41 replies to this topic

[TheComet]

yeah I'm going to be that guy.

I'm a fan of the Word of Blake Shadow Divisions o.o

[Threat Doc]

Jaroth Winson, on 03 June 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Once again you have your facts screwed up. They were not dumped & left to their own devices. Kerlin Ward commanded them to help the IS prepare for the Clan invasion.

Was Kerlin Ward able to view and directly command the Wolf Dragoons?

No?

Oh, that's right, he was like 1,000 light years away, wasn't he?!?! No direct line of communication. THEY WERE LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES UNDER COLONEL JAMIE WOLF, and later to his daughter Maeve. She's a different story. Stop being obtuse, please?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Dumped & left to their own devices means they were in regular communications & then the Homeworlds stopped talking to them all of a sudden, they had no idea what to do & then decided to hunker down in the IS, then decided to oppose the Clans.

They were ORDERED to. The Chain of command handed them a set of directives, which they complied with. Stop being an obstinate ***. You said the wrong thing, AGAIN, & the lore says so.

[Nerroth]

Of the various "Terran" factions, I would most favour the Republic of the Sphere. Of the others that have held humanity's homeworld in one era or another, the Terran Hegemony was in many ways a pioneer in terms of establishing the direction and nature of the BattleTech timeline; but even so, I don't find it to have been as compelling a realm or setting to me as the Republic.

Of the five Successor States, the once-and-future Free Worlds League stands out the most to me. I find it harder to sense the character of some of the other Houses, at least when you look at the maps. With the League, the presence of so many major and minor member states, along with all of the individual worlds added to the mix, makes things more interesting. Particularly so in the Republic Era and Dark Age, as the re-formed League hangs on a knife-edge between powerful neighbours from without and estranged locals in their own back yard.

Of the major Periphery states, the Magistracy of Canopus is perhaps the most prominent in my mind. Its careful way of doing things, and ability to turn seemingly-intractable situations to its advantage, have been a factor as far back as its handling of Operation ARDENT SHIELD right the way through its careful balancing of its Capellan and Andurien relationships through 3145.

so far as the minor near-Periphery powers go, I kind of like the Rim Collection; which also covers my favourite mercenary force, Able's Aces (who have found a place, and purpose, within Collection space, and even have the odd lizard monster to chase over on Hunter's Paradise).

Out in the Deep Periphery, the interplay between the Hanseatic League and the local powers in Nueva Castile stands out, particularly in the wake of the Wars of Reaving. Also, some of the new sub-factions and DP states featured in ISP3 are of interest for different reasons; the fractious pocket rivals in the Chainelane Isles, the Curse-afflicted yet independence-minded locals in the New Delphi Compact, or the peaceful yet semi-isolated inhabitants of the Providence Cluster.

So far as the Council of Six Clans go, the Shark/Foxes seem to have the most angles in play right now, though it will be interesting to see what FM:3145 says about the Raven Alliance.

Of the remaining Homeworld Clans, the big question mark is over when, or even if, we'll see their post-Reaving editions show up in the Inner Sphere; but if that happens, it would be interesting to see how the Star Adders might run a more SLDF/KLONDIKE-esque invasion, in contrast to how the Clans involved in Operation REVIVAL handled things back in the day.

And so far as corporations or other non-state entities go, it's got to be Interstellar Expeditions for me. I really like that organization, especially thanks to the recent sourcebook featuring them.

Edited by Nerroth, 04 June 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Nerroth, on 04 June 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Of the five Successor States, the once-and-future Free Worlds League stands out the most to me. I find it harder to sense the character of some of the other Houses, at least when you look at the maps. With the League, the presence of so many major and minor member states, along with all of the individual worlds added to the mix, makes things more interesting. Particularly so in the Republic Era and Dark Age, as the re-formed League hangs on a knife-edge between powerful neighbours from without and estranged locals in their own back yard.

This I find interesting - how is it harder to sense the "character" of the other Successor States, when the FWL is such a cultural melting pot that it does not really have any defining features other than ... well, that?
Not trying to sway you from your choice, of course, but perhaps you can elaborate a little. The FWL being this motley is, ironically, what always prevented me to regard it as being as interesting as the other larger factions.

I feel as you do about the Republic of the Sphere, though! Shame it didn't really work out due to all the pressure the Republic found itself subjected to... I'm really interested to see what will eventually come out of the Fortress. There have been some small signs and teasers, but they only made me even more curious ...

[Threat Doc]

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Dumped & left to their own devices means they were in regular communications & then the Homeworlds stopped talking to them all of a sudden, they had no idea what to do & then decided to hunker down in the IS, then decided to oppose the Clans.

