46 replies to this topic

[UnseenFury]

I'm writing this.

Been in this game since the start of July, I have Legendary Package as you can see, like it's not enough, I donated more money. This game have giant amount of bugs and glitches (I even found out that framerate turning issue was related to high mouse DPI settings and it was fixed thanks to me, game was unplayable with it) but I

haven't made a single thread since the closed beta forums were closed and devs asked us to make forums clear and civil as possible. Haven't complain about anything in the game, I always adapt and prevail.

DO YOU ENJOYING SPIDER'S MID-AIR EXPLOSIONS?

But now I just can not be quiet, I've MASTERED Jenners like 3 times with all the wipes that were back then, I killed near 100 atlai in it, it was my favorite mech... Until ECM came. Now basically all the light mechs that don't have ECM are worthless

Here are my stats at the moment of writing this -

I don't fap on stats, if there is need to go die on our base while there is going cap race I'm always doing it. Wins and having fun in the game for me are more important than k/d ratio.

I have 23 mechs, I have 4 Mastered mechs and 4 Elite that are almost Mastered. I play all the classes and I know almost every aspect of the game. My average game is 3-4 kills, 600 damage, my best games are 7-8 kills 1000 damage, 270k c-bills, 2000xp.

I'm a nerd at computer games, I know (I remember on the fly all 100+ bugs, glitches and exploits in Battlefield 3).


PGI, your game is broken at the moment due to a lag shield (which you promised to fix next month reverting the netcode), ECM lights swarm and streaks ('m not even mentions giant amount of bugs).

I started leveling a new account for a friend of mine (a new player) 2 days ago. There is the stats -


I don't fap on stats, if there is need to go die on our base while there is going cap race I'm always doing it. Wins and having fun in the game for me are more important than k/d ratio.

Above stats are 3-4 games on trial mechs and the rest 50 (!) are on a ECM+streaks Commando, I ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED like 20 other light mechs and they didn't even made my armor ORANGE, I was running circles around enemy's heavies and assaults without any fear.

You killed the whole point of LIGHT mechs and DIVERSITY in light class.

Do you like how non-ECM spiders, commandos and ravens and a Jenner are getting absolutely r*ped? If you choose non-ECM light mech you are a drag down for your team.

Picking non-ECM mech NOW is a SUICIDE if you are going to play it as a light, not sticking with heavies for protection.



SIMPLE FIXES:

1a. Make it so you can lock streaks on a ECM mech inside 100 meters, so you still have ECM for stealth as it should be BUT CAN NOT be invincible running around in front of the whole enemy team. (ECM+streaks mech can still bombard you with streaks running in 270m circle which obviously requires more skill).

1b. (I like it more) Make that the streaks have to get lock for each volley fired (You have to get a new lock for each volley) Like it is in TT. Make ECM bonus for teammates range smaller.

2. FIX the netcode and make EUROPEAN servers.

HERO Commando.

Why it's not a ECM capable mech with 4 missile hardpoints? NOW THAT WOULD BE A HERO.
When now it's useless.


P.S. I can dominate abusing this system but I want to play enjoyable and balanced game and I hope you too.

P.P.S. Sorry for my English.

Edited by Paran01ac, 17 January 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[Grimlox]

Could you imagine the P2W crying if Death's Knell was a 4 Missile hardpoint ECM touting hero mech?

I agree that non-ECM lights are utterly painful to run right now.

I just tried putting a XL295 engine in a Raven 3L I had and it was absolutely ridiculous how survivable the thing is and how easy to kill other lights especially the non-ecm lights. I felt dirty using it, but I really just want to max out the pilot tree and see what the speed tweak is like haha.

[Evinthal]

I agree with this 100%.

I miss the days I could take my founders Jenner out and run around with 4 Medium Lasers and 2 SRM-4s and do really well against a wide variety of targets. Hell I didn't even have the biggest engine on it that I could. I packed a 245 XL, using it as a heavy strike scout. Get behind someone and rip into their back armor.

I haven't touched my founders Jenner in months because it is pointless to use anything but a Raven or Commando with ECM. Not even the Spider with ECM is worth using because it lacks the ability to use streaks, unless you are running it in tandem with an ECM Commando or Raven.

