62 replies to this topic

[Wrenchfarm]

Took some time tonight to write a blog looking at why the Spider is such an underachiever in the current game balance and what MWO could learn from TF2.

TL:DR edition:

Uninspired map design holds the Spider back more than streaks and crap weapons.

No need for 12 jumpjets when there is nowhere meaningful to jump to.

Hard-counters and drastic differences in power are OK when other advantages compensate for them.

Scout has never needed to be re-designed or buffed, in fact he has become even more of an extreme mobile-glass-cannon over the years. Difference is TF2 maps and meta-game support his talents and role.

Need for more varied game-modes, a readjustment of the way end match credits/XP are awarded.

[Mechteric]

So hats it is?


Just kidding of course! But while I think newer better maps will be great, do not forget that not only are jump jets likely getting a buff at some point to provide faster lift, but also once regular weapons have a better chance at dealing proper damage to light mechs (lag-shield less), then perhaps it might be more worthwhile to not have to rely on SSRMs.

[Carnivoris]

Honestly, there are some really really good Spider pilots out there. There's nothing wrong with the Spider and I was one of the first to pan it. After I saw a guy get 5 kills and over 1000 damage with it, I can no longer say it has no place on the battlefield.

[Sean von Steinike]

My friend is often the top scorer when in his spider.

[Krazyjim]

Sean von Steinike, on 22 January 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

My friend is often the top scorer when in his spider.

H-H-HOW?!?!?

[Wrenchfarm]

Carnivoris, on 22 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Honestly, there are some really really good Spider pilots out there. There's nothing wrong with the Spider and I was one of the first to pan it. After I saw a guy get 5 kills and over 1000 damage with it, I can no longer say it has no place on the battlefield.

My opinion has soften on it a bit too.

My first impression with the 5V was that it was an abysmal flop. I still think that is true, but in a fit of foolish optimism I went ahead and picked up a 5D just so see how it does for myself.

I like it.

ECM and the arm mounted lasers really do make a big difference. While I struggled to get more than 100 damge in the 5V, I regularly do a respectable job in the 5D - probably because I'm not getting immediately speared out of the air by LRMs and streaks.

That said I still think the Spider, especially the other variants, are pretty hard done by. They simply give up too much for a non-advantage. And the real shame is that it doesn't have to be like that. With more varied and interesting maps, the extra mobility could be really meaningful and cool. But as it sits, the current 4 maps don't provide enough opportunities to let it shine.

[SI The Joker]

It won't matter. SSRMs are easy. It won't matter if there is no lag shield or not, SSRMs will still be used heavily because they require so little work to use and are so damn effective.

I do agree - larger maps would make the spider more interesting.

But I love my spiders and do... OK... in them as they are.

Folks will look at me as though I have 3 heads, but I do think that all 3 variants of the spider should have ECM to account for the lack of firepower.

[Ursh]

Krazyjim, on 22 January 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

H-H-HOW?!?!?

small profile, lag shield, and horrible hit registration

Pretty common to watch a spider run through five medium lasers and either take zero damage, or extremely minimal damage.

It's not that the players are so good, but that the mechanics of the game are not really built well for small fast mechs right now.

[Timelordwho]

SI The Joker, on 22 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

It won't matter. SSRMs are easy. It won't matter if there is no lag shield or not, SSRMs will still be used heavily because they require so little work to use and are so damn effective.

I do agree - larger maps would make the spider more interesting.

But I love my spiders and do... OK... in them as they are.

Folks will look at me as though I have 3 heads, but I do think that all 3 variants of the spider should have ECM to account for the lack of firepower.

nah, ecm just needs to be toned down so it's a utility piece rather than must have.

[F lan Ker]

S!

The "game the game" stuff is pretty dominant at the moment. People blatantly use the weaknesses of the game design while playing: netcode, missing collisions etc. What differentiates a good light pilot from a bad one to me is: The one who actually uses terrain, cover, speed and weapons optimally. Does not get target fixated, uses situational awareness to plan the attacks and disengages when situation gets too risky. Those who try to hump your leg and run through you, face hugging and such are NOT.

[Wrenchfarm]

SI The Joker, on 22 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Folks will look at me as though I have 3 heads, but I do think that all 3 variants of the spider should have ECM to account for the lack of firepower.

I feel a bit hypocritical writing an entire blog saying the Spider really needs better maps and game modes to excel... but yeah. ECM would help the Spider out a LOT. It seems very odd to me that the variant with the best hardpoints was the one to receive ECM.

Again though, I believe maps with significant obstacles (blocks of buildings, fatal crevices, deep impassable bodies of water, ect) would do more to make the Spider and other jump-jet mechs viable than just slather ECM over everything. It would be nice to have SOME reason to take a light other than the RVN-3L.

[Solomon Ward]

Always find myself running and jumping away from 2D`s and 3L`s with my Spider.

Was fun for a couple of days but nothing i can take much longer

Never topped 500 damage so Kudos to all who succeed with it.

[SI The Joker]

Timelordwho, on 22 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

nah, ecm just needs to be toned down so it's a utility piece rather than must have.

ECM is not a must have, in my opinion.

The only mechs that cause "the rage" are the ECM Raven and the ECM Commando. What's in common other than ECM? Streak missles. No one complains about the Cicada or the Spider or even the DDC very much... it's the Raven & Commando that cause rage.

