14 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

There are thousands of threads about ECM, but THIS IS BETA, so I want my feedback heard.

I think ECM is all wrong in the game. It's a piece of only 1.5 tons, with no heat and drawbacks, that has a huge impact in the match. Not for one single mech, but for the whole team. Making it available to a few variants it's even worst.

The solution? use one of the following (or even better, all of them):

1- Make ECM available to ALL light and medium mechs. Mediums need some love. There is no need for the Atlas D-DC (or any heavy and assault mech) to have ECM, unless it's variant standard. ECM should not be a way to "balance" weak chassis and variants (use number of modules for this).

2- Rework it. The ECM should not avoid you to lock SSRMs and LRMs, just make the lock slower (like 50%). Well heck, if the ECM is nerfed to the point of being OPTIONAL (like the AMS and Beagle), it could be available to all mechs and variants!

3- (EDIT) The effects of ECM should be (really) restricted to 180 meters. So, you can still target normally the enemies at longer distance.

4- Make other equipment to counter ECM, like the NARC (which is useless right now) and Beagle. Like the Rock-Scissors-and-Paper principle (the basis of any good game), ECM should have a counter which is not other ECM.

5- (EDIT) Make Command Console to counter ECM. Mechs without ECM would have a fighting chance.

6- (EDIT) Streaks become standard SRMs when affected by ECM. I know, Streaks are OP, but not being able to fire them is just wrong.

PS: You might think: what about the poor Raven 3L? - It could still shine as a trial mech or in an upcoming (we hope) Stock-only game mode.

PPS: Why, for Gods sake, the weakest Spider variant (5V) isn't the one to have ECM?

Edited by Odanan, 22 January 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Fatal Flaw 1989]

I havent experienced MWO above 3fps yet so havent rly played it (new pc soon) if ECM stops people being able to lock onto them then a narc should light them back up for a limited amount of time say kind of giving scouts another job to light up ECM opponents for the LRM Mechs to smash... I dunno as havent experienced it yet but I always thought the narc missile systemd was built for this, if I am wrong in any of what I have just said then i apologise and if someone could correct me id be grateful

[Odanan]

From the Sarna.net:

Quote

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam aBeagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]

As you can see, in tabletop, the ECM has no effect against Streak SRMs. The devs probably tried to "balance" the SSRM (because the whole concept of fire-and-forget is completely overpowered).

Edited by Odanan, 20 January 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Jale]

Scout mechs should have to have different ECM and BAP benefit from other roles. That is why ECM and BAP (and other similar equipment) are significant in scout roles.

[focuspark]

Don't agree that light mechs are the only ones who can benefit from BAP and/or ECM. Fixing ECM is easy: remove it's cloaking power, actually limit it's effects to 180m, and remove guided missile lock on from the game.

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 20 January 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

1- Make ECM available to ALL light and medium mechs. Atlas D-DC (or any heavy and assault mech) shouldn't have ECM. ECM should not be a way to "balance" weak chassis and variants (use number of modules for this).

There are several Heavy and Assault 'Mechs that at one point or another mount Guardian ECM. Examples include:
THG-12K Thug
KGC-008B King Crab
JM7-F JagerMech
HTM-28Tr Hatomoto-Chi
QKD-5Mr Quickdraw
GHR-7K Grasshopper
AWS-9Q and AWS-9Ma Awesome
CTF-4L Cataphract
STK-3Fb Stalker
Prime variant of the Hellbringer/"Loki"

Given that all of the above are canonical examples, I would disagree with the notion of necessarily restricting ECM to only the Light and Medium classes.

As an alternative: perhaps ECM should merely be more prevalent among the Light and Medium classes, with a greater number of Light and Medium chassis having a greater number of variants (both overall, and in relation to the number of Heavy and Assault chassis and variants) that can equip it?
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Odanan, on 20 January 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

2- Rework it. The ECM should not avoid you to lock SSRMs and LRMs, just make the lock slower (like 50%). Well heck, if the ECM is nerfed to the point of being OPTIONAL (like the AMS and Beagle), it could be available to all mechs and variants!