I've been meaning to write something up over the last few days but I really wanted to figure out how I would say it, and try to say it as nicely as possible, as I know the vitriol and flame fests get annoying for the developers to read/hear about so let me start off by saying this.

Thank you for making this game. I see a lot of potential here and I really really really want to see this game succeed and grow even more. I also know programming, and balancing is no easy task and thank you developers for the long hours you put in.

And now for the criticism.

ECM - Lets face it, ECM just does too much. There I said it. I've been holding off a long time on saying it and even trying to defend it in a few posts, but the simple fact of the mater is that it seriously does too much.

To be specific here is what I do like about ECM: It negates Artemis, and NARC as it should, and it eliminates the bonus from TAG that is being used inside of the 180 meter bubble, and that it makes LRMs take longer to lock on. These are all well and good.

What I don't like: Streaks being completely negated by ECM unless there is an ECM in the area to counter it. As much as I loathe and hated the Streak Catapults, ECM basically took them out back behind the wood shed and had it's way with them. Also being unable to target a 'mech under the effect of a hostile ECM from outside the 180 meter bubble unless you were within 200 meters. Just no. Why even bother with all the sensor range increase modules when ECM just says "Hi, I'm the Federated Suns, nice to meet you Capellan Confederation, I'll be taking those planets..." to them and gives them the finger.
I know things are still being tweaked and net code/lag shield is the next big issue that you all are looking at, but this one really needs to be addressed, and SOON.

I don't know how hard it would be to do, but I humbly suggest that streaks should still be able to be fired, but if they are within or their line of fire passes through an enemy ECM that they fire like normal SRMs. I.E. they dead fire, without lock. This would still soften the blow from streaks but still allow them to be useful in situations where ECM is heavily present.

[The Mecha Streisand]

Grimlox, on 17 January 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Could you imagine the P2W crying if Death's Knell was a 4 Missile hardpoint ECM touting hero mech?

I agree that non-ECM lights are utterly painful to run right now.

I just tried putting a XL295 engine in a Raven 3L I had and it was absolutely ridiculous how survivable the thing is and how easy to kill other lights especially the non-ecm lights. I felt dirty using it, but I really just want to max out the pilot tree and see what the speed tweak is like haha.

150.2 with speed tweak. I loved it. I've cranked mine back down to a 245XL since, in order to be more survivable against other SSRM + ECM mechs. But it feels so SLOW now, at 120-something... :'(

[wwb23]

I've dropped with Para in at least 50 games. He really is as good (if not better) as his stats say.

That said, I agree 100% with what he says here. I currently only own two lights. One is an ECM/Streak Commando (because if you do serious play, you HAVE to have this Mech). The other is my founder's Jenner. I LOVED my Jenner back in closed Beta. It was great. I haven't even seriously contemplated using it since ECM came out since I see it as detrimental to my teammates. Now, if I run a light, I run my Commando, not even because I really enjoy it, but because it's basically what you have to run to be able to have a chance of winning!

The Devs really need to do some changes with ECM to make it closer to TT. Standard ECM should not be as powerful as it is. This ECM is working more like the more advanced (by several decades!) Angel ECM. Additionally, ECM should be able to be mounted on ANY Mech, if you want it there.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!! fix this issue before you ruin te game. At this rate, ECM will prevent people from utilizing other chasis since they can't be survivable!

Oh, and, I'm not going to even get started on the "lag shield" issue as I would be forced to talk for days on that one!

[Dr Killinger]

As a heavy and assault pilot, this also applies to me when I face a light. Basically, if it has no ECM, you need Streaks or they're untouchable. IF they have ECM, you're boned. No question. I realize that an Atlas will struggle to swat a Jenner circling him, but I got good at countering them and eventually got it down to a 50/50 ratio of who will win between my Atlas and a good Jenner in a 1v1 situation. Now, the lag shield has gotten so great that every one of my mechs with missile slots will invariably mount SSRMs. This is killing my variety, not only lights'!

And like I said, ECM light in a 1v1 is ridiculous As the game stands, we're too dependent on SSRMs, but it's because it's damn near impossible to hit with anything else!

