783 replies to this topic

[0 sMiLeY 0]

Well, to put it real simply. This is a game that requires teamwork. As I see it. I have 2 lrms builds that I use for fire support for my team. A Cat and AN Awesome, but I do not hide. I stay at the back of our pack and try my best to rain fire down upon mine enemies. Sometimes it works great, sometimes not, but even with those builds, you can't stay out of the fight or you aren't doing any good. :-)

[Void Angel]

Hauser, on 23 January 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

1. The problem with those LRM Atlases is that they do not advance aggressively enough. They can not lay down the focus fire that is required to win a match. Granted, unlike Awesomes, Atlases simply don't have the speed for that. Hence them not being the best LRM platforms. Though I wouldn't call the setup useless, the way the mech is commonly played is.

2. The same argument holds for sniping. If you don't help with the focus fire you're not helping much at all.

3. As for scouts, no they should not peak their head over a ridge. They should however discover where the enemy is. Something you can do in other ways then walking straight into the front line.

In addition to the points you mentioned about LRM-Boat Atlases, my beef with the build is that it's simply outperformed by the Stalker. The only reason to boat with an Atlas (in a PuG) is to take advantage of the ECM - but if you're lobbing missiles from long-range, your ECM is at long range, too. On the other hand, if you move in, you expose yourself to interception without the close-range firepower to deal with your enemies. An in either case, the Stalker has more firepower.

[Rejarial Galatan]

LarkinOmega, on 23 January 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

All those quotes support Void's position. Please don't try and reframe an argument that you do not understand.

no, they support actions that void seems to deem cowardice. next please.

[LarkinOmega]

Rejarial Galatan, on 23 January 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

no, they support actions that void seems to deem cowardice. next please.

Have a nice time posting on these forums, you'll fit right in with the rest of the community, not letting logic affect you.

[Rejarial Galatan]

LarkinOmega, on 23 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Have a nice time posting on these forums, you'll fit right in with the rest of the community, not letting logic affect you.

cute. I must be the only who see's the logic of Sun Tzu stating that, winning with the greatest possible ease or leaving the field of strife to return again as valiant and reliable tactics that are anything but cowardly, while others state that tactics like Ninja Capping or fleeing a fight when the odds are clearly NOT in favor for the guy choosing to RUN means cowardice. No, I think it is the majority who think a sound tactical retreat is cowardly have the logic issues.

[Solis Obscuri]

[Void Angel]

Rejarial Galatan, on 23 January 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

cute. I must be the only who see's the logic of Sun Tzu stating that, winning with the greatest possible ease or leaving the field of strife to return again as valiant and reliable tactics that are anything but cowardly, while others state that tactics like Ninja Capping or fleeing a fight when the odds are clearly NOT in favor for the guy choosing to RUN means cowardice. No, I think it is the majority who think a sound tactical retreat is cowardly have the logic issues.

Feel free to explain how we can "leave the field of strife to return again," other than disconnecting. This is pretty much par for the course with your mistreatment of Sun Tzu, as I've pointed out in more detail already. In fact, feel free to start responding to the thread at any time, rather than railing against nonsense arguments that exist only in your head. You obviously haven't read most of the on-topic posts in this thread - I'm mystified as to why you think misquoting Sun Tzu qualifies you to have an opinoin on posts which you have not read.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I will be blunt here. We are on two very different pages. And i will end all of this like this: I think of you and your ideals how I do. I know what I read when I read Sun Tzu, and I will operate as such. You go about your way, I shall go mine, we shall never meet in the middle, for there is no middle for us. We can go back and forth until we draw our lasts breaths in our mortal coils, but, suffice it to say, we are two immovable objects on this, each thinking the other is wrong. Well, there is an even simpler truth to this: you play your way, and I shall my way. end of this. This is me leaving this battle as there is no clean path to victory for either of us.

[Tincan Nightmare]

I don't understand the backlash against void on this one, maybe people are misunderstanding his viewpoint. I have a recent match that highlights exactly what he is saying. It was Frozen City, and my team marched up to 'Cowards Ridge' like most do, and began the typical 'move up, shoot a little, then back up' that normally ensues. Unfortunately we didn't realize in time that we weren't doing it with the ENTIRE enemy team. The first I found this out was when I got the incoming missile alert when an SRM Cat lit me up from behind along with a Dragon and at least one other mech. This trio had gone thru the tunnel and hit us in the ***, to a good match win for them. Voids point about scouts is very valid here, in that if we had known we were only facing a portion of the enemy team to our front and another moving up behind, we could have used this to our advantage and were instead defeated. I don't think he's suggestion scouts should rush forward and die, but that they do indeed need to 'scout' to make use of their greater speed. Similarly, the point he made about sniping was that a sniper that can't see the enemy to shoot is useless, especially if he won't move to get into a firing position beause hes to worried about his kill/death ratio.

