47 replies to this topic

[headbasher]

You could make it like this maybe

you have to target someone to get it to explode into fragments and have it set to auto explode at X meters in front of the target. This way you would be able to lead your target


and when you dont have someone targeted it would just at like a normal ac10(?) maybe with a tad less damage or something.



Not good with words before my coffee if that didnt come out clear

[CheebaMech]

Voted yes; but actually just want a choice on ammo types, cluster or solid shot, that would be ideal imo.

[PapajIGC]

There are 3 things I feel would be good fixes for the LB-10X's.

• Make it a true-to-lore Flak round.
  
• Tighten the sprea by at least 25% (possibly 33% if you're under maximum effective range of 540).
  
• Increase the damage to 15 (1.5 per projectile) and leave everything else the same

2 and 3 kind of go hand in hand in the sense that because the spread is so terrible (I'm talking the size of a Raven at < 270 range) the overall damage you do to a particular section of a mech is worse than that of an AC-2. So increasing the damage I don't feel would unbalance the weapon at all, nor tightening the spread, at least if you're really close. Obviously a buck shot shouldn't be pinpoint accurate far away, but it also shouldn't be near useless at extremely close ranges.

[GhostRuhster]

Odanan, on 18 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

If they make the "shogun" pellets to almost do not spread, the weapon could be useful at any range.

PS: adding the option for regular ammo to the LBX/10 is wrong because the LBX/10 is better than the AC/10 in all stats (weight, crits and range), and it would make the AC/10 obsolete.

Excpet that in the TT the LB-X CAN switch round types. What saved them from being obsolete was the introduction of specialty types of ammo that could only be used in standard A/Cs (and the later Light A/Cs). Choices included Armor Piercing, Flechette, Tracer, and Precision ammo, which made standard A/Cs useful again.

Strum Wealh, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

The "shotgun" implementation is actually the correct, canonical implementation.

LB-X ACs were always described as "BattleMech-scale shotguns", with the cluster munitions being consistently represented as shotshell rounds (which fragment immediately upon leaving the weapon's barrel) rather than proximity-detonation "Shrapnel shell" rounds (so named after its inventor, an English artillery officer named Henry Shrapnel), the latter of which most people tend to (incorrectly) refer to as "flak rounds" (also, "flak" is actually a role rather than any particular type of shell; it is an acronym that comes from the German term "flieger abwehr kanone", meaning "Flyer Defense Cannon" or "Airplane/Aeroplane Defense Cannon") and/or confuse with actual canister shot rounds (which, as it happens and somewhat ironically, actually operate in a manner closer to shotshells than Shrapnel shells).

LB-X ACs are also specifically described as smoothbore weapons (TechManual, pg. 207; "These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons."), a descriptor that is used in such a way as to indicate contrast with other AC types... and one which is significant specifically because rifled barrels, due to the effect rifling has on spread, are generally unsuitable for firing shotshells, an issue that would not exist with Shrapnel shells.

Additionally, the CBT Master Rules (Revised Edition, #10984) specifically states (on page 132), "The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller sub-munitions."
The description indicates that the cluster munitions fragment "when fired", as opposed to "when the shell is within X meters of the target", further supporting the "cluster rounds as shotshells" LB-X model.

Moreover, many (if not all) of the novels in which they appear specifically refer to LB-X ACs and their specialty shells as "'Mech-sized shotguns", "glorified shotguns", and so on.

In conclusion: TT/canon LB-X cluster ammo was always intended to be a shotshell and is consistently described in a manner indicating such (as opposed to being a Shrapnel shell), and MWO's implementation of LB-X cluster ammo as shotshells is consistent with BT canon and therefore correct.

What about the Novel The Dying Time? During one of the battles in that book, the LB-X is described as using flak type round for its clusters.

[Sayyid]

GODzillaGSPB, on 18 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong: Flak-projectiles of mentioned 8.8 must be set to a certain distance or height at which they explode / cluster. Even modern bullets cannot determine their distance to the desired target and cluster in the right moment, unless they are rockets.

It was, but there is also a proximity detection system used on more modern systems.

[Viper69]

GODzillaGSPB, on 18 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong: Flak-projectiles of mentioned 8.8 must be set to a certain distance or height at which they explode / cluster. Even modern bullets cannot determine their distance to the desired target and cluster in the right moment, unless they are rockets.

