777 replies to this topic

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

you are an individual. you are not your team. you cannot control the actions of others without a large amount of infrastructure work and even then its not.. I digress.

People are going to play however they like, and as long as it fits pgi's enforced definition of what constitutes playing the game then no matter how angry you get the fact is you have no control over the situation and people are free to do what they want despite any preconceived notions you might have had about being in control of the situation, or that people will act like you. In fact, things like "timidity" as you describe it is based entirely on perspective and as we all know perspective can be highly subjective especially when emotions and senses of no control over a situation rear themselves. They could just be waiting to see what the enemy is doing, or taking up what they think is a superior strategic point based on previous map experiences in relation to their mech build. Yes it could also be genuine "don't wanna scratch my mech-itis" but this is not the only possible reason for the behavior you see in your teammates. However what I can tell you is that this game is a group activity often devoid of any actual teamwork, and that if you are alone your death is your fault alone.

cannot tell you how many times in world of tanks I'll get teamkilled or attempted teamkilled because some turbo ******* thinks i'm "running away" or "camping" when in reality I'm repositioning to take advantage of a recently developed situation or holding an entire line by myself and they've just been raging that what they're seeing doesn't match their ignorant as all hell expectations of what good playing decisions look like. But they'll still run xvm and piss and moan over the projected win rate.


of course I should also go into what does constitute smart gameplay after typing all of that, but I cannot be motivated to explain to complete strangers how to play the game properly and capitalize on skirmishes and the nature of the damage/hitpoint model of game mechanics when I will be shooting at them. Never interrupt your enemies when they are making a mistake, it is impolite.


but what i guess it really comes down to is people who rage over others not doing what they want should also stay away from driving in public.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 01 September 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[Void Angel]

"As we all know," fallacious appeals to common knowledge are not a valid argument. I could only wish that were the only error in reasoning you've committed, but alas, this is the internet.

Your position here is contradictory and silly; I honestly don't know where to begin. Should I object at once to your silly accusation that I'm "raging?" Do I confront you first on your obvious self-contradiction, claiming that "perspective can be highly subjective," while insisting on your own perspective as truth? The argument from pity about how mean people in another game shot at you when you were only trying to help? The utter, rock-headed asininity of posting on a guide only to object to its being written, and to dismiss the entire section of the forums - in which you are posting - as the "mistakes of an enemy?"

In the end, however, you haven't earned a rebuttal - you've earned mocking laughter and the dismissal due a silly troll. Prattle and supercilious condescension do not comprise a rebuttal to the detailed explanations and reasoning presented in this guide; they are merely an announcement that your opinion is to be discounted.

But don't let me stop you from bumping the thread! After all, when an enemy is making a mistake, it's rude to interrupt him.

Edited by Void Angel, 01 September 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Supah]

Started playing again after about a year of not playing. It seems like most of my games (haven't done any pugs, just solo queue public) just involve standing around, lobbing missiles, taking pot shots and then one side gets a few more their way and is able to roll over the other side. Going from 8->12 mechs in a match really changes the dynamic, so it's very dangerous for a light or even a quick medium to poke in, weave around and disrupt [I love playing in little Commandos, Cicadas, and and even something as big as a Dragon with the largest XL I can fit]. Is this just par for the course now? No more ability to play that disruptive/distraction game? Seems like only Spiders can get away with it, but there's no real damage potential until mechs are already stripped of their armor.

[Void Angel]

It's not always that way, but playing an old-school harasser is difficult these days. It was actually more difficult for a while, but the Clans' general dearth of pinpoint-damage weapons force them to actually maneuver a bit, so it's opened up. Sadly, however, the Clan's higher damage potential and range make it extremely hard for non-ECM lights to survive their attempts at harassment. Thus, the Spider and the Raven tend to be the only lights who will detach from the main body. If you're playing a disruption/distraction light, like a Jenner, you can still do that - but you'll need to wait until the main engagement to really commit yourself.

