777 replies to this topic

[Spot]

If my team in not in sight but 2-8 enemys are, I charge. no it wont work in most situations but from time to time i manage too survive and get a kill or two. It all hinges on weather my team decides to take advantage of 6 people looking the wronge direction and takeing shots at one mech.

Another, after a long waiting match and its obvious the the damage my team is takeing will loose the match and closeing with the enemy is the only option. Why do you let two guys go over the hill alone? WHY?!?

[Void Angel]

Armando, on 12 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

@ Void Anggel

I agree that I am not a fan of defensive minded play style. I also agree with you that the Atlas is the BEST brawler, out of all the possible mechs that can brawl, that does not mean that brawling is the ONLY thing they are good for.

Without a shadow of a doubt, the Atlas > Stalker in both mobility (how fast they can turn), and twisting (can torso twist further and faster), and while you can put a TON of LRM15s or LRM20s in the Stalker you can NOT do it without running an XL engine (very, Very, VERY dumb thing to do in a mech who side torso sticks out like a sore thumb).

Listen, I love the Atlas…I love the Atlas, so much so that I have not one, but TWO different D-DCs. My 'main' D-DC is STD 350, AC/20, SRM6x3, 2MedLas (your good old fashion brawler). My 'backup" D-DC also has STD 350 but instead of a 'brawler' weapons load out it has... ERPPC, LRM15x3, and Tag. Guess which mech 'on average' gets more damage/kills???

My LRM D-DC is faster, turns better, has more armor than any Stalker....AND it has ECM. I don't have to use an XL engine either (unlike in my Stalkers). As far as the 'each team has one mech left, the LRM Atlas is honked' notion....the last time I took out the LRM Atlas my 3 other teammates (also running LRMs) died, our 4 pugs were also dead, and I was left alone to fight not one, but THREE enemies....they all died, we won, I ended up with over 1K damage and 4 KBs, so it CAN be done. (killing the last mech “RVN-3L” with the ERPPC took a couple of minutes, but he ended up going down like a virgin on prom night. :-)

The majority of your post about hanging back and not moving up until the teams D-DC is dead (or almost dead) being a bad strategy is spot on, a good read for any new MechWarrior to be sure!!!

Well, if you're using heavy long-range weapons, you can do well with a D-DC using LRMs as part of your weapon load. I believe I said as much earlier in the post (though I prefer the Atlas as a medium-to-close range combatant for the simple reason that it has trouble staying out of medium-to-close range; that's just a preference, though.) However, a long-range Sniper with LRMs is not a missile boat; you're using a long-range sniper variant whose armament includes LRMS - not boating them and thinking that two medium lasers on the arms is adequate for additional weapons loadout. Again, I did not make up that build. I actually witnessed people with two medium lasers and 40-45 LRMs as their sole armament. That's a bad build for empirical reasons. I should also point out that you were dropping with multiple friends - that makes a huge difference; this miniguide is written with pure puggers in mind.

Now, with just one ER PPC, I imagine your 'mech would look something like this. A Stalker built along the same lines would look like this. You're not as tough as an Atlas (or as fast as your brawler build,) but you'd still have more firepower - that's the trade-off. It's not a matter simply of raw tonnage. The point to all of this is that hardpoints matter a lot, particularly with LRMs (since the LRM15 does more damage/ton than other LRMs.) Even if you end up trying for a pure missile boat, the Stalker excels (although I've never liked pure LRM boating.)

As long as you got the point about not dithering, I'm happy. People need to be willing to take risks in any combat environment - even one that's pretend.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 February 2013 - 11:14 PM.

[Kmieciu]

One might argue if an Atlas with 3xLRM15+Artemis + TAG+ERPPC is a boat or not. But in my opinion it`s a perfect build for 4-man pugging. Especially when you have a friend with 6xSRM6 Cat, so you combine the best DPS in 180-1000 meter range with the best short range punch. Add a light mech for designating targets and base defense, and a medium or heavy brawler / sniper and you can take on anyone.

I simply do not fear Stalker LRM boats. You can snipe them from 500 meters away using cover, you can rush them with fast mechs, you can shut them down completely using a light mech with ecm. Stalker has a side torso the size of a hunchback :-) It`s actually hard not to hit the side torso when you are flanking one. And if the torso contains an XL engine or ammo, it`s dead.

When the PPC becomes a soft counter to the ECM, people will run both a Stalker and an Atlas with LRMs and PPCs. But switching ECM to counter is always easier that hitting a light mech every 5 seconds.