Not sure on the flak 8.8 but the allies used a magnetic proximity switch to detonate their AA shells.

Sayyid, on 18 January 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

It was, but there is also a proximity detection system used on more modern systems.

Those were used by British and American forces in WW2 as well.

[Darvaza]

Odanan, on 18 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

If they make the "shogun" pellets to almost do not spread, the weapon could be useful at any range.

PS: adding the option for regular ammo to the LBX/10 is wrong because the LBX/10 is better than the AC/10 in all stats (weight, crits and range), and it would make the AC/10 obsolete.

and your point?

wait... they would probably implement it like DHS... the slug would do probably 7 points of damage.

[Hans Von Lohman]

It seems to me the solution is to make LB-10X rounds have splash damage. You fire out a solid shot, but when it hits something it then explodes does area of effect damage. This would be a bit different than the board game, but we also are not more accurate with pulse lasers like the board game either, and the board game does have arm weapons and torso weapons aim differently.

However, I don't have much of a problem with the current LB-10X as it is.

To me the real "shotgun" type weapons of MWO needs to be the SRMs. They should fire out in a cone shaped spread pattern. Right now they just feel like another gun as all the missiles seem to have a tight grouping.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 18 January 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[BrotherSurplice]

I think that all they need to do is let us change between cluster and slug rounds. Then the LB-X will be perfect.

Strum Wealh, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

The "shotgun" implementation is actually the correct, canonical implementation.

LB-X ACs were always described as "BattleMech-scale shotguns", with the cluster munitions being consistently represented as shotshell rounds (which fragment immediately upon leaving the weapon's barrel) rather than proximity-detonation "Shrapnel shell" rounds (so named after its inventor, an English artillery officer named Henry Shrapnel), the latter of which most people tend to (incorrectly) refer to as "flak rounds" (also, "flak" is actually a role rather than any particular type of shell; it is an acronym that comes from the German term "flieger abwehr kanone", meaning "Flyer Defense Cannon" or "Airplane/Aeroplane Defense Cannon") and/or confuse with actual canister shot rounds (which, as it happens and somewhat ironically, actually operate in a manner closer to shotshells than Shrapnel shells).

LB-X ACs are also specifically described as smoothbore weapons (TechManual, pg. 207; "These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons."), a descriptor that is used in such a way as to indicate contrast with other AC types... and one which is significant specifically because rifled barrels, due to the effect rifling has on spread, are generally unsuitable for firing shotshells, an issue that would not exist with Shrapnel shells.

Additionally, the CBT Master Rules (Revised Edition, #10984) specifically states (on page 132), "The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller sub-munitions."
The description indicates that the cluster munitions fragment "when fired", as opposed to "when the shell is within X meters of the target", further supporting the "cluster rounds as shotshells" LB-X model.

Moreover, many (if not all) of the novels in which they appear specifically refer to LB-X ACs and their specialty shells as "'Mech-sized shotguns", "glorified shotguns", and so on.

In conclusion: TT/canon LB-X cluster ammo was always intended to be a shotshell and is consistently described in a manner indicating such (as opposed to being a Shrapnel shell), and MWO's implementation of LB-X cluster ammo as shotshells is consistent with BT canon and therefore correct.

This guy gets it

Edited by BrotherSurplice, 18 January 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[wolf74]

PapajIGC, on 18 January 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

There are 3 things I feel would be good fixes for the LB-10X's.

• Make it a true-to-lore Flak round.
  
• Tighten the sprea by at least 25% (possibly 33% if you're under maximum effective range of 540).
  
• Increase the damage to 15 (1.5 per projectile) and leave everything else the same

Only Option number 1 would be ok for game play right now. You can't Boost the Damage per Per projectile due to the fact you make AC/10 & 20 TOTAL under powered than. You mite be looking for the Silver Bullet Guass Rifle(From the unbound book).
As for the spread (you missed the d) it current level I think is good, You should have seen it in Closed beta Larger than an Atlas at 90m.

[Viper69]

wolf74, on 18 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Only Option number 1 would be ok for game play right now. You can't Boost the Damage per Per projectile due to the fact you make AC/10 & 20 TOTAL under powered than. You mite be looking for the Silver Bullet Guass Rifle(From the unbound book).
As for the spread (you missed the d) it current level I think is good, You should have seen it in Closed beta Larger than an Atlas at 90m.