Actually, ECM is supposed to heavily interfere with a BattleMech's sensors (with the TT rules allowing a 90%+ chance of the 'Mech being completely unable to detect an ECM carrier!)... which in turn interferes with the abilities of its Targeting-Tracking System to locate, identify, track, and lock on to a target... which in turn makes it far more difficult to achieve and/or maintain a missile lock.
The in-depth explanations (including the relevant quotations and citations from the source material) can be read here and here.
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Odanan, on 20 January 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

3- Make other equipment to counter ECM, like the NARC (which is useless right now) and Beagle. Like the Rock-Scissors-and-Paper principle (the basis of any good game), ECM should have a counter which is not other ECM.

First, "the Rock-Scissors-Paper principle" is not necessarily or always "the basis of any good game"; there are times where a game (along with its players) would be better served by being build with the notion of "perfect imbalance" in mind.

Secondly, BattleTech has two other devices that are capable of creating an ECCM (ECM Counter Mode) field:

• Command Console - In BattleTech, a Cockpit Command Console can gain a number of abilities by connecting to satellites and turning those satellites abilities toward the battlefield. In tthe case of scientific satellites (as described on page 195 of Tactical Operations), "the sensors that monitor the various types of energies produced by a planet can be turned into a large scale ECCM suite" and "For an ECCM, a scientific satellite equals a single ECCM suite, but it covers the entire playing area". Imagine an ECCM ("ECM on Counter Mode") field that can cover the entire map, all at once...
  
• Communications Equipment - In BattleTech, "any unit mounting 3 to 6 tons of Communications Equipment (BattleMechs, combat vehicles, aerospace and conventional fighters automatically posses a basic amount of communication equipment as part of their cockpit and control systems equivalent to 1 ton.) can generate an ECCM field the same size as that generated by an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM, though only equal in strength to half its weight" while "a unit with 7 or more tons can do so equal to 1 ECM suite".

(Of note is the aforementioned AWS-9Ma, used by Adam Steiner during the latter part of his mission to liberate the planet Somerset from Clan Jade Falcon (the storyline of the BattleTech cartoon) - it mounts a Guardian ECM Suite and a Command Console and two extra tons of Communications Equipment (for a total of three tons, once the ton built into every 'Mech's cockpit is accounted for).)

Thirdly: I think that it could be an interesting and beneficial deviation from the BattleTech rules if a single ECM suite in ECCM/"Counter" mode could adversely affect mulltiple ECM suites in ECM/"Disrupt" mode.
However, it shouldn't be a complete counter - two or more enemy ECMs should be able to partially overcome a single ECCM, and vice versa - with the degree of remaining disruption being a function of how many ECM and ECCM suites are present:

• one ECCM vs one ECM: ECCM completely negates ECM
  
• one ECCM vs "n" ECM (for n>1): ECCM effectiveness is reduced to 1/n (e.g. one ECCM vs 3 ECM reduces the effectiveness of the ECCM to 1/3 (33%))
  
• one ECM vs "m" ECCM (for m>1): ECCM completely negates ECM
  
• "m" ECCM vs "n" ECM (for m>n): ECCM completely negates ECM
  
• "m" ECCM vs "n" ECM (for m<n): overall ECCM effectiveness is reduced to m/n (e.g. 3 ECCM vs 5 ECM reduces the overall effectiveness of the combined ECCM to 3/5 (60%))
  
• "m" ECCM vs "n" ECM (for m=n): ECCM completely negates ECM

I think that might satisfy most complaints, while generally reamaining true to the TT rules.

Your thoughts?

[White Bear 84]

Odanan, on 20 January 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

1- Make ECM available to ALL light and medium mechs. Atlas D-DC (or any heavy and assault mech) shouldn't have ECM. ECM should not be a way to "balance" weak chassis and variants (use number of modules for this).

LOL, i almost had a heart attach i laughed so hard. ECM is more annoying on lights than it is on an atlas, god, can you imagine streak mediums or even the jenner with ECM?! It blows my mind that this would even occur as a suggestion...

[TyGeR STD]

I see a lot of problems with ECM the way it is now. The Guardian ECM we have in the game now only needs a few changes.

