168 replies to this topic

[Scar]

Lima Zulu, on 16 January 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

[/size]
Personally I'd better have mechwarrior game called WalkingTanks than walking tanks game called mechwarrior...

Sad, but true. Now, that's all what we have.

Edited by Scar, 16 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Ragor]

Penance, on 16 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Why not?

MWll was being made "under the table" so to speak, as a free modification to an existing game. They were using the MechWarrior name without permission apparently (but it was ok at the time due to legalese structuring).

" we are, as of this point, no longer allowed to create future content based on the MechWarrior IP due to legal obligations on behalf of various rights holders"


This quote from the letter, basically tells me that the studio, used the MW name, withouth permission from microsoft who holds the digital rights to the game. Other companies hold rights to other chassis they are using, but can't.

MS will give exclusivity to whom whoever pays more.

This is BS.
MWLL started 2007 - when MS exclusively hold the virtual BT rights.
But since 2007 stuff changed. MS licenced the rights.
Wandering Samurai (the MWLL team) had the official, written rights from MS to use the BT IP for a non commercial product when they started developing MWLL.

Not more and not less.

Edited by Ragor, 16 January 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Jale]

Why would someone think that IGPGI would wanna do something bad to MW:LL.

They said that they are having problems with rights over the IP, but PGI have that rights and they earned it from Microsoft. So basically MW:LL cannot produce anymore. PGI saw this and rather than leaving it as it is they wanted to offer MW:LL devs work at PGI - now tell me is there anything evil?
They are gonna melt into one community and MW:LL devs will probably continue to work with PGI to help them ( PGI to help them as well) make MWO the best mech online experience with ideas taken from MW:LL and combined with MWO, MW:LL devs are gonna have a lot a work to do as well - they are not gonna shut down, if anything they can become very successful at it. Just think about it.
Plus, Randall Bills and Catalyst game lab are also helping MWO to reach something that we never saw. That way MWO wouldnt include just work of PGI who still have a lot of work to do.

You are all just being silly because obviously new mechwarrior online game needs a lot of time and patience so you lose all your optimism and complain all the time. You all reacted like "Its PGI fault, im sure... - flies away" like you are being angry for ECM not being implemented right or something. And im saying this because this is huge and we need more time observing this situation that's all.

Edited by Jale, 16 January 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Its too bad both projects cant continue.

Edited by SilentWolff, 16 January 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Zaro27]

A lack of competitors can make a game stale. With competition between the two, both devs would have been motivated to make a better product. It just seems like pgi can get lazy now.

[Scar]

Zaro27, on 16 January 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

It just seems like pgi can get lazy now.

Now? NOW???

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Congzilla, on 16 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

PGI has gotten the rights for Mechwarrior from Microsoft and by doing so is expected to protect the IP which includes shutting down people producing games based on the IP without the licensing rights.

I think its not true.MW:LL is free project and you dont need rights to product anything untill its free(in majority of states).

I am not true fan of MW:LL but its rly sad.I hope PGI will hire them up and they will continue work on MWO to help PGI's unmanned staff

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 17 January 2013 - 12:09 AM.

[Capt Cole 117]

ALL IS NOT LOST
They weren’t getting paid anyway
Lots of people have game assets
Thus they could anonymously release new materiel, yet have plausible deniability.

[Capt Cole 117]

Congzilla, on 16 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

PGI has gotten the rights for Mechwarrior from Microsoft and by doing so is expected to protect the IP which includes shutting down people producing games based on the IP without the licensing rights.

PGI has a license just like the MWLL team. PGI does not have the authority to shut down MWLL, I suspect it was microsoft which is known for having a very anti mod attitude.

[Tor Matthews]

PGI forced the owners of wandering samurai, who are now working at crytek, to shut down development of MWLL by pressuring them through crytek themselves. This is because crytek and PGI are naturally working together due to MWO being on cryengine 3, and crytek didnt want a potential "competing" product out there still being deveolped with the one they were taking a cut of (MWO).

