224 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Sure, they can totally remove that one rule, when LRM's get their damage dropped back to 1 per missile, lose the ability to lock on

Every missile (LRM/SRM/SSRM) was guided on TT. The guidance was sort of crappy, which was why there were cluster hit tables and the base to-hit was the same for missiles and ballistics and lasers and PPCs. The only exception were Dead-fire missiles, which were cheaper, had worse cluster-hit modifiers, but had larger warheads that increased damage, and MRMs, which receive an additional penalty to acccuracy. The fluff rationale for why basic SRMs and LRMs didn't have better guidance was that they were designed specifically to resist electronic jamming. This lines up, logically, with why various types of ECM can jam the more sophisticated Narc, Artemis FCS, and Streak systems, which enhance missile accuracy (in the form of cluster-hit) substantially.

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

You my friend are wrong. Double blind rules in the maxuim tech rule book has the whole sensor play. ECM Does hide mechs from radar. in fact its so good that normal mech sensors only have a chance to see a ECM equipped mech at short range ( 240 meters or 8 hexs ). To see a ECM mech with normal sensors you have to roll a 2 or 3 out of a 2d6... If they have a nullsig or angel then you have to roll a 2. Then If your mech was blocked by ECM ( failed to detect anything ), you still had zero clue where it was, the only thing the GM can say is, "you were jammed by ECM".

@ Solis Obscuri, Yes TT visual was one of the only ways to see a ECM mech with any reliability. This how ever is where things get fuzzy in the rules vs canon. Since rules kinda break canon stuff some, or they just didn't care to go over how every single weapon in the game reacts in this situation, so its just a blanket rule. Though Yes, going inside the ECM umbrella did cut off your mechs C3, and if it was a angel it stopped the streak part of SSRM, LRM's don't lock on in TT, so does not matter.

As for ECM and Sensor Scans under Level 3 rules...

Quote

SPOTTING PHASE
During the Spotting Phase. the gamemaster checks to see if any enemy unit is seen by an opposing unit.

To perform spotting, the gamemaster checks his map sheets after plotting the movement of the players' units. He first determines if the units can detect any enemy unit visually. Then he checks to see if they can detect any enemy unit by using sensors. The gamemaster then informs each player of the location, facing and type of any enemy unit detected.

Units that start a double-blind game using the Hidden Units rules (p.77, BMR) cannot be spotted except by the methods outlined in the standard game rules. If a hidden unit fires, it is spotted only if an enemy unit could have seen it under the visual spotting rules.

VISUAL SPOTTING
A unit visually detects an enemy unit whenever three conditions are met. First, the enemy unit must lie within the forward firing arc of the spotting unit. Second, the spotter must have a clear line of sight to the enemy unit. Third, the enemy unit must be within the visual range of the spotting unit. Use the Visual Range Table to determine maximum visual range under various
atmospheric conditions.

Spoiler

Vehicles with more than one crew member can spot in multiple firing arcs (see Vehicle Crews, p.28). Each additional crewmember beyond the first can spot in one additional firing arc, so that a vehicle with 4 or more crew members can spot in a 360 degree arc. Though infantry troops cannot see as far as BattleMechs or vehicles, they can serve as an excellent early warning system when properly deployed, because they offer the advantage of 360-degree spotting arcs.

SENSOR SPOTTING
Electronic sensors cover a wider field than most visual checks, but they can be fooled by the proper counter-measures. Electronic sensors operate in a 360-degree arc, regardless of the spotting unit's firing arc. All sensors, with the exception of seismic sensors, must have a line of sight to an enemy unit to detect it. The ranges of various BattleTech electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 54.

To use a sensor, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. A spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, and the controlling player must indicate this choice on the movement chart for that turn. (Note that the probe and sensor rules provided here apply in double-blind games only.)

Spoiler

Three enemy 'Mechs surround Natalie's Raven. Daylight fills the battlefield, and the Raven sees the first enemy 'Mech easily-the machine is within the Raven's forward firing arc, the Raven has a valid LOS and the enemy unit is only 14 hexes away, well within the Raven's 60-hex visual range. The second 'Mech lies 12 hexes away, within the Raven's LOS but in its left-side firing arc. The third lies in the Raven's rear firing arc, 19 hexes away, again within its LOS. The Raven mounts a Beagle active probe, which Natalie has activated for this turn, and so the gamemaster rolls 2D6 to determine if her Raven spots the remaining two "Mechs. The roll yields a result of 8, indicating that only units within short range are detected. This means that the Raven detects the second 'Mech, but not the third.