Who knows... maybe streaks will be marginalized if the netcode gets fixed... but I doubt it. Not when there's an A1 that can stock 6 of them at once. I firmly believe that streaks should do about .75 less damage per missle and the rack itself should weigh more... 2.5 tons or maybe even 3.

[SI The Joker]

Wrenchfarm, on 22 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

I feel a bit hypocritical writing an entire blog saying the Spider really needs better maps and game modes to excel... but yeah. ECM would help the Spider out a LOT. It seems very odd to me that the variant with the best hardpoints was the one to receive ECM.

Again though, I believe maps with significant obstacles (blocks of buildings, fatal crevices, deep impassable bodies of water, ect) would do more to make the Spider and other jump-jet mechs viable than just slather ECM over everything. It would be nice to have SOME reason to take a light other than the RVN-3L.

Agreed totally on that second paragraph. Other than jump turns, there really aren't many good uses for jets right now.

[Skaroth]

SI The Joker, on 22 January 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

ECM is not a must have, in my opinion.

The only mechs that cause "the rage" are the ECM Raven and the ECM Commando. What's in common other than ECM? Streak missles. No one complains about the Cicada or the Spider or even the DDC very much... it's the Raven & Commando that cause rage.

Who knows... maybe streaks will be marginalized if the netcode gets fixed... but I doubt it. Not when there's an A1 that can stock 6 of them at once. I firmly believe that streaks should do about .75 less damage per missle and the rack itself should weigh more... 2.5 tons or maybe even 3.

This.

Light ECM mechs should not have missile hard points. Laser and ballistic hardpoints only on light ecm mechs and there would be 0 (legitimate) bitching about ecm.

[Mawai]

Actually, can you tell me what is wrong with the spider?

I have played the 5D through the basic XP level and thought it was pretty good. There are various decent fits for it ... ECM+AMS+2ML+MPL ... or 3ML or 2ML+LL (I saw someone with this option but haven't tried it myself). I have had matches in which I contributed 300 to 500 in total damage and accounted for some kills. If I run into a Raven-3L or Commando-2D I am likely toast but that is the same at the moment for any other light mech.

So overall, I thought it was good.

However, I would agree that the hard point layouts on the other versions are less than spectacular. In one case, it has to boat machine guns ... which could become overpowered depending on the fixes they put in for machine guns ... and in the other case it only has two energy hard points which provide very limited options ... and lower damage potential. If I had to suggest a change for the spider it would be a modest enhancement of the hard point layouts for the two versions without ECM capability.

Edited by Mawai, 22 January 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[SI The Joker]

Mawai, on 22 January 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Actually, can you tell me what is wrong with the spider?

However, I would agree that the hard point layouts on the other versions are less than spectacular. In one case, it has to boat machine guns ... which could become overpowered depending on the fixes they put in for machine guns ... and in the other case it only has two energy hard points which provide very limited options ... and lower damage potential. If I had to suggest a change for the spider it would be a modest enhancement of the hard point layouts for the two versions without ECM capability.

I don't think anything is "wrong" with the spider... but you did just point out 2 reasons why it's a bit lacking in the firepower department, which was the point made.

[Josef Nader]

The spider is going to get much, much better when the speed cap is lifted. Right now, the only reason it -can't- out run other lights is because the netcode would absolutely poop it's britches and explode if it did. When the netcode gets updated (coming this month, if the Command Chair is to be believed), the Spider is going to make even the most speed-crazed Raven and Jenner pilot look like they're standing still.

Let's see how the spider fares once that's in the game.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Skaroth, on 22 January 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

This.

Light ECM mechs should not have missile hard points. Laser and ballistic hardpoints only on light ecm mechs and there would be 0 (legitimate) bitching about ecm.

Bad news. They said they can't balance by weight because it jacks up stock variants. And the Raven 3L HAS to have 2 missile hardpoints because it comes with 2 launchers stock.

[Trauglodyte]

The only thing that is wrong with the Spider is that it isn't a Commando or a Raven. Its the same thing that haunts the Cicada. And, as was already pointed out in this thread, the one thing that those two mechs have in common, other than ECM, is the Streak SRM. Everyone knows that thing is broken and, until it gets fixed and ECM gets toned down a tad, everyone will continue to abuse those builds. And, just for the sake of arguement, can you imagine the Spider if it had two Center torso energy slots and an arm mounted SRM with 8 JJs and that amazingly small profile? People would be bitching up a storm until doomsday.

Astroniomix, on 22 January 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Bad news. They said they can't balance by weight because it jacks up stock variants. And the Raven 3L HAS to have 2 missile hardpoints because it comes with 2 launchers stock.

Want an easy way to fix Streaks? Here are the four means by which to do so:

1- push the cool down to 4s so that it matches the Md Laser
2- reduce the damage per missile from 2.5 to 2.0 (oh noz, TT values!)
3- fix the firing angles on the launcher and restrict the turning radius of the missiles
4- remove Streaks from the C3 firing system - being able to lock on through LOS for an SRM is stupid

Currently, if you have lock, you can fire missiles 90s from the launcher and have them pass through your torso to get to your target. Add to that the missiles tracking movement and you can actually hit a target that is slightly behind you. THAT is why the Raven is s

Edited by Trauglodyte, 22 January 2013 - 08:11 AM.