They were ORDERED to. The Chain of command handed them a set of directives, which they complied with. Stop being an obstinate ***. You said the wrong thing, AGAIN, & the lore says so.

Alright, you believe what you're going to believe, from YOUR point-of-view, which I believe is ignorant, at least, and I'll believe what I'm going to believe, from MY point-of-view, which is correct. When out in the field, especially if communication is, at best, sporadic, a commander has to do what is right and best for their unit, in a real-world situation. Wolf's Dragoons were sent to spy; the Wolf Dragoons may have been ORDERED to remain in the Inner Sphere and attempt to help where possible, but there was NO DIRECTION beyond that. If that is not being left to your own devices, I don't know what else would be.

Technically, both of us are correct... they were ordered in the beginning, but had no specific orders, direction, or assistance beyond that. Of course, by the time of the new orders, they had enough cash they didn't need assistance and, had Jaime Wolf decided to, he could have renounced his Wolf heritage at any unseasonable moment, and then never told the Clans. He did not, but that does not mean he was under anyone's direct orders, only the general order he was given to help the IS, and he had no Clan doctrine to work from other than his basic training, and I could go on like this for a while, so I'll just cut it short and ask you to split the difference down the middle between lore not written AFTER his final orders and what reality would have forced him to accept and perform, which he tackled admirably ON HIS OWN!!!

Don't come back with another one... then you'll just look like a jackass pressing a bad position, and this is the last of the rope I will give you to hang yourself on.

[Jaroth Corbett]

WTF are you talking about? There is NO point of view. There is what happened as stated in the lore. Your problem has ALWAYS been you type **** that is NOT correct. Check your damn facts. AGAIN for the record, YOUR POV is wrong. My POV as you call it, that YOU say is ignorant is based off the lore, you know those people that MADE the universe. You are a damn *** who always manages to put your foot in your mouth. How many times have I had to correct you in the past?

Quote

She hesitated, then continued in a slightly subdued voice. "We received no more orders at that time. Our last run for supplies came in 3019. At that time, we were met by Khan Kerlin Ward of this Clan, who issued us a new set of orders."

Carol Leroux, sensing a chance for Natasha to defend herself, pressed for details. "And what were those orders?"

Natasha kept her voice even. "I may not be free to reveal them."

Phelan saw Cyrilla stiffen at that answer, and a number of Council members turned to one another, apparently commenting on the Widow's refusal to answer. The Loremaster's eyes narrowed angrily. "Natasha, you cannot refuse to answer."

Cyrilla stood and settled her earphone and microphone in place. "Loremaster, if I might be permitted. I was a Khan of the Wolf Clan at that time, elected to rule alongside my uncle. I believe that Natasha and the other Wolves in the Dragoons were under strict orders not to discuss their new mission with anyone from the Clans."

From the screen above, the huge image of the Loremaster's face looked down at Cyrilla. "It would seem, then, that we are at an impasse."

"Perhaps not," Cyrilla countered. "Though I was not present at the meeting, I was later privy to the orders given, with no promise of secrecy exacted from me. In fact, Kerlin did that precisely in the event a situation such as this might arise. He was proud of what the Dragoons had done. Were he here now, I am sure Kerlin would free Natasha from her vow of secrecy. He would want to use any and all means to defend the Dragoons' right to participate in breeding programs. Natasha is far more eloquent than I. Perhaps she would give voice to those orders."

Cyrilla bowed her head. "If she does not, I will be forced to report what I know."

Natasha nodded, and a wolfish grin began to spread across her features. "Khan Kerlin Ward charged us with four duties. The first was to continue our survey of the military strengths of the Successor States. He asked us to accelerate our pace, which we did. The second was to examine the problem of training Successor State units to our level of proficiency in 'Mech warfare."

"Third," she said, raising her voice above the din of whispers filling the chamber, "was to locate and secure a world where we could begin to manufacture OmniMechs. The Khan provided us with full technical data on the OmniMechs at that time as well as parts and prototypes for some of the more advanced items your WeaponMasters had created."

The shocked roar threatened to drown her out, but Natasha stood and spoke all the more forcefully. Even the hammering of the Loremaster's gavel did not stop her. "And his last order was to refuse to obey any Khan but himself. He wanted us to prepare the Inner Sphere for the invasion he felt was inevitable and he wanted no outside interference with his plan."