[Mahws]

Fixing the ECM alone won't cut it, it'll just turn
ECM+SSRM > All other lights
into
SSRM > All other lights


Any light mech without 2 missile hard points will still be useless because SSRM will still utterly dominate the game. The only difference will be that heavy mechs will now pack them more often as well. The thing that makes ECM so imbalanced is that it guarantees use of an extremely imbalanced weapon, fix SSRM and you go a long way to fixing ECM.

[UnseenFury]

Thank you guys for your kind words and understanding of the problem. Thanks wwb23 for referring to me as a good pilot.

PGI dropping Spiders and Hero Commandos when they are completely outclassed by ECM+streaks madness.

How do you think the issue can be fixed?

Make ECM work only outside of 200 meters, so inside of 200 meters it's just a normal mech?

ECM only provides bonuses for a mech equipping it?

Streaks must be locked on for each volley, make their spread even wider?

What are your suggestions? What do you think?



I saw devs playing the game and I played 2 games with Garth Erlam and Kyle, but do the devs understand the problem?

Edited by Paran01ac, 18 January 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Quote

I agree, Light mechs have no diversity that was killed by streaks+ECM lag shielded lights

ROFL, like there ever was any diversity to begin with.

Anybody remember the gauscats, streakcats, Atlas missile boats and small laser Hunchbacks?

[Taizan]

Paran01ac, on 18 January 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

What are your suggestions? What do you think?

The problem with lights & ECM feeling OP is imo that the problem is intertwined with so many other issues. Netcode, weapon balancing, TT vs. MWO, map size and the typical tendency of playing FotM builds being widespread. The spider is probably the "weakest" light atm, but we cannot have 4 mech chassis and all being on the same level. Just compare the Awesome to the other assaults, its almost in the same position as the spider imho.

Quote

I saw devs playing the game and I played 2 games with Garth Erlam and Kyle, but do the devs understand the problem?

I think they have a decent opinion on the issue, but need to wait off for other things to manifest themselves (mainly netcode) before anything gets touched.

[UnseenFury]

Stormwolf, on 18 January 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

ROFL, like there ever was any diversity to begin with.

Anybody remember the gauscats, streakcats, Atlas missile boats and small laser Hunchbacks?

• Right now I have dual ac/20, 2srm6s&4ssrms2s cats in my mech bays. 6 streaks cat was LAMER's thing but I never really struggled with it, I was bombarding it outside of 270m with medium lasers.
  
• 9 las hunchback was ok for me because everyone would focus fire on its RT and it would die pretty quickly (his speed was ridiculous before though).
  
• LRM never bothered me, I was just taking cover behind things and I think ahead of how to move around the map so there is always cover for me.
  
• Gauss cat is only a sniper, takes some skill to shoot with it inside 50 meters because of the weapon convergences.

= There was always a diversity for a SKILLED player. Until ECM.

Taizan, on 18 January 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

The problem with lights & ECM feeling OP is imo that the problem is intertwined with so many other issues. Netcode, weapon balancing, TT vs. MWO, map size and the typical tendency of playing FotM builds being widespread. The spider is probably the "weakest" light atm, but we cannot have 4 mech chassis and all being on the same level. Just compare the Awesome to the other assaults, its almost in the same position as the spider imho.

This is not the case, you can match other mechs in the Awesome pretty well, especially if you are a skilled player that knows about a distance, not a BAD PLAYER that always going close range fights inside 50 meters.

Now pick a Spider.
Go scout something.
Get r*ped by streaks+ECM lights swarm.
???????
Lights are broken.

Edited by Paran01ac, 18 January 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[Psikez]

I have thought about this a lot, read a lot of threads. Get a lot of crap like this

Stormwolf, on 18 January 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

ROFL, like there ever was any diversity to begin with.

Anybody remember the gauscats, streakcats, Atlas missile boats and small laser Hunchbacks?

which can be hard to sift through. And to address it specifically can you offer anything but vitriol and snark?

There will always be a mech in a class that is generally better but also should be generally beatable by another mech in the same class, let alone up or down.