It's not so bad as it used to be, but it may help you to think of matches as a feud between rival moonshiners. Things have gotten out of hand, but nobody really wants to get shot, so they all scatter out to their favorite hiding rocks and exchange desultory pot-shots while partaking of their product (to fortify their nerves.) Eventually, some combination of enemy fatalities and liquid courage will motivate them to come out from behind cover and start to advance on the enemy force - that's when backstabbing lights will start to be able to play the game.

Hope that helps you - just try to read the overall morale of the team, and moderate your risks.

Edited by Void Angel, 01 September 2014 - 07:23 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Supah, on 01 September 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

Started playing again after about a year of not playing. It seems like most of my games (haven't done any pugs, just solo queue public) just involve standing around, lobbing missiles, taking pot shots and then one side gets a few more their way and is able to roll over the other side. Going from 8->12 mechs in a match really changes the dynamic, so it's very dangerous for a light or even a quick medium to poke in, weave around and disrupt [I love playing in little Commandos, Cicadas, and and even something as big as a Dragon with the largest XL I can fit]. Is this just par for the course now? No more ability to play that disruptive/distraction game? Seems like only Spiders can get away with it, but there's no real damage potential until mechs are already stripped of their armor.

Solo queue drops are what we call "pugs" From "Pick Up Games"

[Enigmos]

Quote

Why ... Why is it so hard for people to follow a simple order, from a strategy that clearly just paid off? Is basic intelligence really THAT rare?

Is it really a problem of native intelligence?
Could it have been a language barrier?

It might be cultural. For example, modern relativism: Many people commonly believe that any opinion is just as good as any other opinion. As a matter of fact, they may also consider their beliefs to be just as significant as the facts.

So when you implemented a viable tactical plan, I'm guessing some disbelieved that it was your tactic that was working so well. They may have presumed that either red team was incompetent, or that their skills were that much superior.

It couldn't have been the tactic, since that would argue that their skills were not the most important thing.

You may also find those players griping that they seem only to drop with bad teams: it is always the team's fault and never the player's fault, even though each team is made up of players. Defeat follows them around: it is bad luck rather than that their teamwork needs some self-discipline.

Additionally, some players tend to blame their teammates rather than recognizing the more accurate insight that if red team is victorious the simply played that match better.

It has to be someone's fault: it could not be that the winner was simply better.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 02 September 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Void Angel]

Do not get me started on post-modernism. However, while related, post-modern relativism isn't the core issue - bias confirmation is. People interpret new facts in light of their current understanding of the world - this is part of why eye-witness testimony is highly unreliable. If they're not trained to be careful (e.g. because they're taught relativism,) then they can uncritically and unconsciously rationalize and interpret possibly contrary data to fit their preconceived ideas. Relativistic mush-thought makes this tendency worse, but it's always there.

The only way to combat this tendency in the general population is by presenting them with contrary reasoning in the hopes that it sticks. =)

[RazorbeastFXK3]

I started playing Mechwarrior when I bought (might've been bought for me not sure) the game Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries. I learned a lot of good and useful stuff from that game and it was nice. After reading the creator's rant about "Timidity" I couldn't help but remember Sergeant Unther or "Dead-Eye"s rants/directives when first starting out.



Moved onto Mechwarrior 3 and things got a bit more interesting. Then went to Mechwarrior 3 Online and was brought to a whole new level.. 'thecombatzone' where I joined a clan/unit and followed rules when thrown into arena battles groups of 4 vs 4 which was great. Legging wasn't allowed 'cause it was cheap and dishonorable (also the fastest way to take out the opposition because when you destroyed one leg the mech destructed on the spot.. none of that "speed goes down to 40kph or 50% speed whichever is slower until the 2nd leg is taken out" crap.

Then I went from playing Mechwarrior 3 to mwomercs.com completely skipping pirate's moon and Mechwarrior 4 and everything else between Mechwarrior 3 to mwomercs.com. Rather happy to participate in this game again 'cause it's been a long vacation ever since the servers hosting MW3/MW4 online that I played on were terminated.

I kind of miss being able to deal splash damage with LRM20x2 at close range and causing my opponent to experience a gyro overload by unloading the LRM20x2 into the ground at their feet. Or using UAC20x2 to knock 'em over (ramming your opponent doesn't cause either mech to fall over, you did have to hit them with a large caliber weapon at close range)

I understand rules change to relieve frustration and complication but at the same time.. everyone has a role and one of the main priorities is to "help protect your lancemates or die alone" no matter what mech you may be piloting.