That seems like pretty specific orders to me. You do not know ANYTHING about the Clans. Time & time again you have proven this by making erroneous statements. Ask somebody or check legitimate sources before you continue to embarrass yourself. The only person who has ever hanged themselves is you & the amount of times you have done so, you give the rope makers a LOT of business. I have NEVER been in a bad position because I have the lore to back me. The only jackass here is you. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 04 June 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Nerroth]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 June 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

This I find interesting - how is it harder to sense the "character" of the other Successor States, when the FWL is such a cultural melting pot that it does not really have any defining features other than ... well, that?
Not trying to sway you from your choice, of course, but perhaps you can elaborate a little. The FWL being this motley is, ironically, what always prevented me to regard it as being as interesting as the other larger factions.

The thing to bear in mind with the League, old and new, is that there is "diversity" when it comes to the ethnic and cultural composition of its citizens, and "diversity" in terms of the often-fractious nature of its political system.

On the first score, you could say that certain sub-states, like Regulus or the Rim Commonality (the latter of which having once been under Regulan rule prior to the landmark Camlann vs. Free Worlds ruling) have certain groups that are prominent in terms of population numbers or cultural influence; but, as with the rest of the Inner Sphere, the kind of local and regional quirks you'd find in the League are, for the most part, only important to note for those who live on, or otherwise have business going to, a particular planet or region. Basically, if you live on Lesnovo or Tamarind, the kind of local cultural quirks on worlds like Regulus or Cerillos are most likely not going to keep you up at night.

On the second score, however, things are very important indeed, for one key reason; Parliament. Each individual world, or regional power, has a direct stake in the ebbs and flows of power on Atreus, even in time periods when strong Captains-General did their best to undercut Parliamentary authority. Prior to the Jihad, at least, it mattered whether or not one was pro-Marik (the house, not the realm), part of the "loyal opposition" (which House Cameron-Jones styled itself as), actively wanted to strike out on one's own (House Humphreys of Andurien), or simply wanted to be left alone without too much interference from the federal level (unless, of course, some local threat required the presence of the FWLM to keep pirates, raiders, or would-be occupiers at arm's length).

It comes as absolutely no surprise that, when the first League was disbanded in 3079, the largest succeeding states (as opposed to the Successor States) scrambled immediately to try and fill the power vacuum left behind; and, rather, that the regional identities were so strong as to allow these states (or, at least, some of them) to survive long enough to provide the backbone for the re-constituted league in 3139.

And to build up enough momentum to prevent them from going back in, when it comes to Regulus, Andurien, and the collection of former League worlds still maintaining their independence as of 3145.

In a sense, rather than thinking of the FWL as a melting pot or cultural mosaic or whatever, one could see it as the Star League in miniature. And much as the first Star League could use the Terran Hegemony as a fulcrum, the absence of which arguably compromising the second attempt, the original League could call upon the presence of the Marik Commonwealth to back it... something which the re-formed League has to do without, since most of Marik-Stewart space is now part of the Wolf Empire.

It remains to be seen if the new League can hold things together post-3145, and there is certainly no lack of threats to its continued existence from its old and new near neighbours. But regardless of how well it manages going forward, this oldest, yet newest, Successor State will have to get there in its own way, which makes the journey the most interesting (in my view) of any faced by the Great Houses in the run-up to the ilClan sourcebook.

Quote

I feel as you do about the Republic of the Sphere, though! Shame it didn't really work out due to all the pressure the Republic found itself subjected to... I'm really interested to see what will eventually come out of the Fortress. There have been some small signs and teasers, but they only made me even more curious ...

Field Manual: 3145 can't come out soon enough...

Edited by Nerroth, 04 June 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Splinters]

SLDF, the one true military to rule them all (and no, the clans don't count)!

-S

[Grey Black]

Khanahar, on 03 June 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

Bonus:

.............Lawful.......Neutral.......Chaotic
Good.....Davion......FRR..........Good Mercs (Wolf's Dragoons, Northwind Highlanders, etc.)
Neutral...ComStar...Steiner......True Mercs
Evil........Kurita........Liao..........WoB/Pirates

Lol Davion being Lawful Good. I'd actually put them as Lawful Evil, Lawful Neutral at best. Lawful Good would have to be the Knights of the Inner Sphere or St. Ives Compact. Liao is completely not evil, I would put them at worst at Lawful Neutral, same with Kurita. Steiner (Katherine Steiner-Davion excluded) is likely Neutral Good: inept, but their heart's in the right place most of the time. Marik: Chaotic Evil. No question. ComStar would be Neutral Evil, as they basically are in it for themselves with very little code of conduct in place. The WoBblies are allied with Marik so again, Chaotic Evil. The Clans are Lawful Stupid with the exception of the Blood Spirits and Ghost Bears. In fact, the only guys who are "good" without qualification and would be certain Mercs, such as Morgan Kell. Otherwise, everyone falls somewhere between Lawful and Chaotic Neutral with the exceptions of Marik and the WoBblies. Marik only because they are basically controlled by the WoB.