Edited by Kmieciu, 13 February 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[EmCeeMendez]

@VoidAngel,

Great OP, and even better rebuttals. I just had to go in and necro-rep them.

Sadly though, this is a case of not being able to reach your audience. The people this post is intended for aren't ever going to read this thread, and even if they did, they would most likely react emotionally instead of logically (as we've already seen plenty of examples).

If you ever need a pilot with 2 ounces of situational awareness, hit me up.

[Void Angel]

Oh, but I have reached my audience. Look at the likes on the OP; now count the trolls (there's four.) There will always be people who will jump on posts like this in order to get their self-righteous indignation fix. It's seductive: they get the adrenaline rush of being angry, and the affirmation of being "right" - all they have to do is keep arguing and never admit any validity to the other side. But those guys aren't most guys, for all the noise they make.

Most people who disagree with me will do so on reasonable grounds, and listen to reason when I explain myself. They may not accept my viewpoint (though of course my logic is perfect!) but they'll give a constructive point of view. Speaking of which...

Edited by Void Angel, 13 February 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Void Angel]

Kmieciu, on 13 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

One might argue if an Atlas with 3xLRM15+Artemis + TAG+ERPPC is a boat or not. But in my opinion it`s a perfect build for 4-man pugging. Especially when you have a friend with 6xSRM6 Cat, so you combine the best DPS in 180-1000 meter range with the best short range punch. Add a light mech for designating targets and base defense, and a medium or heavy brawler / sniper and you can take on anyone.

I simply do not fear Stalker LRM boats. You can snipe them from 500 meters away using cover, you can rush them with fast mechs, you can shut them down completely using a light mech with ecm. Stalker has a side torso the size of a hunchback :-) It`s actually hard not to hit the side torso when you are flanking one. And if the torso contains an XL engine or ammo, it`s dead.

When the PPC becomes a soft counter to the ECM, people will run both a Stalker and an Atlas with LRMs and PPCs. But switching ECM to counter is always easier that hitting a light mech every 5 seconds.

It's true that just one PPC is borderline, depending on your definition of "boat." But even one ERPPC still a decent punch to supplement the LRMS at range - it means that the Atlas can actually stand in the open and intimidate people (where tactically appropriate) rather than sitting out of sight, relying on spotters or ECM to protect him. Even so, I'd probably go with something more like this if I was making a long-range Atlas. Also bear in mind that the ER/PPC weapons buff was not implemented as of nearly all the conversations in this post, and that the post does not disparage all long-range/sniper builds (other than a 2 MLAS, 45LRM Atlas) - only bad tactics using them.

As far as Pugging, I personally prefer something less dependent on my teammates than any LRM boat - particularly with all the people using "sniper" builds. The huge jump in prevalence for ER and PPC weapons makes it much riskier to expose yourself directly, and the fix to lag shields means that lights can't be so brazen about running around the enemy team. This makes relying on your teammates for locks a much bigger gamble than before.

Now, with the Stalker I think you're underestimating the chassis a bit. Remember, you're dropping with a buddy specialized for close combat; a lot of the LRM Stalkers you see are probably pugs. My drop partner uses a Stalker, and an LRM-heavy build is one of his favorites - or even a pure LRM boat (over my strenuous objections.) His Stalker will out-slug your Atlas in an LRM battle any day of the week, even accounting for the additional toughness of your chassis. Certainly, its brawling ability is negligible at best (particularly since his video card sucks,) but it's specialized for long-to-midrange engagements - and my spider carries more brawling firepower than one ER PPC. We're veering a bit off-topic, though: this thread addresses bad tactical practices in uncoordinated PUGs. Hopefully a premade group will cooperate better - whether it uses an Atlas or a Stalker!

Edited by Void Angel, 13 February 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[KylleX]

I am waiting for Pandamcpanda to return and vomit more nonesne into this thread. This is like watching a nerdy silent movie. *popcorn*

Also, I fully agree with Void Angel, great OP! Chickens, they're what's for dinner!

[evilC]

TL;DR, but just to say that as far as PUGs go I disagree 100%

99% of all PUG matches that I lose are because newbs play it like it is COD and get way way too aggressive (ESPECIALLY on frozen - the ridge between the dropship and the mountain is like some kind of magical noob magnet)

[1453 R]

Void, you're quickly becoming one of me personal MWO heroes. I've told people pretty much verbatim, "See that fracking Atlas over there? The one with an ECM tag over its head? Yeah. That Atlas. Follow it."

Now if only three quarters of this thread actually had the foggiest idea what you were actually talking about...