All the warnings of "Overheating" or "Incoming missile" are just a way to say "HEY! HEADS UP!" not to send the pilot into panic mode "OMIGOSH WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!" when it could be someone chainfiring a few LRM5 launchers or someone needing to lighten up on the weapon use to give their mechs a chance to cool a bit.

And on a side note.. when you're protecting your lancemate's ass.. don't mount it.. 'cause if they are peeking around the corner at the opponent.. sometimes their only escape is to throw their mech in reverse and if you're in their way.. congrats.. you just pissed off your lancemate and possibly got them killed 'cause you were up their ass *parked right behind them*.

[Void Angel]

Oh, you haven't SEEN a rant - that's just a spirited introduction. The game is fun; development has been slow, for a number of reasons, but seems to be picking up now. That's why you'll see people embarrassing themselves by spouting conspiracy-theory nonsense about how bad the game/company is - while still playing the game. Ignore these people, because they're not using rational thought any more.

In any case, I do hope the guide was helpful to you. Welcome back to the franchise, and have fun!

[salkeee]

Good Post Void Angel I can not disagree with U.
(didnt read all but did 1st few pages and this last one hehe)

Timodity I learned that word now at least I think,if it could be defined on a simple way I would apriciate it.
(I m bad at english hope U understand)

Uh timodity thing I 1st experienced in WOT(world of tanks)usualy by stat chasers those ppl have a goal to abuse any teammate that they dont know or are not friended with in order to deal that much more dmg wich actualy doesnt lead tham to any noticable lead in victories but pure numbers in stats is what drive many ppl.I had "cough" friends wich had that tactic,some of tham actualy very skilled some of tham being just average like me and even those not so skilled. Yes they are selfish.I found it very sad when I experienced that here in a very competitive grop that I was in.

Than U have "noobs" inexperienced players the ones that are GUILTY for lost games.I find it funny to blame tham just becouze of their lack of experience and lack of experience for any gamer mostly come from IRL,we all cant play that much,we all never did play much we are all gamers thou but some of tham without respect even to tham self becouze U dont get what U dont give.

Than U get silly balance mechanics implied by developers well that is what I like to say a apple in a pig on a stick mouth(lol that sound funny on english)It hapened in WOT it did hapen in LOL also but not so often(lately those isues are fixed fast) RIOT is awesome at keeeping "perfect imbalance"(I love LOL but hate playng it,comunity issue) and now here with big firepower Clan mech and leaving IS mechs without true answer to that.
May I sugest armor buff for IS and leaving firepower of clans ? just a bug i wna be seen.


So all this together gets to that "Timodity tactic" that some ppl like me trully after all I said still dont understand I am 1 of those taht will die for unknown teammate even thou in most cases that leads to lost games but the joy that I get if I suced to save some1 and hold out flank of enemy teammate is biger than 10 aftherward lost games when I failed to do so.I will improwe in that department becouze its my wish to never be abandoned by my teammates.

[Void Angel]

Thanks for the response - and don't worry about your English. I've got a perfectly fluent, native-speaking friend whose typed English is almost illegible because he doesn't bother correcting typing errors - which means he never improves.

I've seen organized groups treat Pugs as shields - I should cover that in an appendix, perhaps. The thing is, when I got them to stop playing that way - to treat their teammates as teammates, and not just cannon fodder - their win rates went up, even dropping alone. It's especially bad to do that in any team now, because the enemy team can have up to a full premade on it, and you need to work with your teammates.

PGI's balance problems with Clan 'Mechs are getting fixed - they're slower than RIOT for a variety of reasons (e.g. smaller game, with a steep learning curve, gives less accurate demographics.) The reason we HAVE the balance issues with IS v. Clans in the first place is that they (PGI) wanted to respect the BattleTech lore while still having a playable game. Since that means you have a lot of variables to balance (chassis v. weight class v. dps v. pinpoint damage v. range v...) it's not surprising that things don't always work well the first time. They're still doing ok - but my hope is that the game will pick up once CW is fully online, and they'll be able to hire a few more people.