[Adridos]

What do you think of this chart, then?

[Firenze]

I say best faction is Mercs.

End :3

Most annoying are the Marys

[Khanahar]

Adridos, on 06 June 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

What do you think of this chart, then?

Uh.... I was kinda spitballing when I did mine, but I still like it a lot better...

Khanahar, on 03 June 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

.............Lawful.......Neutral.......Chaotic
Good.....Davion......FRR..........Good Mercs (Wolf's Dragoons, Northwind Highlanders, etc.)
Neutral...ComStar...Steiner......True Mercs
Evil........Kurita........Liao..........WoB/Pirates

The one you quoted has all kinds of problems... lobbing in all the Clans together when Wolf is kind Neutral Good and Falcon more Lawful Evil is already a stretch. Liao and Steiner are, at a minimum, switched (I sense some FedCom civil war era vilification going on.) Oh, and the massacre was helped along a fair bit by Jenner.

[Adridos]

How can you call Northwind Highlanders good mercs in the not performance related meaning of the word?

Northwind Highlanders: A small mercenary army with their own landhold, which has somehow managed to survive contract-abuse which hamstrung BOTH the Capellan Confederationand their enemies, the Federated Suns. It remains to be seen if they will contract with the Blakists, although they are likely running out of factions to betray.

[Kyone Akashi]

Adridos, on 06 June 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

What do you think of this chart, then?

It drips of faction bias. But that's the problem with most such morality charts.

Apart from morality being largely subjective and dependent on an individual's point of view, it is also obvious that this one attempts to focus on single persons or events instead of culture - disregarding that all the factions had all sorts of personalities over the span of the many centuries they existed.
In this, the chart even betrays itself. How can Comstar be "True Neutral", when the Word of Blake was born from it? Did somebody just throw a switch and people went crazy overnight?

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 06 June 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Exilyth]

Of course, the capellan confederation is the best faction; and Romano Liao the best leader we've ever had! ... erm, I mean,
go to sarna.net, read about the factions (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Factions) and make up your own mind. All factions in BT have something going for and against them.

[Loganauer]

............................Lawful..................................Neutral...........................Chaotic...
Good........Republic of the Sphere...........Warden Clans...............Some Mercs
Neutral....Rasalhague Republic...............Comstar.........................Other Mercs
Evil..........Great Houses............................Crusader Clans............Word of Blake

Fixed for you guys.

Edited by Loganauer, 30 September 2015 - 11:29 PM.

[Rock God]

Loganauer, on 28 September 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

............................Lawful..................................Neutral...........................Chaotic...
Good........Republic of the Sphere...........Warden Clans...............Some Mercs
Neutral....Rasalhague Republic...............Comstar.........................Other Mercs
Evil..........Great Houses............................Crusader Clans............Word of Blake

Fixed for you guys.

Actually, the books clearly show that, at a certain given point of history, usually the one that the author wants you to root for his heroes, someone in a Great House is going to be a good guy. Hanse Davion, son, and grandson are unarguably good guys. Omi Kurita, her brother and father also. Her grandad is an insane ******* at the end of his life, but nonetheless driven by giri. Romano Liao is insane, so is her dad, but her sister is a good guy, as Kai Allard-Liao is. Kali is insane, and her brother is a true leader in the Machiavellian sense.
ComStar pre-schism is evil because it prevents humans from reclaiming tech, and Word of Blake is dangerous because its a Mech-backed religion, and a very intolerant one at that, as the nuclear-weapon-kerfuffle with the Knights of Thomas Marik showed.

My opinion:
The core issue with the Inner Sphere is its belief in birthright (nobles, Houses...), and the core issue with Clans is their belief in classes. Both stem down to a certain take on DNA versus education, that even our own culture still has issues with.

[GonaDie]

Marack Drock, on 16 November 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

There is no such thing as a good Battletech faction. They are all just different layers of sh!t. Your job is to find the layer of sh!t you like and that is your sh!t.

Mercs are not sh!t. They fight for the right thing.Which is money.

[CyclonerM]

Please, keep discussion civil without personal attacks.

Some things in the lore are purposedly described/told by different point of views so that there is not one "right" way to see them.
However, even if my lore is a bit rusty, i do remember that the Dragoons were indeed under explicit orders by Khan Kerlin Ward to cut all comms with the Homeworlds etc. as Jaroth pointed out.

However right one may be, however, there is no need to shout or insult other people, quineg? If you really must, please do not post and fight in a Circle of Equals