I have no military experience, I've never read The Art of War, and I still know it applies mostly to strategic-level conflicts or higher and only touches on tactics as something of an afterthought Sun Tzu firmly (and correctly, as it turns out) believed that wars are won and lost on a level far higher than the platoon level, which is basically what we're doing in MWO. The people who actually wrote about tactics all said the exact same thing you did - do your best to conserve resources and preserve your striking power until the right moment - at which point you go for ******* broke. Don't hesitate, don't dither, don't worry about taking damage. You take yourself and your guns into the battle and you carve out the enemy's face with them or die trying.

All Void's saying, guys - the only thing Void's saying - is that when the right moment comes, don't be afraid to go in there and get to work. You're not doing your team any more good hiding behind the hill "conserving your firepower" than you would be if you went out and got off three shots before going up in smoke. Stay with your team and fight when they fight, even if it's not when you would have preferred to fight. because I guarantee you that waiting for the point when you want to fight will do you no good whatsoever if, by that point, the enemy's killed all seven of your teammates in return for only three of theirs.

[Void Angel]

evilC, on 13 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

TL;DR, but just to say that as far as PUGs go I disagree 100%

99% of all PUG matches that I lose are because newbs play it like it is COD and get way way too aggressive (ESPECIALLY on frozen - the ridge between the dropship and the mountain is like some kind of magical noob magnet)

• Numbering a thread, IBTL, TLDR, or any other fad statements

Please follow the Code of Conduct. If you can't be bothered to read the thread, don't bother to post - your opinion on something you don't know is worthless.

[Abivard]

lets make it simple;

Don't p i s s on them, give them the BOOT!

[evilC]

Void Angel, on 13 February 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

• Numbering a thread, IBTL, TLDR, or any other fad statements

Please follow the Code of Conduct. If you can't be bothered to read the thread, don't bother to post - your opinion on something you don't know is worthless.

Seriously? Mmmkay.

I read the whole OP. The TL;DR was in reference to the whole thread. I do not have to read the whole thread to have an opinion on a subject raised in the OP.

I have done quite a lot of solo dropping recently, and my experience from those games and even when I ran in a 4-man, is that noobs are generally way too aggressive. I have no problem with an all LRM Atlas, I *do* have way more problem with people pushing when it makes no sense to do so. When you drop a man or two short, timidity is very much an option.
In fact, what you call "Coward's Ridge", I call "****** Ridge". For the people who think they can be brave and "do their bit" by being up front and exchanging pot-shots with the enemy and "dodging" incoming fire with an untwisted torso and stepping forwards and backwards.

You talk about fear guiding people, but I just don't see it - I think the bigger problem is new players not having fear, not being a little timid sometimes. Therefore, I disagree that "Timidity is not a Tactic" is a message we need to be getting out to new players.

[1453 R]

I would much rather see new players start out being too aggressive and learning to rein it in than see them start out too timid. Mostly because a player who starts out aggressive will learn that he's being too aggressive by getting his face kicked in repeatedly, and will thus progress towards being aggressive enough while also not being stupid.

A timid newbie, on the other hand, is often going to be one of the last guys standing, if not the last guy standing. He will attribute this to a strong survival instinct and be correct, but what he will not learn is that his strong survival instinct is hampering his team. Instead, he will believe that he is doing something right, because if he wasn't he wouldn't be the last man standing all the time, right? The timid newbie's bad behavior will reinforce itself rather than correct itself as the over-aggressive newbie's behavior does, and that player will likely need a stiff wake-up slap, either from the forums or from some particularly irate teammate, before he realizes that simply surviving longer does no good.

In general, you need to engage the enemy to win the fight. If you are not engaging the enemy, finding the enemy for your team to engage, or moving from where you are into a position from which you can engage the enemy...then what, exactly, are you contributing to your team's victory?

[Vechs]

Void you had a decent point and then horribly derailed your thread by being incredibly dogmatic about the role of the Atlas.

You can make plenty of viable long-range Atlas builds, both direct fire and with LRMs, I've mastered all four Atlas, I've brawled with them, and done dedicated long range builds, they all work, and I've carried my teams hard with all kinds of builds. Being so immovable about long-range Atlas was not the way to make your point.

[1453 R]

She wasn't talking about long-range Atlases (to hell with the 'Atlai' thing). She was talking about Atlases who take armaments I could better on a Catapult. What it seemed to boil down to was really simple, actually - if your Atlas isn't using its cannon hardpoints, you're not using your Atlas properly. Whether you're doing that with a Gauss rifle, some large lasers/PPCs, and a few LRM racks, or doing it with a double-barreled shotgun, some medium pulse lasers and a bunch of SRM racks doesn't matter. If your Atlas is using two LRM launchers and two medium lasers, your Atlas is bad. It'd be bad as a Stalker. It'd be bad as a Catapult. It'd be acceptable in a Trebuchet, which weighs half of what an Atlas does.