1). It should not be as small as it is now. It weight should be more then 1.5 tons. I think it should take 3 crit slots and be around 5 tons.

2). In Disrupt mode ECM should scramble ALL ability for ANYONE in the bubble to use locking weapons. Friend, Foe, it doesn't matter, if you are inside this bubble you can not lock onto a target, you can not be locked onto. it makes a total locking blackout. This is only countered by Narc and Tag.

3). In counter mode it counters a Foe with ECM so they can now be locked onto. It also gives you the ability to use your locking weapons. Any foe being countered now shows up on radar normally as if they didn't have ECM because it is being countered. The person that is useing ECM in counter mode shows up on radar normally because there ECM is now countering the ability of another ECM to hide the user.

Now for someone that doesn't want to gave Guardian ECM for the team, there should be the solo ECM suit (i forget the battle tech name). It should be applyed to the mech like Endo and Fero armor. It takes 1 crit slot in each arm, each leg, and the CT. (not the head) this suit is 2 tons and only has the disrupt mode on and off. When it is on it works like Guardian ECM, but only for yourself, no bubble effect. your ability to lock on a target is removed wile the suit is on. This can be bypassed by Narc or Tag. when the suit is turned off everything is normal.

Both of these suits turn off immediately when keyed to turn off Both suits have a 5 sec power up time from when you turn them on to the time they are active. thus stops players from abuseing the ability by soaking it on and off.

these ideas aren't perfect, and may need tweeking. but I think they would put us on a good start to fixing the issues we have now.

[Rangdel]

Me and a couple friends agree that ECM is the best, if a bit overpowered, 1.5 ton upgrade. We also agree that it should be at least 3 separate componants and at worst 2. In 3 different components would be DISRUPT (mess with targets sensors and radar only if they are within 180 meters), COUNTER (counter other ECM users effects), and INVIS (make people within 180 meters INVISIBLE to radar and sensors). Split in 2 different components would be do you want to a DISRUPT or COUNTER?

Maybe PPC's should cause electrical problems and disable it for like 2 seconds or something. Maybe when taking damage that rocks a cockpit, like missiles or auto cannons, it should flicker or be fuzzy for a split second.

At the moments we believe that it is overpowered but it shouldn't be removed...the tactical possibilities are great but for 1.5 tons it is too good and in some instances makes other variants of the same mech almost obsolete.

Edited by Rangdel, 22 January 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[Tharkan Stuermer]

Rangdel, on 20 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

I would make ECM at least 2 different components. Me and a couple friends agree that it is the best 1.5 ton upgrade. We also agree that it should be at least 3 separate componants and at worst 2. In 3 different components would be DISRUPT (mess with targets sensors and radar only if they are within 180 meters), COUNTER (counter other ECM users effects), and INVIS (make people within 180 meters INVISIBLE to radar and sensors). Split in 2 different components would be do you want to a DISRUPT or COUNTER?

Maybe PPC's should cause electrical problems and disable it for like 2 seconds or something. Maybe when taking damage that rocks a cockpit, like missiles or auto cannons, it should flicker or be fuzzy for a split second.

At the moments we believe that it is overpowered but it shouldn't be removed...the tactical possibilities are great but for 1.5 tons it is too good and in some instances makes other variants of the same mech almost obsolete.

+1

[Odanan]

Strum Wealh, on 20 January 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Secondly, BattleTech has two other devices that are capable of creating an ECCM (ECM Counter Mode) field:

• Command Console - In BattleTech, a Cockpit Command Console can gain a number of abilities by connecting to satellites and turning those satellites abilities toward the battlefield. In tthe case of scientific satellites (as described on page 195 of Tactical Operations), "the sensors that monitor the various types of energies produced by a planet can be turned into a large scale ECCM suite" and "For an ECCM, a scientific satellite equals a single ECCM suite, but it covers the entire playing area". Imagine an ECCM ("ECM on Counter Mode") field that can cover the entire map, all at once...

If Command Console is able to counter ECMs, it would help a lot. But what mechs would be able to mount it? Just the Atlas D-DC? Specific variants? Or any mech?

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 21 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

If Command Console is able to counter ECMs, it would help a lot. But what mechs would be able to mount it? Just the Atlas D-DC? Specific variants? Or any mech?