So are we going to bust out Mushashi's 'Book of Five Rings' or Machiaveli's 'The Prince' next to try and blast him for a post that basically comes down to suporting your teammates and making sure you contribute to what is a team game. (I'll apoligize in advance if I misspelled those names, to lazy to check .) Lets just all get along and throw coherent light and high velocity slugs at each other .

[Rejarial Galatan]

Tincan Nightmare, on 23 January 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I don't understand the backlash against void on this one, maybe people are misunderstanding his viewpoint. I have a recent match that highlights exactly what he is saying. It was Frozen City, and my team marched up to 'Cowards Ridge' like most do, and began the typical 'move up, shoot a little, then back up' that normally ensues. Unfortunately we didn't realize in time that we weren't doing it with the ENTIRE enemy team. The first I found this out was when I got the incoming missile alert when an SRM Cat lit me up from behind along with a Dragon and at least one other mech. This trio had gone thru the tunnel and hit us in the ***, to a good match win for them. Voids point about scouts is very valid here, in that if we had known we were only facing a portion of the enemy team to our front and another moving up behind, we could have used this to our advantage and were instead defeated. I don't think he's suggestion scouts should rush forward and die, but that they do indeed need to 'scout' to make use of their greater speed. Similarly, the point he made about sniping was that a sniper that can't see the enemy to shoot is useless, especially if he won't move to get into a firing position beause hes to worried about his kill/death ratio.

So are we going to bust out Mushashi's 'Book of Five Rings' or Machiaveli's 'The Prince' next to try and blast him for a post that basically comes down to suporting your teammates and making sure you contribute to what is a team game. (I'll apoligize in advance if I misspelled those names, to lazy to check .) Lets just all get along and throw coherent light and high velocity slugs at each other .

This could have been completely avoided if PGI wasnt so abusive to the Battletech Genre. What I mean is, it is absurd to think that they think NOT having a fully operational 360 degree radar, as CANON states you SHOULD have as a standard feature is more tactical than having a fully formed picture of just what the hell is going on around your mech. IF they were not so absurd as to basically say: You want your precious 360 degree radar, you have 2 options: pay us real money for MC, then convert your XP, OR take forever to slow grind 15,000GXP. either way, this is abuse to BTU and those of us who want to adhere as close to canon/lore as possible.

[Abivard]

I pity the fools who have Rejarial on their team lol

Sun tzu wrote the 'Art of War' didn't say much about battlefield tactics.

Are you going tell us Von Clauswitz was talking about gunpowder smoke when he spoke of the 'Fog of War'?
or maybe friction meant he was trying to light a match?

And how do you manage 3801 posts and not make sense once?

[Tincan Nightmare]

Rejarial Galatan, on 23 January 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

This could have been completely avoided if PGI wasnt so abusive to the Battletech Genre. What I mean is, it is absurd to think that they think NOT having a fully operational 360 degree radar, as CANON states you SHOULD have as a standard feature is more tactical than having a fully formed picture of just what the hell is going on around your mech. IF they were not so absurd as to basically say: You want your precious 360 degree radar, you have 2 options: pay us real money for MC, then convert your XP, OR take forever to slow grind 15,000GXP. either way, this is abuse to BTU and those of us who want to adhere as close to canon/lore as possible.

Well I think the wanted to give more tactical options for suprise and ambush. If we all had 360 radar and could pinpoint targets all the time no one would ever be able to sneak into someones rear and knife them . And honestly in that match me and my other team members screwed the pooch. We got so caught up in the fight to our front, we didn't realize the danger from behind until it was to late. I just mark it up as a learning experience and make sure to check my six more often now.

