262 replies to this topic

[Critical Fumble]

Yokaiko, on 24 January 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Like I said they can't it takes 19,000 players at once trying to find a game to normalize the odds. That is what is required for hard class matching team against team. PLUS the added fun of trying to drop if you are the odd team out, do you want to sit there pressing launch for 15 minutes for a game to end?

. . . No it doesn't? Assuming ELO was a more or less true assessment, you could balance a team simply by waiting and sticking some below average players in with the above average ones, against a bunch of average players. I'm perfectly willing to wait more than five seconds to get the game to give me a good match. What irks me is hitting a button and immediately getting dropped into a one sided match, whichever way it goes.

Bguk, on 24 January 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Do you know that removing a ui code snippet takes longer than putting in one? I agree with the icon/counter/something so this debate would go away.

I also don't think they're defending the matchmaker, just trying to refute the idea it's not as bad out there as some would have you believe. And the other side is doing the same in reverse.

No one reasonable enough to be persuaded by statistics or a well thought out argument is going to say that pugs lose 99% of the time, and its because of THEM PREMADES *crazyeyes*

[Flolo]

Besides the far too small sample size and the selection of the samples (as already mention it is biased, as people with a good rating give it and the ones with a bad just dont care), there is a very simple reason that this stat say absolutly nothing about PUG vs PREMADE:

The op is lacking the required information. He demands that the people should be 100% puggers, but that says absolutly nothing about the games they played, as it not says wether the other 7 of their team are puggers or premades.

E.g. assume you are pugging only but you get always in a team with a 4-premade-team on your side, while it can happen that your opponents are always pure puggers. Imagine your stats coming from such people (even one or two in a sample size of 31 should be enough) everythings in your stats gets messed up.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tank Boy Ken, on 24 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Goonwisdom: Never not post, never not like!

I am so beyond liking myself.

[Viper69]

Trying to figure out if the OP just finished a statistic and graph making course. Oh and if this is his main account or just one he posts on. Im sure if we look at all his posts we will find interesting statistics like 1 common name that may appear more often liking his posts. Perhaps his real account... Hmm.

Just messing with you but really pgi has all these tools and graphs at their disposal where it matters and as long as the game gets better for everyone then whats the point of such a small sampling when pgi has access to everyones accurate stats on everything they do.

[GrabbleRus]

This is a pointless research. Since it's impossible to prove anything to those screaming in rage and seeking whatever or whoever can be made into a scapegoat so they can continue to think highly of their skill

Edited by GrabbleRus, 24 January 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 24 January 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Oh, and Serapth, I still don't think it's as big a deal as the solo players are making it out to be. So yes, without another phase out in production this is a ******** subject.

I dont think its a big deal either, until night rolls around. Then it is the biggest deal facing this game if you are a pug. Someone playing during non-US primetime probably dont comprehend what the issue is, as obviously, do people who premade. I notice it over and over and over, it goes from being a fun, fair game, to being game after game after game of 8-0 rolls. That aint fun, even if you are on the winning side... at least for me. There seems to be a huge population of people that find rolling people without competition extremely fun....

GrabbleRus, on 24 January 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

This is a pointless research. Since it's impossible to prove anything to those screaming in rage and seeking whatever or whoever can be made into a scapegoat so they can continue to think highly of their skill

You would think the people that make it all about skill, would want this issue address... to prove ... you know, it is skill and not a broken game mechanic that lets them win.

As of right now, with the current setup, it renders all skill related stats completely meaningless.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 24 January 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

I also don't think they're defending the matchmaker, just trying to refute the idea it's not as bad out there as some would have you believe. And the other side is doing the same in reverse.

See, "not as bad" is a very subjective term. See, if someone thinks they face 50% pugs, and often lose as a result, but in reality they face 30% pugs... and often lose as a result... that's "not as bad" as they expected.

That said, a broken game mechanic is still causing 30% of your games to be unfair.


We do agree though, putting the icon in, either way, will slay the boogieman. 'cause yes, there is a group, probably a large group, that blame every loss to boogieman premades. Or I suppose, it would prove there actually is a monster in the closet.

Edited by Serapth, 24 January 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 24 January 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I dont think its a big deal either, until night rolls around. Then it is the biggest deal facing this game if you are a pug. Someone playing during non-US primetime probably dont comprehend what the issue is, as obviously, do people who premade. I notice it over and over and over, it goes from being a fun, fair game, to being game after game after game of 8-0 rolls. That aint fun, even if you are on the winning side... at least for me. There seems to be a huge population of people that find rolling people without competition extremely fun....


You would think the people that make it all about skill, would want this issue address... to prove ... you know, it is skill and not a broken game mechanic that lets them win.

As of right now, with the current setup, it renders all skill related stats completely meaningless.

I play exclusively during US prime. I premade as welll as drop solo. I do not find the same results. I get stomped at times whether grouped with the 1/2/3 other guys in channel or solo. I stop at times whether grouped with the 1/2/3 other guys in channel or solo. I do not have game after game of 8-0 rolls whether in a premade or solo.

