26 replies to this topic

[sirjackinthebox]

I was moding a mech when i realized, thers standard Heat Sinks that take one space and cool at standard rate... then thers what you are calling "Double Heat Sinks"... " thies have nothing to do with DOUBLE" they cool less than double the heat, and they take up TRIPLE the space... I know ther are three stages of Heat Sink, the Standard, the Double, and Clan Double Heat Sink and all thies by the book do just what they say or are what they say, they disipate double the heat, or take up double the space...

[Xeren KelDar]

Tabletop Stats
Heat Sink 1 ton, 1 crit, dumps 1 heat per turn
IS Double Heat Sink 1 ton, 3 crits, sinks 2 heat per turn
C Double Heat Sink 1 ton, 2 crits, sinks 2 heat per turn

The double heat sink is triple the crit for the Inner Sphere, always has been. The Double refers to the fact it dumps twice the heat, not the size of the heat sink.

In MWO the engine heatsinks (ones that come stock with the engine and dont cost you tonnage or crits) operate at the full efficiency while External DHS operate at 1.4 (as opposed to the 1.0 for normal heat sinks). Yes external DHS take up 3 critical slots just like in table top because this is IS tech.

Hope that helps to clarify some things, there's other topics around that go into more detail of how heat works in MWO.

[Lycan]

Might want to try a search next time. The Heat Sink/Heat Scale topic has been discussed in length in multiple threads.

That being said, in a nut shell, the Devs decided that true-to-the-lore Double Heat sinks would "break the game" and make heat management a "non-issues" as well as making standard heat sinks "obsolete" (which, in my opinion, they should as the tech is better).

Anyway, there are so many things wrong with the dev's way of thinking on this that I'm not going to go into it.

My advice would be to search for and read up those threads that already discuss it.

[HC Harlequin]

If you only shoot 1 time every 10 seconds the same amount of heat that a true DHS will dissipate is dissipated. Not to mention that the heat scale doesn't start off at -X heat. It starts at 0. If you don't know what that means then you don't understand TT heat.

[HTTP Error 400]

HC Harlequin, on 17 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

If you only shoot 1 time every 10 seconds the same amount of heat that a true DHS will dissipate is dissipated. Not to mention that the heat scale doesn't start off at -X heat. It starts at 0. If you don't know what that means then you don't understand TT heat.

Why should a video game player have to understand TT heat to understand how the video game they are playing works?

If this game is limited to those that know TT rules, then make a request for everyone this affects to leave the game. If not, the game needs to be understandable by the new players that will be the ones that keep it alive.

Edited by HTTP Error 400, 18 January 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[yashmack]

essentially the devs found that if they used true double heat dissipation that the light mechs could easily run around with multiple large lasers doing non stop alpha strikes and never over heat, made them super OP
According to Paul even at 1.5 the heat dissipation was still very ridiculous for the light mechs and they could still run around do constant alphas and overheating maybe once out of 15 alphas, pretty ridiculous stuff

[Dr Killinger]

It's all balance and design decisions. Don't get caught up on the name. The numbers behind the scenes will likely change in the future anyway, and "one-point-four heat sinks" doesn't sound very snappy.

[MustrumRidcully]

yashmack, on 18 January 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

essentially the devs found that if they used true double heat dissipation that the light mechs could easily run around with multiple large lasers doing non stop alpha strikes and never over heat, made them super OP
According to Paul even at 1.5 the heat dissipation was still very ridiculous for the light mechs and they could still run around do constant alphas and overheating maybe once out of 15 alphas, pretty ridiculous stuff

Unless you have seen some posts that I haven'T seen, this isn't correct

Their boogey man builds didn't use large lasers. They were either talking about Jenners or Cicadas boating Medium Lasers.

And the implementation still benefits the Jenners and Cicadas of the world the most, since the first 10 engine heat sinks are "true" double heat sinks. That's great for everyone, but the impact of 1.4 DHS is primarily felt by heavy and assault mechs, not lights or mediums. So maybe Jenners and Cicadas did "narrowly escape" becoming OP, but the heavy and assault mechs did benefit considerably less, making them weaker compared to lights. Which in the current state of the game is absolutely not needed.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 January 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[Hellboy561]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 January 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

And the implementation still benefits the Jenners and Cicadas of the world the most, since the first 10 engine heat sinks are "true" double heat sinks. That's great for everyone, but the impact of 1.4 DHS is primarily felt by heavy and assault mechs, not lights or mediums. So maybe Jenners and Cicadas did "narrowly escape" becoming OP, but the heavy and assault mechs did benefit considerably less, making them weaker compared to lights. Which in the current state of the game is absolutely not needed.

This is what i believe to be true. As an assault pilot it means that i have to FILL my mech with "double" heat sinks because they aren't actually double. Meanwhile my Commando runs on basically the stock number of heat sinks and runs like a dream. My Atlas on the other hand has 18-20 double heat sinks and i can overheat it if i'm not paying attention. Bit annoying really seeing as the heavier classes will need more heat sinks to actually run because they have the most hardpoints and allotted tonnage for armaments but i can't use half the things i would like because my Mech is full of double heat sinks.

[DrBlue62]

Double heat sinks, Engine and not average just under or just above 2.0 with doubled Basics. I'd prefer it stayed like that.

Couple of examples

Atlas RS: 19 Doubles 20+12.6 = 32.6 Basic 32.6 x 1.075 = 35.04 2xBasic 32.6 x 1.15 = 37.49
'Phract 3D: 13 Doubles 20+4.2 = 24.2 Basic 24.2 x 1.075 = 26.01 2xBasic 24.2 x 1.15 = 27.8
Atlas DDC: 17 Doubles 20+9.8 = 29.8 Basic 29.8 x 1.075 = 32.03 2xBasic 29.8 x 1.16 = 34.27

Really the Mech models don't even matter. For best DHS performance try to stick at least a 250 in a mech which is usually easily done aside from Cbill expenses. With 20 DHS, 10 engine and 10 external you get 39.1, 0.9 or one single from being true doubles if you have doubled Basics. Most mechs that do have DHS don't get to or past 20 DHS.