[1453 R]

I just played a match this morning that proves this. Proves it so hard it will never again be disproven. That’s what happens when smartly aggressive play lets you not only man-tank more than triple your weight of enemy metal, but drop two of your three attackers while blunting an enemy flank long enough for your team to realize it’s there and roll it up, with a direct positive result on your later crushing victory. My apologies for the lack of video, but I have neither the software nor the CPU horsepower to record my games as well as play them. Half the time I’m lucky I can play…but that’s neither here nor there.

All right. We’re on Canyon network, and I’m in my TBR-C (http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1e8ea3af2416dab. Note: Armor and ammo distribution is not accurate). This has proven to be one of the slickest fits I’ve had the pleasure of driving on a Timber Wolf (my thanks to the forumite who twigged me to the idea!), and I’m about to prove it. The fight has moved into the typical poppy-snipey poke-each-other-from-the-upper-ridges thing on Canyon Network where both teams are skirting the big center Moshpit Deathbowl area and putting their distance guns to work, when a light ‘Mech of ours in the back starts acquiring locks. The rest of my team, focused on their sniping, pays no heed even as the poor guy gets clawed to death, throwing up his UAV to try and warn the team that there’s two or three Baddites angling around the gullies towards our base.

BUT I NOTICE.

I am unfortunately too late to Save Our Light (sorry, B33f), but I get back there in time to catch both a trial NubbaPhract and a Timber Wolf stomping past the poor guy’s smoking carcass towards our base. Our turrets are starting to take their first LRM popshots as I analyze my targets. NubbaPhract, and one of the worst Timber Wolf fits I’ve ever seen (2x C-LRM-10, 1x C-UAC/5, 1x C-ERLL. What the actual frog, guy). The NubbaPhract’s out in front, but I decide to let him pass. Terrible fit or not, the Timber Wolf is likely being run by a more experienced pilot by virtue of costing sixty bucks at the minimum, and this way I can slide down between the two and tango with the Timber Wolf alone for a few moments while the Cataphract realizes what’s going on and turns around, which I proceed to do.

Shockingly enough, a C-Gauss and seven C-ERML beats the ever-loving snot out of a C-UAC/5 and a C-ERLL in a close fight, and I proceed to rip all the nose armor off the madly retreating enemy Timber Wolf. The Cataphract’s swung around by this point and is making his displeasure at my mauling of his teammate felt, and an enemy NubLander (I think. It was Rookie Green and spewing large lasers from its chest, but I never got a chance to check its fit) has also dropped in and is telling me I shouldn’t do rude things like blow up his teammates. The Timber Wolf I’ve two-thirds cored disappears around a bend in the gully, and leaves me with his two trial teammates.

BUT I’M 1453-R, AND I DON’T DO SCARED.

Besides, my options are somewhat limited. Without jets I can’t get back up the gully, and Rookie Greens or not, a Phract and a Highlander will wreck my face if I stand there and dicker with them. I could leave three injured ‘Mechs behind me…or I could go for broke and leave two dinged Rookie Greens and a dead Timber Wolf. The choice is no choice at all; I bull past the Highlander and Cataphract and chase down that Timber Wolf, putting that same bend he disappeared behind to work covering my butt. While the Rookie Greens are getting in each other’s way trying to turn around and get to me, I finish off the enemy Timber Wolf. By this point I have amber CT and red armor in most other places, but I still have armor over my entire ‘Mech and my team STILL hasn’t quite gotten the message, though a few blue Doritos are starting to nose around. We’re still a few twists of the gully away from base, and I’m still the only blue-teamer between our enemy and a humiliating cap loss.

NO PROBLEM. WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?!