Again, the devs even know the current matchmaker is not perfect and are working towards getting it better by implementing a next phase. And probably more afterwards.

[Elandyll]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ok, this reads that a 2-4 man team will be matched against other 2-4 man teams + solo players on both sides. So if a 4man team and 4 PUGs end up on one team the MM will try to match my 2-4 man team+solo players against them. Luck of the draw determines if I am powned or not.

No.
It simply reads that while 8 man groups will only face 8 man groups, 2-4 player groups will face a mix of 2-4 player groups and solo players, in no particular forced mix (can be 2 man pre made + pug vs all pug, 4man pre made + pug vs 3man pre made + pug, all pug v pug, 2xpre mades 2man and 4man players vs all pug , etc.)

Quote

As per Phase 1

In essence, Phase 2 is just the addition of a forced 8v8 mode, everything else is as per phase 1 (which implemented the 4 player max per pre made, easily trumed by sync drops as perpetrators are themsevles saying in this very thread).

Considering Phase 1's "spirit", that PGI still hasn't disabled the ability to sync drop in more than 1 pre made per group is mind boggling.

Edited by Elandyll, 24 January 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Killerwithin]

It's as easy as this people. Well built premades(which is what every single pugger complains about) with the knowledge to work together will stomp out any solo pug or even grouped pugs(4 or 8 man) because its as simple as this, they often either have no desire to work together as a team or they have not ran together enough to understand each others tactics where as the premades are designed to work as a team and have been working together for a very long time. We also must put into effect that the premades are running mechs with real builds that again are designed to compliment team where as the solo/group pug/s might not have the mechs or equipment to compete against the premade. Drop as a pug group(8 man) and fight against a "premade" find out how fast you die.

Also everyone is understanding the term pug and the term premade right? A pug can be a group of 1-8 random people grouping together hence a pick up group you are still a pug and a premade is a set group of people that always play together and run a specific setup of mechs with specific loadouts designed to decimate you quickly. The likelyhood of the pug group taking out the premade is slim to none unless that premade makes a mistake then you just got lucky that's all.

To argue this is futile.

<EDIT>

Who cares about the graph who cares about the guys idea that he thinks pugs are exaggerating if he drops as a pug against a premade his group will die quick and painfully and if he wins either he is fighting a poor premade or is simply fighting another pug there is no other explanation.

Edited by Killerwithin, 24 January 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Ilwrath]

Serapth, on 24 January 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

We do agree though, putting the icon in, either way, will slay the boogieman. 'cause yes, there is a group, probably a large group, that blame every loss to boogieman premades. Or I suppose, it would prove there actually is a monster in the closet.

The icon or number should be there already. It looks likes the devs has taken a good look at WoT so its strange that they did not copy the markings of premades in pub play. Putting that in would kill all doubts and can only be good.

[Thirdstar]

Serapth, on 24 January 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

See, "not as bad" is a very subjective term. See, if someone thinks they face 50% pugs, and often lose as a result, but in reality they face 30% pugs... and often lose as a result... that's "not as bad" as they expected.

That said, a broken game mechanic is still causing 30% of your games to be unfair.


We do agree though, putting the icon in, either way, will slay the boogieman. 'cause yes, there is a group, probably a large group, that blame every loss to boogieman premades. Or I suppose, it would prove there actually is a monster in the closet.

The monster that you know is always preferable to the dark threats lurking in shadows. Perception is key.

[Elandyll]

Killerwithin, on 24 January 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

It's as easy as this people. Well built premades(which is what every single pugger complains about) with the knowledge to work together will stomp out any solo pug or even grouped pugs(4 or 8 man) because its as simple as this, they often either have no desire to work together as a team or they have not ran together enough to understand each others tactics where as the premades are designed to work as a team and have been working together for a very long time. We also must put into effect that the premades are running mechs with real builds that again are designed to compliment team where as the solo/group pug/s might not have the mechs or equipment to compete against the premade. Drop as a pug group(8 man) and fight against a "premade" find out how fast you die.

Also everyone is understanding the term pug and the term premade right? A pug can be a group of 1-8 random people grouping together hence a pick up group you are still a pug and a premade is a set group of people that always play together and run a specific setup of mechs with specific loadouts designed to decimate you quickly. The likelyhood of the pug group taking out the premade is slim to none unless that premade makes a mistake then you just got lucky that's all.

To argue this is futile.

You forget to mention that Pugs in essence will not/ cannot use VOIP because it is not implemented in game, giving yet another (huge) advantage over a premade, particularly to react to situations once the engagement has begun.

[Killerwithin]

Elandyll, on 24 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

You forget to mention that Pugs in essence will not/ cannot use VOIP because it is not implemented in game, giving yet another (huge) advantage over a premade, particularly to react to situations once the engagement has begun.

Yes yes this is true in the sense of those pugs that drop solo but I am also speaking of the pugs that join the US/EU servers to group together who actually know about it and are working together they still as an 8 man pug have no chance against a good premade unless they themselves can learn to work just as well together quickly and be able to setup their mechs to work together as well as them in very little time.

