to see them is with your pilots eye balls.

[Joe Mallad]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

If you see nothing but ravens, then you and I are playing different games altogether. Sure, Ive seen ravens, but Ive seen just as many cents, dragons, Phracts (Had a game with 5 phracts, including me, on my team alone.) and amazing since everyone says theyre dead, awesomes and jenners. and atlases, commandos, cicadas, and of course lots o spiders. Seems pretty balanced to me in the pugworld.

Edit:
Lots of stalkers too.

you are talking pug world... im talking 8 man world. The reason so many teams are still playing in pug games is because there is still a great mix of mechs and players in pugs. With no mech weight cap limit in 8 man games right now, most games are lopsided with it either being almost internally assaults or lights rushing you. That gets boring real quick. Add to the mix that most of those Assaults and or light heavy teams are running almost exclusively ECM pure teams. Its just not fun in the 8 man world right now lol

[Xyroc]

Not tried of seeing Ravens but rather Ravens that I hit and are not taking the damage they should ... commandos and jenners get beat up by laser raking but Ravens are getting a free pass and its quite annoying.

Saying that both as a person that fights them and a person that has them

Edited by Beliall, 16 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.