Vehicles have access to sensor systems similar to those used on 'Mechs, but in most cases these systems have shorter ranges, reflected in the Sensor Range Table. Infantry units do not have access to electronic sensors.

If seismic sensors are being used, any unit within range is spotted regardless of LOS. VTOLs cannot use seismic sensors, and they cannot be spotted by seismic sensors.

ECM SYSTEMS
Just as special sensors can make spottimg enemy units easier, special ECM systems can make units harder to detect. As a general rule, ECM systems mask a unit's nature and precise location from enemy sensors. but the systems' powerful jamming devices make it clear to the enemy that something is out there.

In the double-blind game, the Angel ECM suite, Guardian ECM suite and standard Clan ECM suites all modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit's probe/sensor and the enemy unit's ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM Modifier Table.

Spoiler

To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius ofthe ECM system. This radius is not affected by LOS. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems.

Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they also produce powerful. distinctive electromagnetic "signatures." If a spotting unit is in range of an active ECM device and fails to detect the ECM-equipped unit, inform the player that his unit has been jammed by an ECM suite.

The rules given here for each of the probes and ECM systems only apply in double-blind games. For general BattleTech rules governing the Guardian and Clan ECM suites and the Beagle active probe, see pages 122, 126-127 of the BattleTech Master Rules. For general rules and descriptions of the Bloodhound active probe, see Equipment, page 72.

(Maximum Tech, p.50-51)
So we are in effect, already limited to visual detection rules in MWO, since we can only detect and target enemies in our front arc FoV. If we could scan 360º for hidden enemy units, or enemy units obscured by weather conditions/darkness, having ECM jam those scans within it's 180m radius would line up with MaxTech rules... But as it stands we're already behaving as though an ECM was jamming our scanners, and MWO ECM now additionally prevents visual targeting and the relaying of spotted enemies to teammates out to over 4x the max range of ECM, as well as cutting off units from their team entirely while within the 180m "cloak" field. That's a ridiculous boost in power, compared to level 1, 2, or 3 rules for TT.

[Padic]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just to clear THIS thing up, I can assure you 3L Ravens aren't 'almost every Mech' (they actually aren't top 5, if memory serves, for the last 30 days.)

Oh man, this one sentence is just so awesome. How, exactly, does one get a career in which "analyzing the most popular robots in a video game about robots" is a productive use of time?

[DragonsFire]

Personally, I love seeing the Raven 3L's and Commando's because it's a free kill if they don't run away immediately. Then again, if I'm running my Cicada, they can't run away.

But I have sadly seen a decrease in 3L's recently as well.

Edited by DragonsFire, 17 January 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Kousagi]

Solis Obscuri, on 17 January 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Every missile (LRM/SRM/SSRM) was guided on TT. The guidance was sort of crappy, which was why there were cluster hit tables and the base to-hit was the same for missiles and ballistics and lasers and PPCs. The only exception were Dead-fire missiles, which were cheaper, had worse cluster-hit modifiers, but had larger warheads that increased damage, and MRMs, which receive an additional penalty to acccuracy. The fluff rationale for why basic SRMs and LRMs didn't have better guidance was that they were designed specifically to resist electronic jamming. This lines up, logically, with why various types of ECM can jam the more sophisticated Narc, Artemis FCS, and Streak systems, which enhance missile accuracy (in the form of cluster-hit) substantially.

As for ECM and Sensor Scans under Level 3 rules...

(Maximum Tech, p.50-51)
So we are in effect, already limited to visual detection rules in MWO, since we can only detect and target enemies in our front arc FoV. If we could scan 360º for hidden enemy units, or enemy units obscured by weather conditions/darkness, having ECM jam those scans within it's 180m radius would line up with MaxTech rules... But as it stands we're already behaving as though an ECM was jamming our scanners, and MWO ECM now additionally prevents visual targeting and the relaying of spotted enemies to teammates out to over 4x the max range of ECM, as well as cutting off units from their team entirely while within the 180m "cloak" field. That's a ridiculous boost in power, compared to level 1, 2, or 3 rules for TT.

