61 replies to this topic

[Orthodontist]

A lot of pieces have to fall in place for an LRM boat to be successful. Feels about right atm.

[Consta Pation]

Sug, on 23 January 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Anyone else seeing this? Well maybe not dominating but as a pilot of a founder's Catapult I'm having a MUCH easier time getting kills.

Seems like LRMs are much more effective now that people can hit the ECM light mechs.

Low risk high reward weapon.

Missile boaters anonymous

Orthodontist, on 24 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

A lot of pieces have to fall in place for an LRM boat to be successful. Feels about right atm.

LOL....my teammate tags, I hit "R" and fire. 2 LRM15s spit out their load and my targeting goes red. So, so difficult.

fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.........

[Agent of Change]

Consta Pation, on 24 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Low risk high reward weapon.

Missile boaters anonymous



LOL....my teammate tags, I hit "R" and fire. 2 LRM15s spit out their load and my targeting goes red. So, so difficult.

fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.........

You could be a **** or you could acknowledge that straw man arguments are for people who lack the intellectual capacity to engage in a rational and productive discussion.

So what is it: ****, defective head meat, or acknowledge there is more to it than a pathetic over simplification.

[BatWing]

Itkovian, on 24 January 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

LRMs are certainly not dominating. They are effective if your team is built to use them, namely you load a lot of ECM to counter theirs, along with tag for the brawlers.

But LRMs are still severely affected by ECM. The disrupt effect will still completely neutralize them, which effectively means the only truly useful LRM mech is the DDC, as it can counter the ECM so it can at least resume lobbing missiles.

Before ECM, having a light hit your LRM mech was a major issue, but you at least could still keep firing on another target while your buddies beat away the light mech. Now the moment one comes close you are essentially rendered useless.

Which is really the main issue with ECM IMO: the disrupt effect is not only a massive irritant (messing up your hud), but it also makes LRMs useless, even if you are tagging your target.

If you could still shoot LRMs at targets (and expect them to hit) while being disrupted, LRMs would be in much better shape. As it is, LRMs are a heavy, ammo-intensive weapon system with a 1.5 ton hard counter, that requires a purpose-built team to be made truly effective. That's as nerfed as something can get without being entirely useless.

Solutions? Aside from nerfing the Disrupt effect entirely, I'd say allow TAG to keep locks even when being disrupted. So if I'm tagging a mech while under enemy ECM I should still be able to lob my missiles. If that's not an option, then LRMs should be greatly sped up to make dumbfiring a viable alternative (might even make them speed up only when dumbfired).

That's my 2 cents, at least. Thank you.

I want to add something to this.

Another way to counter the ECM is Killing the ECM Carrier. This was mostly impossible till 2 days ago if the ECM was a Light.

You may see a better perforamnces in LRMs in the last 24 hours because actually is possible killing the ECMs and use the LRM a bit better.

There are good ways to use ECM, if your team tries to cooperate:

• TAG from outside ECM bubble
  
• COUNTER ECM carrier
  
• Kill ECM carrier

I am not against the Disrupt mode that disable the locking system. I was against the fact you could not kill that freaking RVN because lagshielded.
Now, have your LRM boat working. if harrassed by fast ECM, have a Light Hunter ready to protect. you will see your LRM boat will be back on line in no time.

What you are seiing, bottom line is, ECM Light pilots switching to something else because now they die. therefore you have more chance to shoot your LRMs.
If you still see Light ECMs in the enemy team, you will see during the match your LRM performances will improve while those Lights get killed.

Atlas DDC ECM have never been a big of a problem, because they are slow. they can protect their team in the bubble, but if you have a TAG from outside, you can still be effective.

Take all of this in consideration and here you have an improvement on LRMs in the last 24 hours.

[Kommisar]

Another big factor I have noticed is that the general player base has forgotten all of the tricks and tactics to avoid LRM death in the post-ECM game. All the things that we use to do all the time. Like moving cover to cover to break locks and use terrain to eat a volley. Or, even the simple move of slapping that AMS on your mech. There was a time when just about every mech on the field had one. Now... with everyone accepting (perhaps incorrectly) that LRMs are useless and not to be worried about, that 1.5 tons are getting shifted to other parts.

So, the targets are easier to light up.

Then you have the XP/CBill payout for TAG. People are running TAG in higher numbers. Heck, I even have two of my Awesomes fitted with one. So, more opportunities.

And, people have gotten use to ECM. The guys fielding the LRMs haven't qq'ed and are working it. And those guys are good at it. Worse, you have a group of them working it. With non-LRM boats; but several mechs that have one or two launchers that volley fire at the same target. Nasty.

The "common wisdom" of the battlefield continues to shift.

[Garrath]

I've played a lot of builds extensively from short range brawlers (ac20, srms, mplas) to snipers and lrm boats. With ECM in the game as it is, I can tell you without a doubt, that LRM boats take much more skill to play than short range brawlers. Maintaining tag locks, LOS timing/predictions with flight times, situational awareness, lines of fire, etc. I can also tell you that if you get 2 SKILLED LRMers together who know how to play and protect eachother properly, they can be a real force to be reckoned with. Last night myself and a friend had a lot of great games, one of which I got 3 ECM mech kills, 2 scouts and a DDC. You do not get that kind of result from mindlessly hiding behind a rock waiting for red boxes to appear.