That is the reality of the situation. PGI is directly responsible, and should be treated with disdain as such.

Edited by Tor Matthews, 17 January 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[Egomane]

Tor Matthews, on 17 January 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

PGI forced the owners of wandering samurai, who are now working at crytek, to shut down development of MWLL by pressuring them through crytek themselves. This is because crytek and PGI are naturally working together due to MWO being on cryengine 3, and crytek didnt want a potential "competing" product out there still being deveolped with the one they were taking a cut of (MWO).

That is the reality of the situation. PGI is directly responsible, and should be treated with disdain as such.

Again someone is throwing a wild accusations without proof.

I find it disheartening that those who want to accuse PGI/IGP, do not even believe the developers of MW:LL themself, when they say that there is no one to blame. http://forum.mechliv...ic,18949.0.html

Why all the hate?

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Again someone is throwing a wild accusations without proof.

I find it disheartening that those who want to accuse PGI/IGP, do not even believe the developers of MW:LL themself, when they say that there is no one to blame. http://forum.mechliv...ic,18949.0.html

Why all the hate?

Someone already posted this - but let me quote it again. What developers said initially. this part was deleted from the late version of text.

Quote

"As Developers and Staff of Wandering Samurai Studios, we are, as of this point, no longer allowed to create future content based on the MechWarrior IP due to legal obligations on behalf of various rights holders," Defender wrote. "These rights holders own the Legally Binding, Non-Transferrable, Non-Commercial License Agreement with Microsoft and as of 2013 will no longer officially support the MechWarrior: Living Legends division of Wandering Samurai Studios."
http://www.shacknews...ights-withdrawn

Now, please - tell us, who those mysterious "right holders" and who will get the the greatest benefit from MWLL closing.

Edited by Scar, 17 January 2013 - 02:00 AM.

[Egomane]

Drawing to a conclusion without knowing all the facts.

PGI, very openly declared, that they made an agreement with the folks of MW:LL. Those folks, with the exception of Defender, all say, that all communication has been very friendly. Why is it so hard to grasp, that this might have been mutual? That you can not blame one without the other?

Why is the one voice of Defender, who is the only Developer who spoke against PGI (and his post has been edited since) held in so much higher regard, then all the others on both sides of the coin? What is making his so much more trustworthy?

You want PGI to be guilty, but you don't want to look beyond that, as the truth might hurt how you envision PGI/IGP as the bad guys. I believe this is very sad!

[Tor Matthews]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Again someone is throwing a wild accusations without proof.

I find it disheartening that those who want to accuse PGI/IGP, do not even believe the developers of MW:LL themself, when they say that there is no one to blame. http://forum.mechliv...ic,18949.0.html

Why all the hate?

This isnt the wild accusation, this is the fact of the situation. You arent allowed to just say something isnt true and have it be that way.

Your own misinformation is very funny too.

Edited by Tor Matthews, 17 January 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[Egomane]

Tor Matthews, on 17 January 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

This isnt the wild accusation, this is the fact of the situation. You arent allowed to just say something isnt true and have it be that way.

Your own misinformation is very funny too.

Ok... please show me proof that this is indeed fact and not some made up accusation based on rumors and interpretation of "read between lines" statements.

Show me one piece of real evidence! Only one!

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Drawing to a conclusion without knowing all the facts.

Noone can know ALL the facts. But there are more than enough of facts + i don't believe in such coincidences.

Quote

PGI, very openly declared,

PGI have made too much of declarations that has been proved as untrue later. About the game, Beta, Community Warfare, monetization, timelines and many many other things.

Quote

that they made an agreement with the folks of MW:LL.

Agreement about WHAT? "Make your last patch and ****"? Yeah, sure - they've made an offer that Samurai couldn't refuse.

Quote

Those folks, with the exception of Defender, all say, that all communication has been very friendly.