Yes, TT LRM's and SRM's have a guidance system to them, but a Guidance system does not mean they lock on. Only certain types of Guidance systems lock on. Since both LRM's and SRM's are built to function in a ECM heavy area, that would mean their guidance system is enclosed in itself and has no outside help. As any help would need to be relayed to it via RF, which would get jammed, example being Artemis. Basic LRM's have a type of GPS guidance to them. Your Mech would target a mech, and predict where it needed to put the missiles to intercept the targeted mech. LRM's act like smaller form of Artillery in this way. Then you start getting in to all the other munition types that have different types of guidance systems.

As for the sensors, Its working just like the rules you posted. Even in TT if they are in the front arc the sensors still can't see them if it does not detect them, but your pilots eye balls can still see them, and shoot at them. Visual does not mean sensors themselves magically break ECM. MWO ECM does not block you from visually ID'ing a enemy mech. I spot them all the time, even shoot at them, and i even relay to friendlys where they are. As in TT it would work much the same, only thing is MWO does not have a built in radio system to talk with other mech pilots like TT pilots would have.

ECM also has Always cut off C3 networks in TT, so not sure where you are getting that it does not. I mean we are currently getting free of charge C3i systems in every mech in MWO.

edit in:

Though As I've said before, TT should not be a reason for or against change in MWO. TT is a base line from what they can change and improve, but! They still have to keep within the spirit of BT. Which Pretty much everything in BT is grounded in some scientific theory or real weapons already in use. So what ever they do change has to at least have a logical argument for why it works the way it does.

Edited by Kousagi, 17 January 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

I am getting so tired of it, I'm a great light pilot, but I'm tired of heavily handicapping myself. I'm in a Raven-3L, and that's the best light mech overall. Use it too.

[TheGreatNoNo]

I`m not tired of seeing them, a bad 3L pilot can be slow for a light AND they stay near you making things easier (Unless your crit and botch your shots like I did once, ONCE) However what I do not want to see again is the 3 raven 3L 3 Cicada DDC all ecm combo, with one stalker loaded with LRMs, that eight man sucked, should have brought my fast heavys.

Damnit , I stepped forward in time by two seconds and missed adding in a word or two. Clearly I did not forget to put that in.

Edited by Lost One, 17 January 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[Xostriyad]

getting tired of seeing these topic threads ALMOST as fast as it takes for me to core an Ecm Raven.

[Joe Mallad]

Lost One, on 17 January 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I`m tired of seeing them, a bad 3L pilot can be slow for a light AND they stay near you making things easier (Unless your crit and botch your shots like I did once, ONCE) However what I do not want to see again is the 3 raven 3L 3 Cicada DDC all ecm combo, with one stalker loaded with LRMs, that eight man sucked, should have brought my fast heavys.

i know ECM is needed and its a system that if implemented right, it can and will have its uses in a game like this. But under no circumstances should any one team be able to run ECM on all their mechs. Just before a match is to start, there should be a team que and in the que the limitations of what can an cant be used... you can bring as many Assaults or lights as you want but only 1 mech out of every 4 on your team can come into play with equipment like ECM. That would still give any one team potentially (if they want) the opportunity to run up to 3 ECM mech once we get to the point of 12 man teams. That I could live with. But these whole 8 man ECM teams have to go.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 17 January 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Mxxpower]

The biggest problem with ECM is that it is too cheap

400k cbil is 5 matches

NO XP COST

NO MODULE COST

1.5 ton weight? seriously pgi?

With no repair costs on mechs you can't even jack up the rates like when you blow up an xl engine.


Compare any 10000 GXP module to ECM.... what would you take?

It is so overpowered ATM it doesn't warrant discussion anymore.

[TheGreatNoNo]

I still think there should be a team point system put in place. Kind of like what they had on the wizkids TT mechwarrior game, mech chaise being x amount of point and special equipment being X amount (maybe modules, BAP and ecm? dunno)

[Eights n Aces]

I'm tired of hearing about TT accuracy. This is the real world, or as close to it as we are going to get. TT is one thing, where a few people sit around and roll dice. When you have thousands of people playing in a real world sim, you can really test how viable TT is. For those TT purists out there, it's not a bible or the absolute truth. Get over it. The game has to be playable and TT is always right.

[Gremlich Johns]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 15 January 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

I would find it amusing if they made ECM block the carrier's own lock-ons and any friendly lock-ons... and then left it on the same mechs that it is on now. Have fun learning to aim dumbfire missiles, people-who-use-streaks-as-a-crutch

This is the way actual ECM works. ECM in a MW game is intended to allow the scout mech to locate enemies without letting its presence known. Failing that, the ECM is intended to inhibit (meaning slow down) an opposing mechs target acquisition long enough to prevent a lock-on.

