86 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

cdlord, on 18 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

How so? Machine Guns in canon are anti-infantry weapons. Not suited for Mech to Mech combat.

I don't know why on Earth you keep saying this. Have you ever played TT? Those machine guns were great at close quarters on something a Thunderbolt-5S which has to carefully ride the heat scale.

Machine guns were good general purpose weapons for both damage and crit seeking.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Culler, on 18 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Personally I think it's because the devs don't want to wander too far from what they think is canon out of fear of damaging the game balance.

Are we playing the same game whre they tripled the rof but not the heat dissipation? Or doubled the armor?

Spheroid, on 18 January 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I don't know why on Earth you keep saying this. Have you ever played TT? Those machine guns were great at close quarters on something a Thunderbolt-5S which has to carefully ride the heat scale.

Machine guns were good general purpose weapons for both damage and crit seeking.

Id say its because of this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_gun

Quote

The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon
Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 18 January 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Corison]

By your Logic, a Nuke is an anti-infantry weapon because it can take out an entire platoon.


Good logic there. But it still does damage to a tank I am afraid.

[Monky]

Getting real tired of people cherry picking a few articles that state that an MG can be very good against infantry and then stating that should be its only purpose.

Learn to read guys. This is basic common sense, it does 2 damage, same as an SRM per each MG.

[Corison]

Monky, on 18 January 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Getting real tired of people cherry picking a few articles that state that an MG can be very good against infantry and then stating that should be its only purpose.

Learn to read guys. This is basic common sense, it does 2 damage, same as an SRM per each MG.

Honestly when in doubt, go back to the stats (not flavor text) in the core rules. Start there for what the game "should" do then develop more and balance it out from there.

[Team Leader]

MGs are supposed to kill mech armor too. Why does everyone say that just because they're really GOOD at killing infantry, they can't do anything else? They are also Antiarmor weapons, armor being mechs...

[Solis Obscuri]

Gen Kumon, on 18 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

enough firepower to be a threat to heavily-armored vehicles

Sure, one can strip a ton of armor off in 80 seconds at a range of 90m. That's a lot better than an infantry rifle!

[Pyrrho]

To the quintessentialers:

This has all been done before, and it will all be done again:

http://mwomercs.com/...ff/page__st__60


Some required reading:

quin·tes·sen·tial

/ˌkwintəˈsenCHəl/
Adjective
Representing the most perfect or typical example of a quality or class: "the quintessential anti-infantry weapon".

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

[Corison]

Lets make it very simple. TT Rules. MG does "2" Damage against a mech. Not 0, not 1, not .001.. but a nice simple "2".

No 2 -3 because I like to read into stuff that is just flavor text. No 2-2 because I want it.. Simple "2".

Anything else you want to add, is just that... extra. The dev's have house ruled the game, in some ways for the better in some ways for the worse. In this example, they just flat out got it wrong.

Edited by Corison, 18 January 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

They have a buff incoming, but i'm not sure if i like the direction it's going in.

Sure a crit seeking weapon is nice but there is no low weight ballistic option except for the MG, which means even though late game it may have a purpose, the right here right now it remains relatively useless.

I'm fine with
8 Rounds a sec, 0.125 dmg a round and have like 1000 rounds a ton. That's 1 DPS a sec if all of your rounds impact the same spot.

You can also make them work like lasers - big ol beam of bullets that go screaming out to do 2 damage but have a cycle time as more ammo is loaded. Then have like 200 rounds a ton.

We are still limited by hardpoints, it's not like anyone can boat them.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 18 January 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Corison]

Correct, they have some changes in the works. None of them sound good however, so I suspect the debate will go on until the game is shutdown in a few years.

I would just scale the damage myself along with ammo tweaks. If you want it to shoot 100 times faster that's fine, just scale the damage and ammo so that in the end the net damage on target is about the same.

I wouldn't mind a high stream of low damage hits.. However I see it causing performance issues, so doing more damage per hit firing less often seems to make sense.

[Utilyan]

You look at every mechwarrior game intro, mech walks......runs into a enemy mech, whats the first thing it does?

DAKA-DAKA-DAKA!

Now although its my favorite weapon, I'm not so much for better damage vs armor, I'm little more for better vs unarmored parts than lost armor.

Other then that maybe i'd be for a jitter effect on who your shooting that would throw a aim off a few pixels. Sorta like the effect of a sniper sway from other games but not as severe.

Edited by Utilyan, 18 January 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[BladeSplint]

If I remember correctly, the machine guns in MW3 had much higher DPS than any of they other games and it didn't throw off balance at all.

[Captain Mittens]

In Mech Warriors Living Legends, the MGs were great at killing infantry, Hovercraft, and aircraft. They really have no purpose in this game as it doesn't include any of those things.

[DrSecretStache]

Heh. You could go really radical and introduce a new weapon to the game: the ac1.

Of course, that has nothing to do with TT, so no one would likely like it.

[Tasorin]

Or because machine guns are for Space Poors and bads yo!

[Corison]

I suspect the player base would be fine with added weapons, as long as they keep the balance and spirit of the game.

You could very easily add say snub5 or snub10 with reduced range, increased heat, but lower tonnage. You could even tweak the further by having faster/slower than average rates of fire.

[Sug]

Thontor, on 18 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

I think your math is off a little.

Yeah I used the damage per shot (0.04) instead of their dps (0.4). But I guess they already got a buff...

0.4 per sec X 10 sec round (TT) = 4 damage.

So they already doubled the damage of machine guns. That's sad.

Edited by Sug, 18 January 2013 - 02:43 PM.

[AC]

Ptom, on 18 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Then most likely the reason for this is because when the clans are introduced there will be machine gun "packages" with 2 or more machine guns in each ballistic slot.

Either that or they really don't want us using it. As said in another thread before this, using them as a "crit seeker" is horrible functionality when the mech in question will die in a few seconds from stronger weapons anyways.

If they don't want us using it, then why the hell add it to the game. And why make variants that revolve around them like the Cicada 3C. I am sick of these things being worthless. How hard is it to open up your code and type in a new damage number? I mean seriously here..... My frustration levels are about maxed out with respect to MG's.

[One Medic Army]

Sug, on 18 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

[/size]

Yeah I used the damage per shot (0.04) instead of their dps (0.4). But I guess they already got a buff...

0.4 per sec X 10 sec round (TT) = 4 damage.

So they already doubled the damage of machine guns. That's sad.

Well, the doubled the damage/turn (10s period). They also doubled armor and made it so that damage is as spread out as it could possibly be, at least lasers have pulse durations and no projectile travel time.
Not to mention the HIDEOUS NERF to MG ammo capacity. In TT a ton of MG ammo was good for 200 10s turns (a little over half an hour of continuous firing), or 400 total damage. In MWO a ton of MG ammo is good for 200 seconds (a little over 3 minutes of firing, or 20 10s turns), or 80 damage.
In TT you could take 1/2 ton of MG ammo and feed several MGs off of it for the duration of the fight while dealing respectable damage (within 90m).

Edited by One Medic Army, 18 January 2013 - 03:18 PM.