2 replies to this topic

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Sorry, but yes, this is another "fix for missiles" thread. I think I have an idea worth looking at here, and I haven't seen this one before, so here goes.

A couple of assumptions I'm making have put me on this train of thought. 1) LRMs aren't currently balanced as well as they could be. 2) Streaks aren't currently balanced as well as they could be. And 3) The current implementation of ECM is a band-aid solution that doesn't address the core problems. If you don't agree with these assumptions, then you probably won't like my ideas.

I'm also assuming that ECM remains relatively unchanged since the developers seem to like the current implementation. Possible adjustment to TAG and NARC are worth discussing as well; I don't have much experience with those systems myself so I won't talk much about them.

Long range missiles and streaks are the only weapon systems in the game that are guided, and I think that it is the "fire and forget" mechanic that has made them so challenging and difficult for the development team to balance. It seems like the only way to make these systems work, but that doesn't have to be the case.

So how do you use LRMs without a target lock, especially in indirect fire mode? A friendly spotter gets you target data like always. You hit "r" to select the target and then fire the weapon. As long as you manually hold the reticle over the red box, the missiles will track that target. If you lose the target data, or if you stop tracking the target manually, the missiles go to the last known location just like they do now but with a significantly increased spread. If that is still imbalanced, just have the missiles keep flying straight from wherever they were when the data was lost. It's not a huge change really, but it requires a bit more active participation from the player to make them work efficiently.

Direct fire with LOS works essentially the same way except that you obviously can get your own targeting data; I don't think TAG needs any alterations in this situation but that is up for debate. Against ECM shielded mechs, you can still dumb-fire effectively if you hold your reticle on the target. Again not a huge change, just a bit more effort required of the player.

Streaks without a lock are a bit more simple since there is no indirect fire mode. You aim at the target, just like you would with regular SRMs. If the target is not under you aiming reticle, then the missiles do not fire. If it is under your reticle, then the missiles do fire. They may need to still track at that point to compensate for lateral movement or it could be coded to take lead time in to effect, in which case tracking would be unnecessary.

A short (~.25 second) cool-down on a failed attempt to fire would prevent people from just raking the reticle across the screen until they hit the right spot. Streaks would become what they are supposed to be: a short range missile launcher that conserves ammunition instead of a short range missile launcher that auto-magically hits. This system would make the possible future SSRM-4s and SSRM-6s balanced as well.

"But Warrax the Chaos Warrior" you exclaim in a high-squeaky voice, "we NEED super-lock-on-tracking-streaks to kill those pesky light mechs!" The "lag shield" and hit boxes must be fixed if this game is going to have a future. Streaks are an ineffectual band-aid solution to the net code problems, just like ECM is an ineffectual band-aid solution to the streak problem. They all need to be addressed eventually.

If you are still here, then thanks for reading. I hope I have been clear in expressing my ideas and that enough people agree with me to get some attention from the developers.

If you didn't read, then the TL:DR version is: Lasers, ballistics, and SRMs work great without auto-magic lock-on or guidance; streaks and LRMs CAN work the same way.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 16 January 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Firesteel]

LRMs used to be fire and forget in CB, but since OB, and much of CB, they have had their current mechanic of maintaining lock and target data to keep them tracking, in addition to having their spreads nerfed, damage buffed, and flight time nerfed, along with their actual accuracy.
Notice that if you are going fast enough, LRMs are incapable of hitting you since they move too slowly.

The real problem with LRMs is that they do too much damage. in TT, they do 1 damage per missile, while here they do 1.8 damage (almost double what they should).

here is a now dead thread on my overall proposal for balancing thim
http://mwomercs.com/...44#entry1730644

In essence, I want their damage nerfed, accuracy and flight time buffed (make them more accurate by default so they can hit something, and speed up their flight time so they aren't useless at their intended LONG range).

I would also like to note that I am a long time Catapult LRM pilot.

Streaks on the other hand should have spread to the actual volley. Part of why they are so powerful is that, along with the almost guaranteed hit, they are more accurate than standard SRMs, while maintaining their damage. This is consistent with TT, but since SRMs got a damage buff too, they are far too powerful, and it has been that way for as long as streaks have been in MWO.

EDIT:
In response to a few of your ideas:
What you talk about with LRMs is basically what happens now. The reason missiles still track you even if you think you have broken LOS is that there is a slight time gap between losing LOS and targeting data, which can now be increased with a module. Also, there may be a spotter you are unaware of.

What you are detailing is exactly the system we currently have, just a little stricter with lock-ons. When LRMs "Lock on" the user is required to maintain the lock if he/she wants them to track a target.

LRMs also have less leniency with where the reticule can be while maintaining a lock when compared to SSRMs.

The other problem dumfire LRMs have is their horrendous flight speed, which is why no one dumbfires them. Even just past minimum range, you must lead your target by a massive margin and hope he doesn't realize there are missiles in his path.

The problem is not the lock-on mechanic, it is the way LRMs have had their stats changed.

Streaks are a fire and forget system and really the biggest solution in my view is both bringing back RnR as well as giving them a longer cooldown between shots and a horrendously slow travel time like LRMs.

Edited by Firesteel, 16 January 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Firesteel, on 16 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

The real problem with LRMs is that they do too much damage. in TT, they do 1 damage per missile, while here they do 1.8 damage (almost double what they should).

EDIT:
In response to a few of your ideas:
What you talk about with LRMs is basically what happens now. The reason missiles still track you even if you think you have broken LOS is that there is a slight time gap between losing LOS and targeting data, which can now be increased with a module. Also, there may be a spotter you are unaware of.

What you are detailing is exactly the system we currently have, just a little stricter with lock-ons. When LRMs "Lock on" the user is required to maintain the lock if he/she wants them to track a target.

LRMs also have less leniency with where the reticule can be while maintaining a lock when compared to SSRMs.

The other problem dumfire LRMs have is their horrendous flight speed, which is why no one dumbfires them. Even just past minimum range, you must lead your target by a massive margin and hope he doesn't realize there are missiles in his path.

The problem is not the lock-on mechanic, it is the way LRMs have had their stats changed.

Streaks are a fire and forget system and really the biggest solution in my view is both bringing back RnR as well as giving them a longer cooldown between shots and a horrendously slow travel time like LRMs.

It's 1.8 damage versus doubled armor, so still actually less than TT, RoF notwithstanding. There have been a lot of patches adjusting LRM damage and there will always be people that think it is either too low or too high. Less damage with higher velocity might be a good idea though.

My suggested changes wouldn't do too much to how LRMs work. It would just require the player to actively guide the missiles; you don't need the current lock-on mechanic to do that, just have the missiles track toward where your reticle actually is with target data from a spotter allowing the reticle to "see" through objects.

As for RnR fixing streaks- when we had RnR, streaks were still being abused. You cannot balance weapons solely with economics, it simply does not work. Too many people have tens or even hundreds of millions of c-bills banked at this point (I've got over 25 million, and I've wasted it on dumb stuff.) When premium time is needed to use missiles, the game starts to shift towards P2W.

Increasing the cool down or lowering the damage/flight-time etc. runs the risk of either not being enough or nerfing the weapon into uselessness. You also have to consider how it effects them while being boated and how it effects them as a backup weapon. I think my solution works equally well for one launcher as it does for six, and will still work for streak-6s and 4s.