As it stands, as a drop commander I will not allow our lights to play anything but 3Ls. The ability to use and shut down enemy mechs opposing streaks or at the very least leave it even is a linchpin for the rest of our group. I don't need mediums with ECM, I don't really need assaults with ECM (although I prefer it in this instance) but having lights with streaks and ECM is paramount to a competitive victory because I know my opposing drop commander is going to be fielding them if hes worth his salt.

I find this and of itself is a problem and dulls the game down when no other mech has a real chance. Now intertwine this with the netcode and lack of collisions I feel I have no choice in the matter if I want my drop to be competitive.

Compare this with the medium class where I can take a cicada, hunchback OR a centurion and feel comfortable.

Compare this to the heavy class where I can take a dragon, catapault, OR cataphract and feel comfortable.

Compare this to the assault class where I can at least have a choice between a gunboat stalker or a tank atlas (the model for the awesome frankly sucks).

The netcodes being worked on, and from what I gather from snippets of dev talk and stated priorities it is the #1 concern right now. We're use to seeing incremental changes but this is a huge issue and requires a very taxing rewrite of large amounts of existing code. I imagine we'll see one huge patch that fixes most of the issues (and probably causes a few smaller ones of its own) but such is the course of a beta. (blah blah release, yeah I call foul, I've participated in a lot of betas and this is the first open beta that actually is something other than a marketing gimmick. Yes they're taking money and yes its something of a risk but nobodys forcing you to spend a dime)

Streaks in general need work. In my opinion (READ OPINION) they need to be set so the lock-on window is less forgiving, you need to relock after every shot, and they need to target a random component regardless of the targets movement. When under the influence of straight disrupt ECM with no counter they need to be able to be fired as a regular SRM 2.

ECM doesn't need an AOE effect. Its quite powerful enough to affect only the mech using it. At the very least it needs a range reduction to 90m (for ally cover) so entire fights aren't constantly on ECM blackout.

The raven 3L needs something done to it. My main opinion is it should get a maximum engine nerf. Theres no reason this one mech should be the best at every single role a light is supposed to do (aside from jump jetting which is honestly of dubious importance). This one mech varfiant is the best striker, the best scout, and the best EWAR specialist. You quite literally are better at nothing playing any other light mech let alone even another variant of the raven.

At any rate these are my humble opinions in support of Parano1ac.

[MangoBogadog]

I agree, the diversity of light mechs their weapons and what they carry is practically zero right now. Every light mech that is not an ECM build with streaks is essentially a draw back on their team.

When I am using a Jenner and I find Raven 3L with 2 ssrm2's it normally takes me 2 - 3 laser volleys to actually find their hit box and work out where I need to shoot. By this time I've had, on average about 15-20 points of damage on my CT assuming the raven pilot has seen me also. So by the time I have started doing any effective damage to a location I've lost my CT armour already. Is it worth taking a light without streaks? Not if I want to fight other lights imo.

Seeing that streaks are so effective against lights (because of lag shield) a light mech also needs to take ECM to counter being shot by them. ECM does that almost perfectly and can only be effectively countered by another ECM, so a team is forced to take ECM whether they want to or not to just counter the ECM that you assume the enemy will take.
ECM also does a lot more than that, it hides all your nearby friendlies, jams enemy targeting/information/comms. At what price?
2 slots and 1.5 tons.

There is no reason not to take it right now, meaning you got to play with a couple of mech chassis as lights.

A few things I do not understand... why does ECM not block friendly comms/targeting/information?
Why does TAG laser not work inside the bubble at least with the mech that is pointing it, why would a laser beam be effected by ECM bubble?

Personally I feel that streaks hit too often and hit CT too often, a while back there was a change where they missed more often and I felt that was the level they should be at, considering you do not have to aim to use them.

A change I would like to see, to reward good aim would be that streaks target the section of the mech that was being aimed at when the trigger was pulled, if the mech was not being aimed at when the streaks were fired they would have far less chance of even hitting.

While I don't think BAP should be a direct counter to ECM I think it should have a small impact at least, for example reducing the lock on time far more for ECM carrying mechs, maybe reducing their bubble range to 100 meters, or still being able to send out targeting comms to allies NOT make you able to lock on.