In real business, ABSOLUTELY majority of the ultimatums are given with friendly smile, in friendly manner and with hope on the "mutual understanding". The only criteria here is the: time, motivation and result/outcome.

Quote

Why is it so hard to grasp, that this might have been mutual? That you can not blame one without the other?

May be because i know how the REAL business works? And it's very logical that MWLL closed its doors now, due to "legal obligations" - when its developers had so much plans and were ready to work on the project further FOR FREE.

Quote

Why is the one voice of Defender, who is the only Developer who spoke against PGI (and his post has been edited since) held in so much higher regard, then all the others on both sides of the coin? What is making his so much more trustworthy?

Because he's a volunteer, he don't lose or gain anything from the truth, and his words are backed very well by the time and logic, whereas Samurai founders are tied up by the business relations between Crytek and PGI/IGP and by the intellectual rights.

Quote

You want PGI to be guilty, but you don't want to look beyond that, as the truth might hurt how you envision PGI/IGP as the bad guys. I believe this is very sad!

No, i don't want ANYONE to be guilty - i'm just looking at facts and making conclusions based on the logic and deduction.The situation is pretty clear for any who really know "how this kitchen works".

So, you didn't answer the questions:
Who're those right holders?
Who will get the greatest benefit from MWLL closing?

Edited by Scar, 17 January 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[Purplefluffybunny]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Drawing to a conclusion without knowing all the facts.

PGI, very openly declared, that they made an agreement with the folks of MW:LL. Those folks, with the exception of Defender, all say, that all communication has been very friendly. Why is it so hard to grasp, that this might have been mutual? That you can not blame one without the other?

Why is the one voice of Defender, who is the only Developer who spoke against PGI (and his post has been edited since) held in so much higher regard, then all the others on both sides of the coin? What is making his so much more trustworthy?

You want PGI to be guilty, but you don't want to look beyond that, as the truth might hurt how you envision PGI/IGP as the bad guys. I believe this is very sad!

You are wrong it is not just defender but most of the dev team at MWLL that hold a different opinion to the owners, Kamikaze and Criminal. The pair of them work at crytek who license CE3 to PGI. So, quite obviously, there was a conflict of Interest. There was no way Kamikaze and Criminal could keep the project going without legal issues and perhaps losing their jobs. It didn't come to that because the pair agreed to play ball at an early stage.

Was a direct open threat made by PGI? No. Did PGI initiate the cessation of development of MWLL? Yes. Would there have been negative acts taken against Kamikaze and Criminal should they continue with MWLL? Yes.

Let us try not to be revisionist, Egomane.

Edited by Purplefluffybunny, 17 January 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Egomane]

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

PGI have made too much of declarations that has been proved as untrue later. About the game, Beta, Community Warfare, monetization, timelines and many many other things.

Irrelevant, because those were different cases and matters of the past, not connected to this case. Also this time their declaration is backed up by the statements of the non-profit license holders.

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Agreement about WHAT? "Make your last patch and ****"? Yeah, sure - they've made an offer that Samurai couldn't refuse.

Assumption! Not fact!

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

In real business, ABSOLUTELY majority of the ultimatums are given with friendly smile, in friendly manner and with hope on the "mutual understanding". The only criteria here is the: time, motivation and result/outcome.

Assumption! Not fact!

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

May be because i know how the REAL business works? And it's very logical that MWLL closed its doors now, due to "legal obligations" - when its developers had so much plans and were ready to work on the project further FOR FREE.

Assumption! Not fact!

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Because he's a volunteer, he don't lose or gain anything from the truth, and his words are backed very well by the time and logic, whereas Samurai founders are tied up by the business relations between Crytek and PGI/IGP and by the intellectual rights.

He is losing a project into which he invested a lot of time, work and heart. He is backed up by assumptions and accusations, not by facts (see above). It is clear to me, that he is frustrated (but that is also only an assumption and therefore I do not dismiss him totally).

