262 replies to this topic

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Thirdstar, on 23 January 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

So you are attempting to counter the assertion that individual experiences of PUGs is effected by the presence of premades in the matchmaker by stating that PUGs as a group don't lose out 'big time'.

Your question is flawed and has nothing to do with the issues that the community has brought up.

Are you even reading his posts?

[Thirdstar]

Narcisoldier, on 23 January 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Are you even reading his posts?

Yes.

[SectionZ]

So, after reading through this thread I have come to one conclusion.

Rifter, on 23 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Sorry to break this to you but you are going to need 2000+ samples to get reliable stats.

We do not have enough data points to prove Premades are detrimental to Pubs. We need at least 1,200-2,000 data point samples before we can have any clear sign that Premades ruin Pubs.

Or am I holding this chart upside down?

Off the subject of kill statistics, my time in Super Monday Night Combat has shown me that splitting up the Queue between pubs and preemades and team sizes too much, will do very bad things to a game. And that game was just 5 vs 5. Consider how many times those of us who dabble in 8 Mans fail to find a match several times in a row already.

I feel that further Queue segregation is dumb. Bad or unlucky players might live longer in the matches they get, but it won't help the game's life span.

[Raidyr]

Since the laughable gaps in actual scientific methodology have been accounted for, I'll just go with my anecdotal experience and say that when I'm playing with 3 or 4 people my win rate goes up dramatically. I usually only play with one other person and we on average win about 60% of our games (that's the number of the last two days and correlates with the overall trend). But when I get to play with 4 every few days when some friends are in town it becomes a complete stomp. We only lose one or two games out of a dozen, and those losses are more often than not because we got out-premade by a synchdrop. Against an unorganized team of 8, an organized team of 4 in min-maxed builds is laughably easy. If you are dropping in a group of 4 every time you play MWO and don't see how much of an advantage it is, I really don't know what to say.

[Rifter]

LordLeto, on 23 January 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

1,200 is usually the break off point before diminishing returns get prohibitive.

In either case 31 obviously isn't definitive, but I'll give it to the guy for actually putting in the work. I wonder what he could do with the metrics PGI has available(if they are indeed keeping them, which I hope they are).

I know 1,200 is usualy the break off point but in this particular case were are not polling the whole game population only the ones thats post on the forums so this is going to be off any way you look at it but around 2,000 should give a reliable stat at least for the forum going portion of the playerbase.

[Thirdstar]

SectionZ, on 23 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

We need at least 1,200-2,000 data point samples before we can have any clear sign that Premades ruin Pubs.

The only one who's even mentioned this is the OP.

SectionZ, on 23 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

I feel that further Queue segregation is dumb. Bad or unlucky players might live longer in the matches they get, but it won't help the game's life span.

I feel that lack of separate queues is dumb. Not sure why you mentioned bad or unlucky players or what their relationship is to the game's lifespan.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

If only "Poll: ban premades?" got the same rigorous peer review.

[Thirdstar]

Narcisoldier, on 23 January 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

If only "Poll: ban premades?" got the same rigorous peer review.

It did. I thought it was stupid and didn't vote in it. Feel better?

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Thirdstar, on 23 January 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

The only one who's even mentioned this is the OP.

Lol
http://mwomercs.com/...?q=ban+premades

[Wraith05]

Thirdstar, on 23 January 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

You clearly have no idea how to read charts either.22 of your 31 samples are AT or BELOW the 1 line. How then is the average W/L magically 1:1?

Protip: Don't start with a biased hypothesis.

Clustering sounds like a weasel word here. Why don't you just say the majority of the sample was below 1:1 W/L, you'd at least be accurate.

The average is likely around that 1 to 1 because even though a majority of points are below that 1 mark with not many going below the .5. They are not far below it, while you will see 6 points above the 2 mark of which the first one is around the 6 mark. These outliers (especially the 6th one) will throw the average off.