That was the entire point, and all there was to the point. Arm your Atlascommensurately with the fact that it's a fracking Atlas. Give yourself a giant gun, a couple of bigass beam weapons, some hefty missile launchers, and more tons of ammunition than a Commando spends on its engine. Stand back and be a long-range land battleship if you want, but by Joe be a vicious one, not some limp-bricked missile pusher with no backup armament.

[Void Angel]

evilC, on 13 February 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Seriously? Mmmkay.

I read the whole OP. The TL;DR was in reference to the whole thread. I do not have to read the whole thread to have an opinion on a subject raised in the OP.

I have done quite a lot of solo dropping recently, and my experience from those games and even when I ran in a 4-man, is that noobs are generally way too aggressive. I have no problem with an all LRM Atlas, I *do* have way more problem with people pushing when it makes no sense to do so. When you drop a man or two short, timidity is very much an option.
In fact, what you call "Coward's Ridge", I call "****** Ridge". For the people who think they can be brave and "do their bit" by being up front and exchanging pot-shots with the enemy and "dodging" incoming fire with an untwisted torso and stepping forwards and backwards.

You talk about fear guiding people, but I just don't see it - I think the bigger problem is new players not having fear, not being a little timid sometimes. Therefore, I disagree that "Timidity is not a Tactic" is a message we need to be getting out to new players.

Well, you actually put some thought into this post, but as I warned you, it's not worth anything - your objections have been covered (ad nauseum) in the conversations you ignored. Further, you've misunderstood information that's clearly written in the OP. As I and others have spent a large amount of effort talking about this already, I'm not going to rehash it here - if you want to understand what is being discussed, please at least read my responses in the thread and get back to me if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.

Also, TL;DR is not prohibited "only if you mean the whole thread." It's prohibited because it's an asinine, trollish thing to say - it's rude and you should not do it. If you had read the thread, you would have found that you jumped to an innaccurate interpretation of what I'm trying to say and mistook my point.

Edited by Void Angel, 13 February 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Void Angel]

Vechs, on 13 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Void you had a decent point and then horribly derailed your thread by being incredibly dogmatic about the role of the Atlas.

You can make plenty of viable long-range Atlas builds, both direct fire and with LRMs, I've mastered all four Atlas, I've brawled with them, and done dedicated long range builds, they all work, and I've carried my teams hard with all kinds of builds. Being so immovable about long-range Atlas was not the way to make your point.

I've said little about the role of the Atlas - beyond the empirically verified claim that trying to boat LRMS (with just two medium lasers on the side) is not an effective way to use the 'mech. As I've pointed out a few times in response to this objection, You can certainly make a long-range build; I've done so myself, as a matter of fact, and while I do feel that a medium-close-range build is more effective overall (if only because of the damage/internal space of certain weapons,) I certainly can see that a direct-fire or hybrid LRM build can be effective. The only thing I've absolutely refused to concede is that boating LRMS in a D-DC is a good idea - it's not, and I've linked empirical data to demonstrate why I think that. Further, you should remember that this thread dates back from before the current buffs to long-range beam weaponry. Before the buffs, Large Lasers hands-down outperformed other large beam weapons in terms of damage/tonnage and heat/damage. Now that that's changed, I'm considering going to a PPC/LRM build for my own D-DC (after I finish skilling up my Spider.)

Edited by Void Angel, 13 February 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[So who took Pilot Name as a name]

After having lurked around this thread since its start... I have to ask: was 'cowardice' too harsh? Seems like, given the context, 'timidity' (as in, 'tactical timidity leading to you being the last man standing on your side but the loss your team') and 'cowardice' are text-book synonyms. I learned the hard way of having to cool off my desires to over-push the line with a Trial Dragon-5N, the first mech I ever dropped with after installing the game thinking 'this looks like the worst Trial choice out there: if I can hang in there with THAT until I have enough to buy my own mech with Cbills, it'll be a good start'.

Then got to master the Hunchback... and at times, I'll admit I get over-confident and Rambo it up. Sometimes, it works, but I don't think it's because I'm beyond-awesome; it's mostly having to do (or so I think) with the gap between pilots' skills/attention/motivation during a match. Like that one time I took on an Atlas and a Stalker at once? I don't think it was a sound idea to go against them but did it ''just because'' and what do you know, they fell. But had I been up against ONE of those two pilots had that pilot been ''on top of his game'', it would have been suicide. But you can be sure that, as I was going 1(medium)vs2(assault), my idea of ''fun'' in that instant was to test my battle awareness, survivability under superior firepower and maneuverability. I didn't jump in there thinking ''I'm gonna lay waste to them both!''; I went there thinking ''let's see how long I last, and how much I can dent their armor before I fall''.