[Rejarial Galatan]

That's the thing, all the material states rather implicitly that sneaking up on another mech is next to impossible unless very specific electronics are employed by the mech wishing to sneak up on another. Mechs have seismic sensors, magnetometers, thermal sensors, radar, and a whole host of other sensor's that make sneaking up virtually impossible. The lack of a proper sensor package is leading to rather dubious attack strategies, that are sadly becoming the norm along with bull rushing into death match after death match. IF this game lives long enough to see CW placed in, in FULL, things will change, they have to, or well, just watch as Clan Wolf or Jade Falcon or any of the other CANON clan's steam roll the IS as all the IS pilots keep up the dubious strategies.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Rejarial Galatan, on 23 January 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

That's the thing, all the material states rather implicitly that sneaking up on another mech is next to impossible unless very specific electronics are employed by the mech wishing to sneak up on another. Mechs have seismic sensors, magnetometers, thermal sensors, radar, and a whole host of other sensor's that make sneaking up virtually impossible. The lack of a proper sensor package is leading to rather dubious attack strategies, that are sadly becoming the norm along with bull rushing into death match after death match. IF this game lives long enough to see CW placed in, in FULL, things will change, they have to, or well, just watch as Clan Wolf or Jade Falcon or any of the other CANON clan's steam roll the IS as all the IS pilots keep up the dubious strategies.

Well I don't disagree with you, mechs are packed with all you listed in the sourcebooks and novels, but it would be fairly difficult to implement in game. And I think one of the Gray Death novels mentioned that mechwarriors can sometimes get overwhelmed by the amount of data and still get suprised by something they missed. You just have to think of MWO as operating under the Double Blind rules. Plus hopefully some new maps will be rolling out, all options look the same when you fight over the same terrain over and over again.

[Void Angel]

Rejarial Galatan, on 23 January 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

I will be blunt here. We are on two very different pages. And i will end all of this like this: I think of you and your ideals how I do. I know what I read when I read Sun Tzu, and I will operate as such. You go about your way, I shall go mine, we shall never meet in the middle, for there is no middle for us. We can go back and forth until we draw our lasts breaths in our mortal coils, but, suffice it to say, we are two immovable objects on this, each thinking the other is wrong. Well, there is an even simpler truth to this: you play your way, and I shall my way. end of this. This is me leaving this battle as there is no clean path to victory for either of us.

This is you leaving the thread without having once offered anything of value to the discussion. You have not attacked any ideas I actually hold; you have not even attempted to deal with any rebuttal of your false claims, nor have you even acknowledged the empirically false claims you've made (the weapon carrying ability of the Stalker comes to mind.) In short, you have attempted to rely on arrogant vitriol and grandiose pronouncements to carry the day. For my part, I've offered facts in refutation of every criticism you've raised - and you have offered no facts in answer.

For the third time, keep your word and be gone. The Black Knight routine was really only funny once.

[Vanguard319]

Void Angel, on 23 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Well, the problem is that you're confusing overwatch with recon. As a light 'mech, your primary role is that of a recon unit. No other unit can move as fast as you can - and while you certainly can swap down to a 54kph speed to fit in more weapons (if you'll permit me a clear-case example) you won't be properly utilizing your chassis with that build. ECM is great for convoy escort duty if you have extras, but your team can stay out of sight using terrain if you're the only ECM - and any non-ECM scout will be instantly detected as soon as he pops into line of sight with the enemy. Remember, the SR-71 was the first stealth aircraft developed by the US - a pure recon bird which was only abandoned because satellites could do the job with greater endurance and no risk of human life.

Simply put, caution becomes cowardice when it overrides the needs of the mission. If you'll recall, nowhere do I advocate running at the enemy in a drooling display of moronic recklessness. But too many times (particularly at Coward's Ridge in Frozen City) I see a movement to contact degenerate into a piecemeal sniping match until one side or another gets their act together and moves in force - and that side usually wins. What I'm trying to do here is teach people how to be on that side.

You make a fair enough arguement, I should have mentioned my Raven only has a top speed of 101 kph, 113 w speed tweak. (I traded max speed for improved defense, and maximum sensor range.) I am well aware that as a recon unit, I will be avoiding direct contact, but I do like to have cover fire in the event I have to make a tactical retreat. (say a strong guard is posted at my infiltration point.) I can understand where you are coming from as far as Coward's Ridge, especially in regards to the importance of manuevring in modern warfare. but from my own experience, moving over that ridge in force only works when your opponents aren't coordinated, if they have a strong defense in place, the force that charges over the ridge is liable to get decimated; Unless you are intimately familiar with the playstyles of the people on the opfor, you have to assume that they are competent. (underestimating your opponent is the worst thing a commander can do after all.)