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

No, i don't want ANYONE to be guilty - i'm just looking at facts and making conclusions based on the logic and deduction.The situation is pretty clear for any who really know "how this kitchen works".

You don't want anyone to be guilty but refuse to look at evidence that proves you wrong.

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

So, you didn't answer the questions:
Who're those right holders?
Who will get the greatest benefit from MWLL closing?

Right holders: Microsoft, PGI/IGP, Harmony Gold, Crytek
Most benefit from closing: Absolutly nobody! Not at this point in time or in the past year.

Purplefluffybunny, on 17 January 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

You are wrong it is not just defender but most of the dev team at MWLL that hold a different opinion to the owners, Kamikaze and Criminal. The pair of them work at crytek who license CE3 to PGI. So, quite obviously there was a conflict of Interest. There was no way Kamikaze and Criminal could keep the project going without legal issues and perhaps losing their jobs. It didn't come to that because the pair agreed to play ball at an early stage.

No one of the other developers, besides Defender, is claiming PGI to be responsible for the close down. At least not as far as I have seen it. They do not agree with closing the project but they don't play the "blame-game".

Purplefluffybunny, on 17 January 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Was a direct open threat made by PGI? No. Did PGI initiate the cessation of development of MWLL? Yes. Would there have been negative acts taken against Kamikaze and Criminal should they continue with MWLL? Yes.

Threat = No!
PGI making a first step = Yes! (someone is always making a first step, you know?)
Negative acts against Kami and Crim = We don't know! Probably not, if we look at Crims post on the frontpage of the MWLL site

Quote

First and foremost there has not, nor has there ever been, any legal action or threat of legal action leveraged against the MechWarrior: Living Legends development team. This was an assumption of a small amount of volunteers based on incomplete information.

I'm not a revisionist. I am only looking at the facts before me. Both, the accused offender and the proposed victims, are telling me that it was mutual and friendly. The witnesses are only voicing personal opinion. As a judge I would close down the case right there.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Prosperity Park, on 16 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

*cough*CounterStrike*cough*cough*

If MechWarrior: Living Legends wasn't created based on somebody else's IP, then it never would have been shutdown. It doesn't matter if PGI/IGP/Anyone was aggressive, passive, polite, or friendly... When Microsoft leased the rights to Day1 Studios for them to make Mech Assault, there was no internet/online function for the game, there was no reason to pull any plugs on LL. Now that Microsoft has leased the exclusive rights to a company that's making an online/internet-based competitive game, then it is perfectly reasonable for someone want the non-official, non-licensed product to cease development.

I do not know who started what in terms of stopping the development of MWLL. I don't know if PGI/IGP/Microsoft/anyone send anyone an email at any time. I am, however, not surprised from a legal or business standpoint that this happened. (edit - I don't know anything about the inside dealings that transpired.. again, just saying that)

Like I said, BattleTech is an established IP that people own. If somebody had made a game called WalkingTanks: Living Legends, then nothing would have happened to it. I am not voicing any "official support" for anyone on this issue, but I am saying that it makes sense for the legal rights-owners to have exclusive rights to make a product for the market that uses owned IP.

plus it seems that LL got a bit "too ambitious" from a commercial-developers PoV... as long as it was a funny mod it would not have been a real threat... but with planetary conquest and all the stuff planned, and due to the fact that it was completely free, while not just a mod anymore, but becoming more and more a game, it makes sense from the commercial PoV to see a growing threat in LL... and honestly, as sad as it is for them, but if you create a game based on a license "that is not needed at the moment" you have to bank on something like this happen... buisness is an evil world, sad but inevitable

and MS...well they rather give the IP to someone who pays for it... if you lend something to someone, you will likely take it back if you need it for yourself... and intellectual property is still property...

as i said, sad to hear it...i never played LL myself, but i have great respect for all those dedicated modders out there...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 17 January 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Most benefit from closing: Absolutly nobody! Not at this point in time or in the past year.

O'RLY?! you're funny...or just blind.