I turn my Timber Butt right back around and charge around the gully, looking for that Cataphract. In the tight quarters of the gully the two Rookie Greens are getting in each other’s way as much as they are helping each other, and I maneuver to maximize that, using the Wolf’s speed to run around the NubLander and foul his aim while I work on the NubbaPhract. They’ve taken some beatings from the base’s LRM fire, and by this time the rest of my team is FINALLY starting to pay attention as I’m starting to get a few spotting assists. Nevertheless, there’s nobody else in knife range with me at the moment, so it’s up to me. I put one of them between me and the other as often as I can, try and force them to think instead of fight, and with a few well-placed Gauss shots and enough godawful laser fusillades that I’ve got a nice little steam bath going in my cockpit, I manage to core out the NubbaPhract as well.

By this time I’m more dinged than not; my right shoulder and leg are both orange and I’ve got either orange or red armor everywhere else, including the dome. I’m at 46% integrity and there’s still a Highlander to deal with, but s’far as I’m concerned, that’s all right. I’ve personally dropped a Timber Wolf and a Cataphract both and swung the Assault kill counter from 0-1 enemy favor to 3-1 our favor as my team picks someone off in the sniper fight before they get their scheiss together and notice that two of their number have been fighting for victory on our own doorstep. I resign myself to impending fiery demise and turn around to face down that Highlander, determined to see if I can’t make it three for three, JUST BECAUSE I’M THAT AWESOME.

Except no need. I turn around, rake a few more lasers across the guy while waiting on his paperdoll – I’ve taken a few potshots at him throughout the rest of the fight as well, when I didn’t have good shots at either the Timber Wolf or the NubbaPhract – and then I see a batch of LRMs plow into him and knock him over. My team has arrived to help! I’m beat to crap but still somehow functional and dangerous, with 100% of my armament and mobility remaining, and now the kill counter is up to something like 5-2, the beginning of a landslide victory that we carry on to a final crushing win.

I don’t get much more work done by that point as I’m badly out of position for the rest of the fight, but I still end the match with 488 damage, two kills, and a handful of assists. As well as the knowledge that I avenged my light pilot in as crushingly thorough a manner as anyone could have wished, ensured that his final forlorn UAV did not go to waste, and also the knowledge that I went toe-to-toe with more than three times my own weight of metal and not only survived, BUT KICKED THAT WEIGHT ADVANTAGE RIGHT IN THE HIP ACTUATORS.

Were the enemy pilots kind of butt, in bad fits? Of course, but that’s not even really the point. The point is that even a great pilot can’t make up for that kind of weight advantage if he vacillates or lets it paralyze him. Even if a good pilot had recognized the weight disadvantage and simply disengaged rather than push the fight, we would have been dealing with over two hundred tons on our flanks, threatening our base and shooting our butt armor.

But they didn’t get to do that, because of one guy who decided that an intelligent fit of berserker battle-rage was the proper response. They didn’t get to pick off turrets and gluteal armor and split my team’s focus, they got to deal with an angry goddamned tiger tearing out their livers in close proximity, and even if they beat that tiger half to death, they got beaten all the way to death themselves and we won the game handily because my team got to power-play the enemy team while I was off making my armor do its job in the rear lines.

This game came immediately after I pegged over 700 damage with three kills and six assists in another Canyon Network game with the same 'Mech, and yet I’m far more proud of my meager 488 w/2 kills. Because those kills were mine, beginning to end, and because I know for a fact that my decision to turn around and stop that thrust at our base, even if I had to do it alone, made a significant difference in the team’s eventual victory.

THAT is why Timidity Is Not A Tactic. THAT is the sort of focused, well-directed aggression that wins games. Do you charge across an open field into the teeth of multiple Lurmboats’ distance fire? Of course not, that would be stupid. But if nobody ever risked the odds and took a calculated gamble…well, then I wouldn’t have such a great story to tell, would I?

Timidity. It’s a failing, not a tactic.

Edited by 1453 R, 16 September 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[K0M3D14N]

In spite of you being a filthy Clanner, that may be the greatest write-up of a combat action I've seen of MWO yet. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

[Void Angel]

Not everyone is born with a soul, Komedian - some people come from test tubes instead. =P

[K0M3D14N]

Void Angel, on 16 September 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Not everyone is born with a soul, Komedian - some people come from test tubes instead. =P

I guess they can't help that they're disgusting, soulless monsters.

[1453 R]

Hey - I'm a disgusting soulless monster that wins games. Those squishy misty things just get in the way anyways.