Overall, cresting the ridge is generally a bad idea, due to the lack of cover, the fact that most mechs are not generally capable of "hull-down" manuevring, and the general assumption that the ridge is the most likely avenue from which your opponents will attack. I've actually seen rushes from the tunnel and Jenner alley that were highly successful because the other side didn't anticipate the possiblity of a massed attack from those directions.

And I do agree with you, anyone who thinks an Atlas is an effective missile boat deserves to be shot.

[Pandamcpanda]

Once again void, your comments are hilarious at best, in vanilla wow hwl was a contest who could get the most honor. Guess what? you needed to win to get honor since kills were worthless after the 3rd time. If you spent more then 5 mins in an ab or wsg, you weren't getting enough honor for the end of the week. Wining back then was everything. Like i said previously, your comments on wow just show your a clueless scrub. What was your highest arena rating? challenger? You came to these mech warrior forums to whine about pugs that don't match your playstyle. Got a problem with pugs? go drop in 8 mans only, I'm sure someone is stupid enough to take you for a few games.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<sigh> <cracks a beer and sits atop his atlas and watches>

[Void Angel]

Tincan Nightmare, on 23 January 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Well I don't disagree with you, mechs are packed with all you listed in the sourcebooks and novels, but it would be fairly difficult to implement in game. And I think one of the Gray Death novels mentioned that mechwarriors can sometimes get overwhelmed by the amount of data and still get suprised by something they missed. You just have to think of MWO as operating under the Double Blind rules. Plus hopefully some new maps will be rolling out, all options look the same when you fight over the same terrain over and over again.

Even the "canon" materials contain instances of 'mechs being able to sneak up on each other. Although surprising enemy 'mechs often employs the use of deep water, camouflage and shutdown, or special countermeasure equipment, other instances can be found - notably the use of terrain, especially in an urban environment. Again, these are all in the "supporting" materials - entertainment novels and flavor text. The actual ruleset (specifically the Double Blind rules you mention) does indeed contain means whereby a 'mech can sneak up on another machine - and Guardian ECM systems certainly do interfere with nonvisual sensor spotting. The rulebook wavers always, er... wave away this fact; usually they claim that it's somehow not relevant or deflect by flaming some other poster. But the empirical fact is that the rules do contain nearly the same effect as MWO on sensor spotting. Given the generally accepted fact that not all the rules can be slavishly copied into a realtime, first-person format, book-wavers then have to asnwer a question: By what standard do they determine which rules must be exactly copied for "authentic" BattleTech? I've yet to find one that even attempts the question.

[Void Angel]

Panda, you have at this time only eleven active posts - and 5 of them are trolling this topic, to which you have added nothing. You lost the argument when you failed to rebut any of my points, and your posts started with angry vitriol and have degenerated into a verbal diarrhea of personal abuse. Your speaking priveleges are revoked, and you have been added to my ignore list. Please keep your word just once and leave the topic - you have nothing to offer here.

Vanguard319, on 23 January 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

You make a fair enough arguement, I should have mentioned my Raven only has a top speed of 101 kph, 113 w speed tweak. (I traded max speed for improved defense, and maximum sensor range.) I am well aware that as a recon unit, I will be avoiding direct contact, but I do like to have cover fire in the event I have to make a tactical retreat. (say a strong guard is posted at my infiltration point.) I can understand where you are coming from as far as Coward's Ridge, especially in regards to the importance of manuevring in modern warfare. but from my own experience, moving over that ridge in force only works when your opponents aren't coordinated, if they have a strong defense in place, the force that charges over the ridge is liable to get decimated; Unless you are intimately familiar with the playstyles of the people on the opfor, you have to assume that they are competent. (underestimating your opponent is the worst thing a commander can do after all.)

Overall, cresting the ridge is generally a bad idea, due to the lack of cover, the fact that most mechs are not generally capable of "hull-down" manuevring, and the general assumption that the ridge is the most likely avenue from which your opponents will attack. I've actually seen rushes from the tunnel and Jenner alley that were highly successful because the other side didn't anticipate the possiblity of a massed attack from those directions.

And I do agree with you, anyone who thinks an Atlas is an effective missile boat deserves to be shot.

Don't worry; they will be. =) I seriously recommend that you consider upping your speed as a light chassis, though. Particularly with today's patch removing much (though not all) of the lag shields, you're going to see a lot of fast lights, so you'll need to be able to keep up with them in order to fight their specialized light hunters. If you do choose not to go that route, just tell the team your Raven is slow right now - if they have any brains they'll understand when you stick close to the team.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 January 2013 - 10:59 PM.