We have also loaded up on AC20, SRM, etc boats, went in and one/twoshot mechs in ambushes etc, blahblah, and guess what, the LRMS take a LOT more skill to properly execute.

PS: LRM boats are totally OP...but only when facing clueless players who think standing in the open alone is a good tactic.

Edited by Garrath, 24 January 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Cik]

LRMs are useful again now that ECM is less immortal. even a LRM15 on an atlas helps, just keep shooting red boxes while you move to close range with your AC/20 and you do a surprising amount of damage on the way in.

[miscreant]

Sug, on 23 January 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Anyone else seeing this? Well maybe not dominating but as a pilot of a founder's Catapult I'm having a MUCH easier time getting kills.

Seems like LRMs are much more effective now that people can hit the ECM light mechs.

Yes. I doubt it can be tag since I was bombarded by LRMS from the enemy base while hiding behind a rock outcropping in Forest Colony.

[Joseph Mallan]

Consta Pation, on 24 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Low risk high reward weapon.

Missile boaters anonymous



LOL....my teammate tags, I hit "R" and fire. 2 LRM15s spit out their load and my targeting goes red. So, so difficult.

fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.........

So you sre providing much needed Fire Support to you team and being sarcastic at the same time...
...
...
Continue!

[Havyek]

I think I had my favourite kill the other day. Some dumbarse in a 6 PPC stalker was standing in the open on Frozen City, I was in the middle of the downed dropship (where I could still see and TAG).

He'd fire, shut down, fire, shut down.

I targeted, TAGed, Fired all my LRMs (5xLRM15s+Arty).

He targeted me, fired, shut down (hit my legs lol). I fired off 2 more full salvos then went behind cover before he powered back up. BOTH salvos hit him because he STILL hadn't moved lol. Dead 6 PPC stalker.

[Consta Pation]

Agent of Change, on 24 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

You could be a **** or you could acknowledge that straw man arguments are for people who lack the intellectual capacity to engage in a rational and productive discussion.

So what is it: ****, defective head meat, or acknowledge there is more to it than a pathetic over simplification.

You might want to learn what a strawman argument is before throwing it around. What I provided was a set of actions that I have done many times. Missile fire is niether complicated or thought provoking. You trying to make it sound so complicated is a serious joke

Like JMallen said, I was simply describing lance support.

[Ngamok]

miscreant, on 24 January 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yes. I doubt it can be tag since I was bombarded by LRMS from the enemy base while hiding behind a rock outcropping in Forest Colony.

Need to hide better because I can guarantee I can hide in Forest Colony behind rock outcroppings and have no missles hit me.

[Mancu]

LRMs are the least reliable weapon in the game (barring Flamers/MGs). I consistently do far more damage with A/Cs, Lasers, or SRMS than I do with LRMS.

[Rofl]

Blue Hymn, on 23 January 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Well, instead of lrms dominating against, I've been seeing more of a recurrence of Gauss Catapults, AC20 Catapults, and a lot of ballistics by Cataphracts. Don't know why but - it gets pretty difficult trying to take them down when there's a crapton of them in groups. xP

More DAKKA!!

[Green Mamba]

Alot more people are using them now,I know that for sure

[Rofl]

LRMs are as easy to fire as they are to avoid at a distance. The closer you get, the easier it gets to hit your targets (they move at 1/20th the speed of PPCs and AC/5s). Then at 180m, something magical happens.

With the exception of Caustic Valley, LRMs at range are easy to avoid, and they're only going to be a problem in the middle of their range (let's say... 600m to 200m). If you get caught out in the open with your pants down, they will tear the ever living $%#@ out of you, and you will deserve it.

[Agent of Change]

Consta Pation, on 24 January 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

You might want to learn what a strawman argument is before throwing it around. What I provided was a set of actions that I have done many times. Missile fire is niether complicated or thought provoking. You trying to make it sound so complicated is a serious joke

Like JMallen said, I was simply describing lance support.

Definition

Quote

A straw man argument is a rhetorical device that is meant to easily prove that one’s position or argument is superior to an opposing argument. However, the straw man argument is regarded as a logical fallacy, because at its core, the person using the device misrepresents the other person's argument. The person does this because it then becomes easier to knock down the weaker version of the opposing argument with one's more substantial counter argument. The term straw man derives from the use of scarecrows for military practice, such as charges. In reality, a scarecrow is far easier to defeat than an actual person.

Representing it simply as Acquire red box, aim at red box, get lock, pull trigger, win, IS in fact an oversimplification (along with your tone) designed to some how show LRM's are somehow "easier" other weapons without at all recognizing the various factors at play with EFFECTIVE LRM support fire. I never tried to represent it a complicated, I did represent it as containing a skill set that needs to be recognized as in the current meta it actually does require a measure of skill, foresight, and ingenuity to be fully effective - it is a different skill set than direct fire weapons but still a skill set.