TAG imo should make the mech carrying it be able to target the ECM mechs even inside the ECM bubble. You can not send out that information to allies (possibly without carrying BAP) but you now have a hard counter for ECM.

AMS should counter streaks slightly better imo, the ranges for AMS being able to take out streaks should be reduced by half again.

This way I think you start to have choices to make, try taking everything and your loosing out, big time, on tonnage. So ECM mechs can't have it all their own way without having to make big sacrifices in weapon load out, armour and/or speed.
Other non ECM mechs then have ways to counter streaks better (not just more ECM) and can counter the multiple effects of ECM with TAG and BAP.

tl/dr:
BAP can transmit targeting info to friendlies inside ECM bubble, but will not give you a lock.
TAG can target enemy ECM mechs inside bubble and give you a lock, but will not transmit targeting info to allies.
Streaks target the component aimed for when fired, no aim, much less chance to hit.
AMS can take out streaks at a much closer range, maybe starting from 70-90m plus.

The netcode is another issue in its own right, but you do have to take it into consideration when talking about lights and streaks unfortunately.

[Psikez]

Taizan, on 18 January 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

The problem with lights & ECM feeling OP is imo that the problem is intertwined with so many other issues. Netcode, weapon balancing, TT vs. MWO, map size and the typical tendency of playing FotM builds being widespread. The spider is probably the "weakest" light atm, but we cannot have 4 mech chassis and all being on the same level. Just compare the Awesome to the other assaults, its almost in the same position as the spider imho.


I think they have a decent opinion on the issue, but need to wait off for other things to manifest themselves (mainly netcode) before anything gets touched.

I don't think we're arguing in general for lights and ECM being op, its more specific in that lights you have little to no reason to try and bring any mech besides a 3L to a fight. I would be letting my group down if I allowed anything else and that just makes me sad.

Of the other classes we allow and try many different variants of most of the mechs with vastly different loadouts and strategies. With in the light class my option is 3Ls or more 3Ls.

Edited by Psikez, 18 January 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[G4M3R]

Just wish they would bring back collisions, that would fix about 75% of the terrible light mech pilots right now that are experiencing a golden age. Nothing like Alpha-ing a Raven that just ran into your leg.

[Apoc1138]

European servers are not the issue, I play with plenty of Euro players and between us our ping is usually in the 110 - 130ms range - which would be totally acceptable for normal gaming, if the netcode weren't so awful
in fact that is around the same range I get to most Euro servers in other games

fix netcode first, then look at server locations

Edited by Apoc1138, 18 January 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[Psikez]

Apoc1138, on 18 January 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

European servers are not the issue, I play with plenty of Euro players and between us our ping is usually in the 110 - 130ms range - which would be totally acceptable for normal gaming, if the netcode weren't so awful
in fact that is around the same range I get to most Euro servers in other games

fix netcode first, then look at server locations

This I agree with, my friends here at MWO would be vastly less diverse if we were segregated.

[GODzillaGSPB]

So...you say you don't fap to them stats, right? Well...if you don't, then at least I will, you mind?

[Taizan]

Paran01ac, on 18 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

This is not the case, you can match other mechs in the Awesome pretty well, especially if you are a skilled player that knows about a distance, not a BAD PLAYER that always going close range fights inside 50 meters.

Almost in the same position. Sure I can kill other mechs with an Awesome, its just a bit weakier in comparison with the other two assault chassis. A skilled pilot will always get the best out of any chassis.

Just as some players (me included btw.) like playing the Awesome instead of just bringing along another D-DC, some players will enjoy playing the Spider instead of bringing along the Raven-3L.

"Every Jack will find his Jill." (Hope the translation makes sense)

[Psikez]

Taizan, on 18 January 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Almost in the same position. Sure I can kill other mechs with an Awesome, its just a bit weakier in comparison with the other two assault chassis. A skilled pilot will always get the best out of any chassis.

Just as some players (me included btw.) like playing the Awesome instead of just bringing along another D-DC, some players will enjoy playing the Spider instead of bringing along the Raven-3L.

"Every Jack will find his Jill." (Hope the translation makes sense)

As I've been bringing the spiders out since tuesday...god do I love that mech even when I get blown apart by a streak ball 300m in the air...