As PGI has implemented the ECM suite, they have effectively eliminated the Scout/Recon role from Role Warfare.

[Tennex]

all other light mechs are outclassed by lights with ECM. you just cant do anything to them, they jam you, and fire sSRMs at you. while you try to fire back and hit their lagshield. when they score a hit on you every sSRM

[Solis Obscuri]

I think I will never cease to be amazed by the number of players quoting "facts from TT" which don't reflect any of the core or advanced level BT rules in any shape or form.

[Solis Obscuri]

Kousagi, on 17 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Yes, TT LRM's and SRM's have a guidance system to them, but a Guidance system does not mean they lock on. Only certain types of Guidance systems lock on. Since both LRM's and SRM's are built to function in a ECM heavy area, that would mean their guidance system is enclosed in itself and has no outside help. As any help would need to be relayed to it via RF, which would get jammed, example being Artemis. Basic LRM's have a type of GPS guidance to them. Your Mech would target a mech, and predict where it needed to put the missiles to intercept the targeted mech. LRM's act like smaller form of Artillery in this way. Then you start getting in to all the other munition types that have different types of guidance systems.

LRMs do not target hexes and they do not function as artillery does in TT. LRMs target an enemy unit; sometimes they succeed in maintaining a lock and hitting, sometimes they don't. (Alternatively you could target a hex for the purpose of setting a fire or destroying a building, but that would be a different option.) Artemis functions as a sort of target painter, and is affected by ECM. Narc functions as a homing beacon, and is affected by ECM. Streaks are not affected by GECM, as they are similar to regular guided SRMs but with a vastly improved fire control system which only fires when the missiles are sure to hit, and ensures that all missiles in the salvo hit (perfect roll of the cluster hit table).

Kousagi, on 17 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

As for the sensors, Its working just like the rules you posted. Even in TT if they are in the front arc the sensors still can't see them if it does not detect them, but your pilots eye balls can still see them, and shoot at them. Visual does not mean sensors themselves magically break ECM. MWO ECM does not block you from visually ID'ing a enemy mech. I spot them all the time, even shoot at them, and i even relay to friendlys where they are. As in TT it would work much the same, only thing is MWO does not have a built in radio system to talk with other mech pilots like TT pilots would have.

In TT detection, be it visual or sensor, allows targeting of enemy units, relaying target info to friendly units (accurate information, not "hey guys there's four 'mechs coming through this 200m x 200m map grid" typed out manually in team chat), and it allows for spotting of indirect fire. As implemented in MWO, ECM blocks all of those functions. MWO ECM also prevents recognition of friend/foe for allied units within the 100m bubble, as well as removing information of their position for friendly units - those are not functions of ECM in double-blind TT play, either. So no, ECM in MWO does not function like ECM in Level 3 double-blind TT play.

Kousagi, on 17 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

ECM also has Always cut off C3 networks in TT, so not sure where you are getting that it does not. I mean we are currently getting free of charge C3i systems in every mech in MWO.

No, we don't. C3 reduces range penalties for direct-fire weapons only. It doesn't affect indirect fire, and it isn't required to share sensor data under double-blind rules.

Quote

C3 COMPUTER (MASTER/SLAVE)
The C3 computer system can link up to twelve ’Mechs or vehicles together—utilizing a series of C3 Master and C3 Slaves—in a communications network that will share targeting information.

To make an attack using a C3 computer network, calculate the to-hit number using the range to the target from the networked unit nearest the target with line of sight. Use the firing unit’s modifiers for movement, terrain effects, minimum range and so on. A weapon attack using a C3 network must conform to standard LOS restrictions and cannot fire beyond its maximum range, though a well-placed lancemate may allow the firing unit to use his weapon’s short-range to-hit number at long range.

The C3 network itself has no maximum range, but only units actually on the playing area can benefit from the network, and the C3 Master (or C3 Masters if using a company-sized network) must be on the playing area.

TAG: The C3 Master (but not the C3 Slaves) exactly duplicates the function of target acquisition gear (see TAG; p. 142).

LRM Indirect Fire: C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network.

Minimum Ranges: Minimum range is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.

Variable Damage Weapons: The range, to determine the Damage Value of a Variable Damage Weapon, is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.