[White Bear 84]

Damon Howe, on 19 October 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Every now and then you'll have someone in the team chat type "PUSH". Usually, this is not without merit. Usually, it comes from a player or players who either A) know what they're doing or have some knowledge about the overall battle that gives them at least some reasoning to call for a combined forward effort to break the enemy's back.

Now, when the call goes out, PUGs may push. Some may even push hard. But when they start coming under fire, they suddenly stop whatever they're doing and start looking for cover and backing up. Typically they die about five seconds later, but not before they've held up their own team long enough to get into position to roflstomp whatever 'push' you were hoping to make. THIS is what really "grinds my gears" when it comes to PUG timidity. The PUSH is supposed to break the back of the enemy force by overwhelming firepower. Naturally, the guys upfront are GOING to take the worst of it. Likely, they will also die first. But any successful pushes will have these results before the enemy gets completely overwhelmed and destroyed. Its the stop, the 'pause' the hesitation that kills not only the push but your entire friendly team.

And PUGs LOVE to hesitate.

They fear dieing quickly, and thus seal their own death. Same for the pugs who hestiate behind the first wave to die, and then seeing they're down 4 mechs after a minute decide to do their own charge to break the line...but by then its too late and they only offer their juicy mech parts to the mech gods as sacrifice for their efforts. So please, pugs, no matter how stupid it may seem, when the charge order is given, freakin' CHARGE balls-to-the-wall until you find yourself on the other side or a corpse, but at least you'll be a corpse that made the enemy turn tail and run!

You sir have my vote.

I love it when you have a team that's something like 8-4 and you call for a combined charge to overwhelm the remaining mechs, but everyone plays peekaboo, giving away free shot untill all of a sudden the team has lost 8-12. ggclose.

Timidity and attempting to maintain a high KDR is the fastest way to defeat. Note though that timidity should not be confused with patience (i.e. waiting for the enemy to make their move e.g. for ambush or counter manouevre). If you are going to push, go the full 100 yards! Especially if your team has a lance that has managed to flank and catch the enemies attention - when they have their backs to the majority of the team that is prime time for taking out mechs. Cannot believe how many times have seen this opportunity literally thrown away, ending up with the lance 1st getting stomped then the remaining team getting stomped after that.

I also think some people need to get over being given orders. Often it is from someone who knows what they are doing or where the enemy are coming from. Being a little **** about it is not contributing to teamplay..

WB

[Seeker Kirov]

The real strange thing about people who focus on KDR in MW:O is that KDR is a very poor indicator of your skills. Having a high KDR really means two things - you don't die much and/or you are good at getting the last shot on an enemy. Because it takes a decent amount of clicking to bring down a 'Mech, it is almost always a group effort. This is also why assist counts are consistently high. I'm not saying it's a useless metric, just that you can't really view it in this game as you would in BF or something.

[Void Angel]

Well, it's not really strange - it's an easy stat to focus on because it's so simple, and such a common stat in other games. You're right, however; it's a poor metric by itself. The problem is that "I average X experience per match" is a much more nebulous metric- and that we are focused on fighting the enemy team, which encourages a focus on damage and kills.

White Bear 84, on 16 September 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

I also think some people need to get over being given orders. Often it is from someone who knows what they are doing or where the enemy are coming from. Being a little **** about it is not contributing to teamplay.

That's post-modernism for you - but you're absolutely right. Even if the orders are stupid, either support the team anyway or ignore them - but in either case shut up. Unless you think you might be able to offer, quickly and without rudeness, a better way, you'll just annoy your team and make them play stupider.. er. It's actually a proven fact that ticking people off impairs their judgement; so whatever you do, don't get into fights in chat.

[MadLibrarian]

Just going to throw another tip in the jar. Don't wait for your team to do all the stuff you're going to whine about later. Talk early, often, and as specifically as possible so you don't have to whine after you die.

Whining and insulting people doesn't inform them for next time, it just teaches them to whine, insult, and blame their team too. Teach people tips nicely, and tell the whiners to play in the group queue.

Honestly though, the bigger problem is that voice comms aren't built in.