Your argument about the pellet damage is ok but not really. The AC10 and 20 are still viable because their damage is single location. In order for an LBX 10 to hit a single location you need to be within 10 feet. it would not obsolete those in the least if they were given advanced rounds that were unavailable to the LBX also. The damage for LRMs were upped due to their scatter effect as were SRMs.

[Solis Obscuri]

Strum Wealh, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

LB-X ACs are also specifically described as smoothbore weapons (TechManual, pg. 207; "These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons."), a descriptor that is used in such a way as to indicate contrast with other AC types... and one which is significant specifically because rifled barrels, due to the effect rifling has on spread, are generally unsuitable for firing shotshells, an issue that would not exist with Shrapnel shells.

Oddly enough, this would make them thoroughly unsuitable for firing standard autocannon slug rounds, as those are designed for the rifled barrels of regular autocannons, and would likely begin to plane or tumble after being fired from a smoothbore. I'd seen UACs described as smoothbore before (which made sense for their reliance on special ammunition), but nott the LBx.

[Tabrias07]

The current implementation is awful, does basically no damage, and most people carrying it can be safely ignored in favor of another target.

Add specialty ammo.

[GODzillaGSPB]

stjobe, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

The Bofors 3P line of ammunition would like to have a word with you.

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Well, what I meant is that "smart bullets" are not yet common. You might argue that in the 31st century they could be common, but BattleTech lore does not support that argument as far as I know.

[Penance]

Sayyid, on 18 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Cluster rounds should not be treated like a shotgun "00" buck round. But like a 8.8cm FlaK round.

It should be a solid round till it gets near the target then burst into fragments causing the damage to spread out. This would mean the LB-10X cluster round will be useful at any range not just close range.

But the LBX is meant to be a shotgun at close range. When you go long range, you change to a slug, and it becomes and AC10. use it a close ranges and prosper, suffer at long ranges, or use an AC.

Sybreed, on 18 January 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

my problem is that its max range is listed as 450M, while actually over 200M it's completely useless. Clusters spread so wide, you'll deal 4-5 dmg per shot.

It will get a buff supposedly.

Edited by Penance, 18 January 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[Padic]

To ignore whether it not it matches the lore, or whether or not such ammunition would be reasonable to construct...

I would definitely be more interested in the LB-10X if it fired shrapnel rounds rather than scattershot. I've never been enthralled by a video game shotgun before, but a video game proximity grenade launcher sounds like a lot of fun to use.

[HC Harlequin]

Sybreed, on 18 January 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

my problem is that its max range is listed as 450M, while actually over 200M it's completely useless. Clusters spread so wide, you'll deal 4-5 dmg per shot.

Not to mention that the rounds blow up at that range like SRM's. Instead of continuing their ballistic trajectory like every other ballistic round.

[General Taskeen]

Strum Wealh, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

The "shotgun" implementation is actually the correct, canonical implementation.

Ahem.

Sorry, that's not the Gospel Word and the people that liked your post are now misinformed.

A LB-X cluster shot is an upscaled version of a normal Flak Round in BT. Meaning the sub-munitions of an LB-X Cluster shot are effective enough vs. large targets like Mechs, since that is what they were designed to do. They became extremely effective vs. Aircraft in BT, which is a part you left out.

The source material and useless TT rule translations are too muddied for direct interpretation. Direct interpretations (key word) is why ECM is an abomination/combination of various rules, or why UAC's are double-bullet (rather than simply twice as fast firing).

Its described as shot-gun like (key word), releasing sub-munitions (pellets). Really the implementation can go either way with such descriptors, one being better of course. In, other words, pellets aren't supposed to shoot straight out of the barrel (as if the pellets were packed in there), which are acting more like Flechette Rounds.

And if people really want to use real world comparisons for the proximity fuze idea: http://en.wikipedia..../Proximity_fuse

In closing, MW:LL got LB-X Cluster Rounds completely right (and made them fun, key word) in comparison to MWO, which are completely ineffective and useless due to their wide spread and annoying, direct TT damage translation of 1 damage per pellet. MW:LL doesn't have promixity shells, but they solved the spread by simply tightening it completely so the entire cluster hits a smaller area of a Mech at an effective range. For instance, even LB-X 2 and LB-X 5 are completely effective reaching out to nearly 1,200m (they are also more damaging, over all, than regular AC's in that game, and balanced by slower cool downs).