It would have been better had he discarded the one around the 6 mark as an outlier and done the average from the rest of the points. I also feel the median would have been a better number to use with this set of samples than the mean.

As for his hypothesis, it can be biased all it wants to be.

What matters is that he got 20+ random samples from the population he wanted to test (pug only players) and then he could do his calculations to see if the data actually supported his hypothesis or not.

[Wraith05]

Snowhawk, on 23 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Well... I think there is a little problem in your statistic because:




You asked the people from this forum..... And that makes a huge difference. Please keep in mind that gamers who are often reading in a forum are "sophisticated players". They evolve much faster then the real casual gamers who not even know the damage values of the weapons.

Considering he did this because of the threads made on these forums claiming constant pugstomp, I would think it would be safe to sample those on this forum who pug only to see if their wins/losses match up to their perceived claims. Which is what he attempted to do.

Basically he attempted to get his data from the same sources that were making the posts he was trying to disprove.

[Ilwrath]

abloobloo, on 23 January 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

You often see pugs on these forums cry foul of premades. They claim that premades ruin the game, and that pugs are constantly being wiped off the map, round after round.

Yes time to find a better game than this one. Not worth spending cash on or playing. Hopefully in the end only the premades will be left. The devs need a boot in the face. I have zero belief for the future of this game so **** it.

[Elizander]

Pretty interesting and it's too bad that not a lot more people posted their scores. As for me though, I haven't been experiencing these pubstomps since I got a little better at playing and I have an even win:loss on my most recent non-paying account even if the KD is still at 0.5 or so.

[Critical Fumble]

abloobloo, on 23 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

I wasn't asking a question about individual performance, I was asking a question about group performance. What happens when you add pugs, premades, and other factors to the current matchmaking system? Do pugs as a group lose out big time? The data suggests no.

I could accept that the numbers you give extrapolate out to the full PUG player base because A: if we take all players' w:l together we would get 1:1 and B: there is only a slightly lower chance that you would get a premade working with you rather than on the other team. It would only be a statistical issue if the PUG:premade ratio were 1:3 in 8v8 matches. No one reasonable argues that there are a wildly huge number of premade teams that cause PUGs to lose most of their matches.

However, premade imbalance is an issue of fairness in the game. Like it or not, they do have a distinct advantage against an otherwise equal set of random players. And while they probably don't cause most of what I call cascade failure 0:8 matches, they are more likely to cause them than their random drop counterparts. I have no real issue with puging in the same pool as premade teams, but the matchmaking service needs to account for premade groups.

That is what the phase 3/ELO stage is supposed to bring to the table. Now just to wait and see if it works D:

[Yokaiko]

Ilwrath, on 24 January 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Yes time to find a better game than this one. Not worth spending cash on or playing. Hopefully in the end only the premades will be left. The devs need a boot in the face. I have zero belief for the future of this game so **** it.

I detect nerdrage......so much nerdrage.

[Ilwrath]

Yokaiko, on 24 January 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I detect nerdrage......so much nerdrage.

More like nerddisappointment

But really; I cannot see any reason to keep trucking on when the matchmaker changes never comes. I was sure the improvements with the lag-shield would make the game more fun but sadly it don't because the bad matchmaking is making the game stink on a more fundamental level.

if only it was like a pizza where the topping is good but the bottom (I wonder if that is the right word?) kinda stinks. You could save that meal by scraping off the topping and just eating that, wasting 50% of it but still get somewhat satisfied. You cannot do that with this game because the matchmaker is what dictates how good the gaming experience will be. If it stinks, you get a stinker session.

So in the end the last patch don't change anything at all.

I cannot see any reason for spending cash on this game if you only pug. Can you?
-----------------------------------------------
"There are no user reviews yet - It is not possible to submit a review prior to this game's official release." stupid beta shield.