Stealth Armor: Armor that inficts range modifiers against attacking units does not confuse a C3 network. While such additional range modifiers apply to the nearest attacking unit, they do not apply to any other units using the network to attack. However, some such systems (notably the Stealth Armor System, p. 142) include their own ECM system; in this case, an attacking unit must be outside the effective range of the ECM mounted on the target unit, or the attacker gets cutoff from the network.

(Total Warfare; p. 131)

[hammerreborn]

Gremlich Johns, on 17 January 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

This is the way actual ECM works. ECM in a MW game is intended to allow the scout mech to locate enemies without letting its presence known. Failing that, the ECM is intended to inhibit (meaning slow down) an opposing mechs target acquisition long enough to prevent a lock-on.

As PGI has implemented the ECM suite, they have effectively eliminated the Scout/Recon role from Role Warfare.

Or you know, gave the Scout/Recon role purpose, as anyone could see every mech otherwise since every mech has 800 viewing range.

[Koujo]

It's getting worse. Was gone for a week due to work and now when I come back there's 4 light ECM mechs in almost every match. It's rare I have a game that isn't ruined by these morons.

[hammerreborn]

Koujo, on 17 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

It's getting worse. Was gone for a week due to work and now when I come back there's 4 light ECM mechs in almost every match. It's rare I have a game that isn't ruined by these morons.

Wait another week (especially don't log on this weekend) and the Spiderfest will die down.

[Kousagi]

Solis Obscuri, on 17 January 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

LRMs do not target hexes and they do not function as artillery does in TT. LRMs target an enemy unit; sometimes they succeed in maintaining a lock and hitting, sometimes they don't. (Alternatively you could target a hex for the purpose of setting a fire or destroying a building, but that would be a different option.) Artemis functions as a sort of target painter, and is affected by ECM. Narc functions as a homing beacon, and is affected by ECM. Streaks are not affected by GECM, as they are similar to regular guided SRMs but with a vastly improved fire control system which only fires when the missiles are sure to hit, and ensures that all missiles in the salvo hit (perfect roll of the cluster hit table).

In TT detection, be it visual or sensor, allows targeting of enemy units, relaying target info to friendly units (accurate information, not "hey guys there's four 'mechs coming through this 200m x 200m map grid" typed out manually in team chat), and it allows for spotting of indirect fire. As implemented in MWO, ECM blocks all of those functions. MWO ECM also prevents recognition of friend/foe for allied units within the 100m bubble, as well as removing information of their position for friendly units - those are not functions of ECM in double-blind TT play, either. So no, ECM in MWO does not function like ECM in Level 3 double-blind TT play.

No, we don't. C3 reduces range penalties for direct-fire weapons only. It doesn't affect indirect fire, and it isn't required to share sensor data under double-blind rules.

(Total Warfare; p. 131)

No crap LRM's don't target hex's, never said they did. You are looking at LRM's from a pure rule stand point. Which does not translate in to real time at all. I was telling you how they work from a canon stand point, which explains the rule and why they are what they are. Artemis does have a laser system on it but it relays the targeting info back to the LRM's via a tight-band antenna, which is a RF device, which is what ECM jams. Streaks not being effected by Guardian and being effected by Angel is a bit odd, Only reason I can think of is that since Streaks are short range any RF device they are using has enough power to cut through Guardian but not Angel, since the Angel counts as 2 ECM's.

Mechs can not share targeting data without a C3 system. That also means they can't share radar contacts or anything else without a C3 system. This is canon, you can look it up. Plus, ya know... level 3 rules add on to level 2 rules, in level 2 rules ECM does cut off any C3 system that is inside or runs through a ECM field.

We do have C3 in MWO, as proof of the target data sharing. You own posting of the rules says it right there in the first sentience. Also C3 does not effect LRM's indirect, but there are some indirect weapons that do.

Thing is, you are looking at the game from a Pure rule book stand point. That does not work, cause everything in BT does not have a rule for it. Theres lots of fluff stuff that explains why the rules are the way they are, and how different things interact with each other even if they don't have rules for them. TT is not always going to translate well in to MWO, so they have to change things here and there to make it work.

Edited by Kousagi, 17 January 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Hansh0tfirst]

Yoseful Mallad, on 15 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

there are other light mechs that are good mechs. Other Ravens...

LOL @ "Other Ravens"

Seriously? Even before ECM, the "other Ravens" were an absolute joke compared to the 3L (and the 3L was an absolute joke compared to the Jenner). The day we can equip a 295 engine in those "other Ravens" they *might* be half-decent, 'till then however they're little more than a stepping stone for the Pilot Lab.