My personal preference would be to make it hard-pointed, like AMS and ECM, and to have it restricted to "Command 'Mech" variants - that is, any "-DC" variant and those few non-"-DC" variants that come with it (e.g. AWS-9Ma).

A list of variants (including chassis and variants yet to be implemented and/or announced) includes, but is not necessarily limited to:

• AS7-D-DC (which I feel should lose its ECM capability to the AS7-K, but that's arguably another discussion for another time, yes? )
  
• AWS-9Ma (Adam Steiner's variant from the BT cartoon, canonized... and a potential Hero 'Mech variant for the Awesome?)
  
• CP-10-Z-DC
  
• CP-11-A-DC
  
• DRG-5K-DC (base 'Mech was mentioned in an ISN announcement)
  
• ON1-M-DC
  
• ON1-V-DC
  
• ZEU-6S-DC
  
• ZEU-9S-DC (was included in an ISN announcement)

Seems like a decent number and spread, yes?
(Also, keep in mind that SciSats are just one of six different kinds of satellite, and that SciSats in BattleTech allow for the choice of using it for ECCM over the entire map or for creating Ghost Targets over the entire map, but not both; see page 195 of TacOps for the rest of the satellites and their capabilities. )

By contrast, Communications Equipment (which, like the Command Console, can also access satellites and remote sensors) should be more universally-mountable, and is offset by the weight and space requirements - it takes 7 tons and as many criticals (which all have to be in one section of the 'Mech) to equal one counter-ECM (though, the basic 'Mech cockpit counts as one ton, so in actuality only 6 tons/crits (which, again, all have to be in the same section of the 'Mech) are required for the first Counter-ECM, with the full 7 tons/crits needed for a second or more counter-ECM).

Also, "the Clans do not use the Dual Cockpit" (from Sarna) - so, arguably, there should be no Command Consoles for Clanners, which is also supported by the Clan 'Mechs generally (and canonically) having smaller cockpits than IS 'Mechs (meaning that there would be nowhere to put a Command Console) and the whole "personal glory means looking down on non-direct-combat support roles" thing going (meaning that the Clans in general would eschew such a support role, even if they had the space).
Though, they might still get Communications Equipment, subject to the same rules as above...?

[Jale]

focuspark, on 20 January 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Don't agree that light mechs are the only ones who can benefit from BAP and/or ECM. Fixing ECM is easy: remove it's cloaking power, actually limit it's effects to 180m, and remove guided missile lock on from the game.

What?
I didn't just meant lights, there should be different modules for ECM for every chassis class. Lets you decide which one to take and as you take specific module you should be able to upgrade it to different levels (or whatever). Ofc, not just for ECM.

But we should not make ECM primary equipment, some mechs are designed for it, some not.
You can add different layers of ECM and BAP like "tyger std" and "strum wealh"

Edited by Jale, 21 January 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[focuspark]

If ECM's effects were limited to the 180m radius then it would be a situtational component no better or worse than BAP. The problem with ECM today is that it interferes with 'mech sensor everywhere on the battlefield. The idea that it protects all allies within 180m is actually that it attacks the sensors of everyone on the battlefield, regardless of distance to do so.

Instead, ECM should only hamper 'mechs within 180m. Yes, this means offering no LRM shield. I'm no fan of LRM 'mechs (see my comprehensive suggestion for fixing LRM, SSRM, and ECM) but using a hack like ECM to fix a problem like LRM is just making things worse.

[Odanan]

focuspark, on 21 January 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

If ECM's effects were limited to the 180m radius then it would be a situtational component no better or worse than BAP. The problem with ECM today is that it interferes with 'mech sensor everywhere on the battlefield. The idea that it protects all allies within 180m is actually that it attacks the sensors of everyone on the battlefield, regardless of distance to do so.

Instead, ECM should only hamper 'mechs within 180m. Yes, this means offering no LRM shield. I'm no fan of LRM 'mechs (see my comprehensive suggestion for fixing LRM, SSRM, and ECM) but using a hack like ECM to fix a problem like LRM is just making things worse.

Agreed!