[Frostiken]

Okay first of all, idiots, stop using the term "PUG". A pick-up game / group is SEMI-ORGANIZED. A 4-man you threw together in teamspeak is a pug. "Premade"? Did you guys invent that term just for this game? Nobody in the history of gaming has used "premade" to describe a group playing together, ever.

A pub is taking everyone in a group and telling them to play football. Half the people are tripping over their own feet.

A pug is saying "okay let's play for real" and out of that group, you ask to throw together a couple of teams out of people who played football in high school or something, to weed out the idiots.

A clan is people who've played football for a while and are always getting better at it.

Get it?

A "PUB STOMP" is when an organized group intentionally plays games to destroy and humiliate disorganized players.

EDIT: Apparently this idiotic "premade" and "pug" thing is from thickos playing, of all respectable things, MMORPGs. Kind of goes to show how much a clue your average BT nerd has about real gaming. Keep grinding those purps, losers. Good thing this isn't an MMORPG, it's an FPS tank driving game.

--

Now allow me to mention this: people on forums are going to be expected to be better than your average server scrub. Being on the forum probably means you're more devoted to the game, you've probably learned things you didn't know before, and you're obviously more open to communication. Go on the Battlefield 3 forums (lol, but still) and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with KDRs below 1.8 or WLRs below 2. Statistically, obviously the WLRs have to average out at 1, but those people who have 0.7 KDRs and 0.9 WLRs are almost never active on forums. They just do their thing and you never hear a peep from them.

So now, out of an admittedly small sample on the forum, you come up with 1:1 WLR, and you see nothing wrong with that? That tells me that pug-stomping IS a problem, or else that means that the odds of winning in this game are down to simple chance, which honestly isn't hard to believe. If you make just a little blunder, maybe you step out in front of the enemy BLOB O DOOM, you get hit 842 times before you can even stop and reverse, and you die. Now your team is down 13% of its firepower. Or maybe it's not you, but one of your teammates. Or maybe the enemy screws up and gets a little too spread out, and your blob crushes them.

This coincides exactly with what I complained about in an earlier post that people whined was "wrong": this game is about as fun as winning coin flips, and if out of people active on the forum who are willing to read rules you put down, you only got a 1:1 WLR, that supports my theory.

Edited by Frostiken, 24 January 2013 - 03:51 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Rifter, on 23 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Sorry to break this to you but you are going to need 2000+ samples to get reliable stats.

That's almost the entire player base.

[Ilwrath]

Frostiken, on 24 January 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Okay first of all, idiots, stop using the term "PUG". A pick-up game / group is SEMI-ORGANIZED. A 4-man you threw together in teamspeak is a pug. "Premade"? Did you guys invent that term just for this game? Nobody in the history of gaming has used "premade" to describe a group playing together, ever.

When I played Warhammer online pug was a group you setup before running scenarios (team based combat) from random people you found on chat. It was a premade but with strangers. People joining solo with no setup whatsoever was pubs. A pure premade was a setup with people from guild, people you did know.

Premade = group setup before you enter the action, if with random strangers = Pug premade.

Hmm I wonder if I have gotten some free try again month on that warhammer game.

Now people use the term pug different here for some reason and I guess you just have to follow the flow.

Edited by Ilwrath, 24 January 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Frostiken]

If you were playing with friends in a group / people you knew, you'd be part of a clan.

People who join the teamspeak servers are strangers, but they at least have the sense to want to use a mic and therefore probably know better than your average scrubling. This is no different than when people for an FPS game join an IRC and ask for two more to finish out their pug team - the people who will accept such an offer are typically of a higher caliber. People who are bad at baseball aren't leaping to join baseball teams.

The random fleshbags that otherwise fill a server with no affiliation and no communication are pubbers.

Like I said, apparently it comes from MMORPGs, but MMORPGs are not games, and people who play them are not really people, so I hardly see why we are imitating them, like anything about them is anything to be proud of.

Edited by Frostiken, 24 January 2013 - 04:12 AM.