I dunno, I still think it's a game and, while I'm one who would ''go Rambo'' when bored (or.. run a HBK-4P Flamer-boat... or ER PPC-boat), I think maybe some might try to be overly cautious at their hour of boredom. Kind of as if 'Direct line of sight with the enemy is LAVA!''* or something...

*The Floor is Lava

Edited by So who took Pilot Name as a name, 13 February 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[Void Angel]

Actually, the two words aren't exactly the same. Cowardice has a much stronger negative connotation, which is important on this point. It's like the difference between "startled" and "terrified." I chose the more evocative wording initially because I wanted to grab people's attention and get them to read the post - that worked, in most cases. We've only had four trolls, by my count, and a lot of likes and discussion. The issue with the trolls isn't that the title is too harsh, it's that they're trolls - they enjoy the rush of being "righteously angry" and the feeling of knowledgeability they get from "proving" their targets wrong. I'll talk to them in good faith up to a point (sometimes an apparent troll is just having a really bad day,) but there are a couple I've had to simply ignore.

As for the tactical aspect... sure, there's some times where you just want to test yourself. I've had times where I knew that dueling that Atlas with my Spider probably wasn't for the best, but I did it for longer than I should have anyway. Sometimes that works - after all, I did tie him up, and escaped with most of my limbs! But before you load out your Hunchback with the weakest weapon in the game (looking forward to the flamer/MG buffs,) consider that there are other people on your team trying to grind c-bills or experience. It's not just about us - there's not single-player mode. So while you should always feel free to experiment, you want to try to select a fun build that's also effective.

The same applies to tactics and teamwork. In the final analysis it's not just our match - it belongs (collectively) more to the other people playing than it does to us, and we owe them our best for the same reason we expect them to look out for us: we're a team. Certainly we can have fun: "our best" doesn't mean "min-maxing cookie cutter builds to get the most out of any given chassis in any given role." But we shouldn't screw our team by slapping two LRM20s and a couple of Medium Lasers on an Atlas and calling it good, to cite the most tempestuous example. We're here to have fun with each other, and we're here to poke at the game as beta testers. Heck, I remember my favorite Counterstrike kill: I had a glitch that prevented me from aiming properly, so I jumped off the roof of a four-story warehouse with a knife to kill the last guy on the other team. I did it, too! Fell out of the sky and stabbed him in the head before dying myself. Best CS kill ever, if I do say so myself. But while it was fun, I wouldn't play an entire match just trying to do that.

So go have fun! But remember to remember your teammates.

[So who took Pilot Name as a name]

Void Angel, on 13 February 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

But before you load out your Hunchback with the weakest weapon in the game (looking forward to the flamer/MG buffs,) consider that there are other people on your team trying to grind c-bills or experience. It's not just about us - there's not single-player mode. So while you should always feel free to experiment, you want to try to select a fun build that's also effective.

(...)

So go have fun! But remember to remember your teammates.

Too true, that's why I leave most of the ''not-so-productive'' experimenting to a minimum, when PUG and only if the 4man or 8man I'm dropping with don't mind ''going pyro'' with flamers on every mechs for the drop (for example). ;D

Funny enough, while not the most effective 4P out there, I've started to do better than half the team with a 4xER PPC HBK. Part of getting better with that slow build was my motivation to make my team ''not notice'' that I was in a joke build, being more careful, making every shot count more than I usually do. It brought me the chance to experience a mindset which I could then get into with my functional builds, and thus, performing better with them as well.

Again, I'll confess, it's personal training at the potential expense of the team's success, but as you said, there is no Single Player! Then again, it can't hurt PUGs (or even a pre-made) to have a hard training with ''-1 decent mech'' on our side from time to time! Between a flamer-boat and a disconnect-on-drop, I'll take the flamer-boat. I have to say, the time we had a guy disconnect on our side AND I was the flamer-boat, I felt a tiny bit bad.

To be honest, the more I play, the less inclined I feel to go back to my 4P Flamer-boat or 6xLarge Laser-boat. I've seen what it can do - it's a ''handicapped'' Assault in every way - and now really, if I want to go this slow on the battlefield, I'll save up for an Assault-type mech with twice the armor and 3 times the fire power.