See look I can straw man to: Direct fire weapons... pssh put the cross hairs on the target and pull the trigger... so so hard.

That doesn't fully represent what it takes to be effective with direct fire does it? No it doesn't, be cause I made it seem over simple so i could dismiss it without having to deal with all that pesky 'reality' surrounding what it actually requires to be effective.

EDIT: Unnecessarily aggressive.

Edited by Agent of Change, 24 January 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Well, clicking on every red box you see is a really easy way to fire at a lot of targets - but a lousy way to hit any of them. Unless you're completely confident in your spotter maintaining a good lock, you're generally better closing in a bit or spotting for yourself if you actually care at all about conserving ammo (not that people need to think that way since the removal of R&R ).

I've always liked LRMs. I them since my first exposure to BT/MW, and I like PGI's interpretation of them in many regards. Frankly I just enjoy watching them float through the sky - one of my earliest memories of CB was watching clouds of slow, high-lofting LRMs drift across the sky on the new (at the time) Caustic Valley map. I also really appreciate the benefits of being able to provide fire-support for teammates without having direct LoS - especially when getting LoS often involves rushing to within 150m due to terrain on the maps we have. But in some ways, they are also a bit of a frustration.

LRMs are sort of a feast or famine system - against unwary targets without ECM in a map with decent open areas, they definitely can dominate, but against experienced players on a tighter map (with or without ECM), you can dump quite a few tons of ammo without scoring much more than glancing hits. On targets in the open you can use TAG to improve the accuracy of your shots, but beyond that there really isn't a lot you can do, besides engage at closer ranges to reduce response time. LRMs fired at 1000m are certainly menacing, but not terribly dangerous if you have any kind of situational awareness (getting tunnel vision while trying to direct-fire snipe at the tiny blue blips 1000m away will get you slaughtered, but it takes some real effort to ignore the flashing signs and Bitching Betty's admonishments these days!)

To put it simply, LRMs are a pretty good system, but they could be a better system with a few tweaks. Right now, very high per-missile damage is both compensating for low hit rates and causing missile-fire to act primarily as a suppression weapon - not entirely what I would've envisioned first reading the Commando and Raven descriptions. Given my druthers, I would:

• Reduce per-missile damage to 1.3 - 1.6 per missile, but increase flight speed to at least 250m/s. Odds of an insta-gib will be much lower, but chances for an initial hit will be much higher. Being able to shrug off a volley or two may be an option, but not a desireable one, as the threat from subsequent volleys will be greater. Firing without lock will also be more viable.
  
• Change how lock-on works. At a minimum, reduce the distance from target bracket to reticule needed to hold lock. This won't affect LRMs all that much, as most long-range shooting requires minimal angular deflection, but it will make SSRMs a little mroe challenging.
  
• Return spotting to requiring a spotter actually have the target, well, targeted. That's the way it used to work, but I'm pretty sure it's not the case any more.
  
• Change LRM spread. The current default scatter is ok for direct-fire, and Artemis or TAG likewise currently provide a worthwhile improvement to grouping in direct-fire mode. But loosen the scatter for indirect-fire by around 50% (since we can already differentiate direct vs. indirect fire for Artemis, this shouldn't be an issue). Let TAG tighten the indirect-fire pattern back up to base direct-fire density. Let Narc beacons improve the pattern density equal to TAG/Artemis used in direct fire. This would both emphasize the advantages of good spotting over random slinging, and give Narc a worthwhile purpose.

[Agent of Change]

Solis Obscuri, on 24 January 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

• Change LRM spread. The current default scatter is ok for direct-fire, and Artemis or TAG likewise currently provide a worthwhile improvement to grouping in direct-fire mode. But loosen the scatter for indirect-fire by around 50% (since we can already differentiate direct vs. indirect fire for Artemis, this shouldn't be an issue). Let TAG tighten the indirect-fire pattern back up to base direct-fire density. Let Narc beacons improve the pattern density equal to TAG/Artemis used in direct fire. This would both emphasize the advantages of good spotting over random slinging, and give Narc a worthwhile purpose.

of course I would like to see narc work from within an ECM bubble because even with anyother buff it is completely nullified most of the time by ECM running teams. I mean hell maintain a short life for the effect, but unless it works through ECM all other factors considered it would still be a waste of tonnage

Edited by Agent of Change, 24 January 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Agent of Change, on 24 January 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

of course I would like to see narc work from within an ECM bubble because even with anyother buff it is completely nullified most of the time by ECM running teams. I mean hell maintain a short life for the effect, but unless it works through ECM all other factors considered it would still be a waste of tonnage

Well... I think part of the reason ECM has such expanded powers (blocking lock, targeting, IFF, and communication of position to friendly units) is because its canonical abilities (blocking Narc, Artemis, C3, BAP, and limiting non-visual/non-LoS sensor scans) aren't that worthwhile - Narcotics sucks, BAP's benefits are marginal, and we have no scanning abilities save heat-vision and no maps requiring sensor blind-fighting. Artemis is the only legit threat out of the T2 equipment (save TAG which was chosen as ECM's counter), so as a result to make ECM "good" it got a bunch of unbalanced and non-canonical advantages against T1 gear.