[Wraith05]

Cole Allard, on 24 January 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Only thing that saves him is the word "probably" he put in the header.

So, you got 31 post...and of course all from people you dont know, and OF COURSE you checked EVERYONE of them for the truth of never being in a premade? Yes, of course you did "blink-blink".

Here a 100% correct 3 step program for you:

- make a new account...its free.
- take a trial mech...
- make 10 matches...and please give you best!

from those 10 matches, 9 or 8 are lost..thats a fact...a point you can write behind your ears. Makes less work than your smartlooking sheets, and you can feel it directly.

Its people like you who delay any work on the PUG'ing players with that kind of posts.

Fact you can rage about: There are more paying customers playing PUG then there are in Premades. Just listen the TS on NGNG-Server for less that an hour to discover this and how people even talk about PUG'ers when they are in chat with friends, they get names even a dog would be ashamed of.

Tis about time to stop using PUG'ers as a filler in between gaps and let them play against each other WITHOUT any premades in between. How about that?


Just how often do you log in and get the message "premade on the other side" even BEFORE the game starts?? Hmmm? Only thing you can do then is vomit...

That stepped process is just as flawed, you would be testing out his personal skill and the effectiveness of trial mechs. Not if pug's constantly get stomped by premades.

A better personal test scenario for what he is trying to prove/disprove would be to get 20 strangers you don't know to play say 50-100 matches as a pug in whatever mech they wanted to (pugs do have custom mechs also). And have them take a screenshot of each endgame scoreboard and send it to him and he can then crunch those numbers to see what those 20 peoples win/loss was.

This could also show if most games were landslide wins/losses or not. And some other interesting things.

[Thirdstar]

Ilwrath, on 24 January 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

The icon or number should be there already. It looks likes the devs has taken a good look at WoT so its strange that they did not copy the markings of premades in pub play. Putting that in would kill all doubts and can only be good.

WoT is an excellent example and they borrowed enough elements from WoT that I'm amazed they didn't borrow this one.

CSB time.

Another PUG and I (in our TDs) held off 6 mediums/heavies in a game just a few hours ago. We killed 4 of them and heavily damaged a 5th before finally getting rammed by an excellent light tank driver. Absolutely no one raged at us and called us a dirty premade, because they could simply look at the permanent team readout along the sides and see that we were just PUGs.

My team ended up losing the round thanks to a failed overextended cap. Damn near everyone in both teams was dead though.

Edited by Thirdstar, 24 January 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Eddrick]

Statisics are always interesting. I agree with the findings.

More samples would be more convincing and give better results.

abloobloo, on 23 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

There is a relationship, just not a causal one. I made no claim that one causes the other. I posted it because I thought people might be interested in it.

People in my sample who happened to have MC in their accounts on average had higher k/d ratios than the people without.

The better K/D ratio from people who baught MC compared to the ones that didn't tells me the differance is: People who baught MC didn't use the OPS Trial Mechs. Which is almost a death sentance. A good player can do ok in one. But, it would still effect thier stats in a negitive way. Since they are gimping themselves.

[Joseph Mallan]

Elandyll, on 24 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

No.
It simply reads that while 8 man groups will only face 8 man groups, 2-4 player groups will face a mix of 2-4 player groups and solo players, in no particular forced mix (can be 2 man pre made + pug vs all pug, 4man pre made + pug vs 3man pre made + pug, all pug v pug, 2xpre mades 2man and 4man players vs all pug , etc.)

that is what I said. I will drop with 2-3 other teammates and the remainder of PUGs and I will likely face a 2-4 man + the remainder of PUGs. So if My 2 man+ 6PUGs drops against a 4man + 4 PUGs, shouldn't i be complaining as much as PUGs? I am obviously being treated Unfairly since I was only a 2 man and the other side had a full 4 man! WHy aren't I complaining that it's unfair to ME(and my teammate)?

[Critical Fumble]

Wraith05, on 24 January 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

That stepped process is just as flawed, you would be testing out his personal skill and the effectiveness of trial mechs. Not if pug's constantly get stomped by premades.

A better personal test scenario for what he is trying to prove/disprove would be to get 20 strangers you don't know to play say 50-100 matches as a pug in whatever mech they wanted to (pugs do have custom mechs also). And have them take a screenshot of each endgame scoreboard and send it to him and he can then crunch those numbers to see what those 20 peoples win/loss was.

This could also show if most games were landslide wins/losses or not. And some other interesting things.

He'd still have a gaping hole in the research. Without a control you can't legitimately say that something has an effect or not. You'd need that group playing in a premade team free environment and another containing premades. Probably not going to happen.

[Jacmac]

The OPs theory is full of conjecture. The stats or information posted by players that responded are just stats, there is nothing to show that those stats are legitimately solo player only (although anyone that posted a kill ratio like 0.4 I would tend to believe).

Anyway, It is not an exaggeration to say that solo players get run over regularly by voice communicating teams of all sizes. My stats were like the 0.4 solo-only players until I started dropping with teams only. PGI needs to create another match-making mode that allows solo-only drops. I would drop solo if there was such a mode; until there is, I will always drop with a team.