Edited by General Taskeen, 18 January 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[ripper vtol]

Strum Wealh, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

The "shotgun" implementation is actually the correct, canonical implementation.

LB-X ACs were always described as "BattleMech-scale shotguns", with the cluster munitions being consistently represented as shotshell rounds (which fragment immediately upon leaving the weapon's barrel) rather than proximity-detonation "Shrapnel shell" rounds (so named after its inventor, an English artillery officer named Henry Shrapnel), the latter of which most people tend to (incorrectly) refer to as "flak rounds" (also, "flak" is actually a role rather than any particular type of shell; it is an acronym that comes from the German term "flieger abwehr kanone", meaning "Flyer Defense Cannon" or "Airplane/Aeroplane Defense Cannon") and/or confuse with actual canister shot rounds (which, as it happens and somewhat ironically, actually operate in a manner closer to shotshells than Shrapnel shells).

LB-X ACs are also specifically described as smoothbore weapons (TechManual, pg. 207; "These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons."), a descriptor that is used in such a way as to indicate contrast with other AC types... and one which is significant specifically because rifled barrels, due to the effect rifling has on spread, are generally unsuitable for firing shotshells, an issue that would not exist with Shrapnel shells.

Additionally, the CBT Master Rules (Revised Edition, #10984) specifically states (on page 132), "The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller sub-munitions."
The description indicates that the cluster munitions fragment "when fired", as opposed to "when the shell is within X meters of the target", further supporting the "cluster rounds as shotshells" LB-X model.

Moreover, many (if not all) of the novels in which they appear specifically refer to LB-X ACs and their specialty shells as "'Mech-sized shotguns", "glorified shotguns", and so on.

In conclusion: TT/canon LB-X cluster ammo was always intended to be a shotshell and is consistently described in a manner indicating such (as opposed to being a Shrapnel shell), and MWO's implementation of LB-X cluster ammo as shotshells is consistent with BT canon and therefore correct.

This...^

plus three resons your argument is a bit off.. no offence intended though, just trying to educate

1. The LBx is a giant shotgun and is implemented properly, if its passed 200m dont shoot at it. the LBx should have the option to switch to solid shot for the long range stuff, and the dev's have said they will get that in eventualy.

2. In table top range didnt matter to the spread so if you were at 2 hex's or 15 you rolled on the 10 missile table and that many "shells" hit. also if i remember right using it gave you a -2 to hit?

3. The LBx is a crit seeker its not suposed to do damage its suposed to destroy internal components by giving you as many as 10 tries to roll a crit as oposed to 1 with an AC10, so if your trying to use it purely for damage your doing it wrong wait to use it till there armor is gone the blow the hell out of them.

Please remeber that even ingnoring CW this game is nowhere near done there is still a lot of content missing and it makes some items in the game seem wrong or out of place, because the other half is missing.

[Strum Wealh]

Ghost513, on 18 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

What about the Novel The Dying Time? During one of the battles in that book, the LB-X is described as using flak type round for its clusters.

Where in the novel was that?
Looking through the e-book version, the only mention of flak is in chapter 8 (and the quotation of chapter 8 at the beginning of the book), in relation to the use of missiles and PPCs (along with some AC fire) as anti-air weapons against a couple of ASFs.

Quote

"SAM! SAM! SAM!" Warner bellowed as he spotted the contrails of what seemed to be a hundred missiles streaking up toward Graves' Seydlitz. Half of the missiles streaked past his fighter, but the remainder did not. The light aerospace craft was engulfed in a red-orange fireball. When the explosion dissipated, the Seydlitz was still there, looking as though it would fall to pieces any second, but still flying, and still under control.

"Warner," Graves gasped over the radio. "Get clear, they've got a flak trap down there. Get back and warn . . ."