While the average player won't get doubled Basics for their favored mechs or even most favorite mech type, Double Heat Sinks are in the game.

[dario03]

Xeren KelDar, on 17 January 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

In MWO the engine heatsinks (ones that come stock with the engine and dont cost you tonnage or crits) operate at the full efficiency while External DHS operate at 1.4 (as opposed to the 1.0 for normal heat sinks). Yes external DHS take up 3 critical slots just like in table top because this is IS tech.

What about the larger engines that let you add heatsinks without taking up crit slots but do add weight? Are those 2x or 1.4x?

[DrBlue62]

dario03, on 18 January 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

What about the larger engines that let you add heatsinks without taking up crit slots but do add weight? Are those 2x or 1.4x?

Slotted Engine Double Heat Sinks are 1.4

Edited by DrBlue62, 18 January 2013 - 03:50 AM.

[stjobe]

There are three types of DHS:
* Engine DHS that come with the engine; these are true 2.0.
* Slotted DHS that you put into an engine but don't come with the engine; these are 1.4
* External DHS that you put outside of the engine; these are 1.4

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 18 January 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

There are three types of DHS:
* Engine DHS that come with the engine; these are true 2.0.
* Slotted DHS that you put into an engine but don't come with the engine; these are 1.4
* External DHS that you put outside of the engine; these are 1.4

I gotta laugh. The same heat sinks I put in my engine I also put in my Mech yet they don't work as well? There are a lot of things I will take at face value. but this is the stupidest thing that has been implemented in the game.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

I gotta laugh. The same heat sinks I put in my engine I also put in my Mech yet they don't work as well? There are a lot of things I will take at face value. but this is the stupidest thing that has been implemented in the game.

Well, you can look at it this way if you want: The Engine heat-sinks are factory-installed and part of the engine. The Slotted and External heat-sinks are after-market add-ons and not as effective.

Balance-wise, it means that a smaller engine has less 2.0 heat-sinks than a bigger one (the break-off point is 250 rating, which has 10 full 2.0 heat-sinks, any lesser-rated engines have fewer 2.0 heat-sinks).

Engines with ratings under 250 have to put External heat-sinks in to reach the required 10, engines with ratings over 250 can slot heat-sinks into the engine at no crit-slot cost.

E.g. my COM-1B with a 195-rated engine needs to add three heat-sinks to get to 10, so it has 7 * 2.0 + 3 * 1.4 = 18.2 single heat-sink equivalent instead of 20 if all heat-sinks were 2.0 - a 9% difference.

My CN9-D with a 300-rated engine can add two heat sinks into the engine without paying for crit slots, so it gets 10 * 2.0 + 2 * 1.4 = 22.8 single heat-sink equivalent instead of 24 - a 5% difference.

[kilgor]

The pilot skills is what bring the heat sinks almost up to par, as DrBlue62 indicated. So, yes, 10 in the engine and 10 external with no pilot skill is 34 heat dissipated, but with 3 chassis levelled up in Basic for the extra 15% heat dissipation, it's 39.1 heat dissipated vs 40 heat dissipated in TT. So, if you want double heat sink effect across the board, get 3 of the same 'Mech chassis levelled up.

[Flapdrol]

The most stupid thing is the engine ones actually count double, this means it's a straight up upgrade on every mech. Only purpose it has is making all the mechs 1500000 cbills more expensive.

[Nightfangs]

sirjackinthebox, on 17 January 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

I was moding a mech when i realized, thers standard Heat Sinks that take one space and cool at standard rate... then thers what you are calling "Double Heat Sinks"... " thies have nothing to do with DOUBLE" they cool less than double the heat, and they take up TRIPLE the space... I know ther are three stages of Heat Sink, the Standard, the Double, and Clan Double Heat Sink and all thies by the book do just what they say or are what they say, they disipate double the heat, or take up double the space...

Well, the problem is quite old:
PGI has the exclusive oppinion that 2.0 DHS would be overpowered.
As the ultimate example, one of them said: "A Jenner could core an Atlas in 5 seconds."
Therefore, they changed the DHS to 2.0(internal)/1.4(external engine and external).
Ironically, this benefits light mechs even further compared to the same value for internal and external heatsinks!
But what do we know, we are just beta-testers and so our oppinion isn't good for anything anyway.

[CDLord HHGD]

HTTP Error 400, on 18 January 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Why should a video game player have to understand TT heat to understand how the video game they are playing works?

If this game is limited to those that know TT rules, then make a request for everyone this affects to leave the game. If not, the game needs to be understandable by the new players that will be the ones that keep it alive.

You don't have to know TT rules. But if you are going to come on the forum and ask technical questions, it's good to research a bit and whether you like it or not, this game is based on TT. Does it follow those rules exactly? No, but it was the beginning.

[FiveDigits]

kilgor, on 18 January 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

The pilot skills is what bring the heat sinks almost up to par, as DrBlue62 indicated. So, yes, 10 in the engine and 10 external with no pilot skill is 34 heat dissipated, but with 3 chassis levelled up in Basic for the extra 15% heat dissipation, it's 39.1 heat dissipated vs 40 heat dissipated in TT. So, if you want double heat sink effect across the board, get 3 of the same 'Mech chassis levelled up.

The thing is pilot skills should offer additional benefits - not be a crutch to reach base line effectiveness ... at least in my opinion.