A thick bolt of energy streaked upward to impact with the damaged fighter. The lightning-bright stream of charged particles split the Seydlitz in two. Graves did not eject. As the halves of Graves' Seydlitz fell toward the surface, Petar Warner stomped hard on his rudder pedal, slewing the fighter around in a bid for a high-speed run back to the safety of his unit's base. Struggling against the G forces created by the tight turn, Warner sent out a message that the militia patrol flight was under heavy attack. Rolling out of the turn, Warner began a series of evasive maneuvers, hoping to throw off his enemy's aim.

Another PPC discharge lashed out at him, missing the wildly jinking fighter by less than a meter. He was bracketed on the other side by paired streams of tracers that seemed to originate from the same spot as the PPC discharge.

A DropShip, Warner figured, struggling to avoid the ground fire. It had to be a DropShip. And a DropShip meant 'Mechs, and 'Mechs mean an invasion.

He thumbed the switch on his control column, opening a broadband communication channel.

Before he could utter a sound, a corkscrewing volley of missiles clawed his fighter from the sky.

Again, "flak" is actually a role (anti-aircraft defense) rather than a particular type of munition (the BT munition named "flak" not withstanding ) - anything from solid bullets to charged particles to missiles (not technically a cannon-type weapon, but still...) to laser beams can successfully fulfill the role, as long as there is enough of the munition(s) of choice in the air to sufficiently perforate the offending aircraft.

BrotherSurplice, on 18 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I think that all they need to do is let us change between cluster and slug rounds. Then the LB-X will be perfect.

Garth had already confirmed, in Ask the Devs 10, that there are plans for LB-X ACs to eventually receive the ability to fire both slug and cluster munitions (and, ostensibly, the ability to switch between them during a match).

Solis Obscuri, on 18 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Oddly enough, this would make them thoroughly unsuitable for firing standard autocannon slug rounds, as those are designed for the rifled barrels of regular autocannons, and would likely begin to plane or tumble after being fired from a smoothbore. I'd seen UACs described as smoothbore before (which made sense for their reliance on special ammunition), but not the LBx.

1.) There are slugs that include rifling-like fins (which do little or nothing for in-flight stabilization, but reduce friction against the barrel and grant a higher muzzle velocity than non-finned counterparts) on the slug itself - specifically, the "Brenneke slugs" and the "Foster Slugs".


"The Brenneke slug was developed by the German gun and ammunition designer Wilhelm Brenneke (1865–1951) in 1898. The original Brenneke slug is a solid lead slug with fins cast onto the outside, much like a rifled Foster slug. There is a plastic, felt or cellulose fiber wad attached to the base that remains attached after firing. This wad serves both as a gas seal and as a form of drag stabilization, much like the mass-forward design of the Foster slug. The "fins" impart little or no spin to the projectile; the actual purpose of the "fins" is to decrease the bearing surface of the slug to the barrel and therefore reduce friction and increase velocity."


"A Foster slug, invented by Karl Foster in 1931, is a type of shotgun slug designed to be fired through a smoothbore shotgun barrel. The standard American domestic shotgun slug, they are sometimes referred to as "American slugs" to differentiate them from the standard "European slug" design popularized by Brenneke.
The defining characteristic of the Foster slug is the deep hollow in the rear, which places the center of mass very near the tip of the slug, much like a shuttlecock or a pellet from an airgun. If the slug begins to tumble in flight, drag will tend to push the slug back into straight flight. This gives the Foster slug stability and allows for accurate shooting through smoothbore barrels out to ranges of about 75 yards (69 m). Most modern Foster slugs also have "rifling", which consists of thin fins on the outside of the slug. Contrary to popular belief, these fins actually impart no spin onto the slug as it travels through the air. The actual purpose of the fins is to minimize the friction on both the barrel and projectile and allow the slug to safely be swaged down when fired through a choke, although accuracy will suffer and choke wear will be progressively accelerated when fired through any gauge choked tighter than open."

2.) The M256 - based on the Rheinmetall 120mm gun (pictured below), and the main weapon of the Abrams MBT - is a smoothbore weapon, and the last I heard was that the Abrams had little problem with striking a target at multi-kilometer ranges with militarily-useful accuracy.


Thus, rifled barrels - while usually a nice feature, especially in small arms - are not strictly necessary for weaponry on the caliber of 'Mech-mounted ACs to be useful or effective, nor are they strictly necessary for shotguns to be able to fire slugs with any accuracy beyond literal spitting distance.