61 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

Solis Obscuri, on 24 January 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Well... I think part of the reason ECM has such expanded powers (blocking lock, targeting, IFF, and communication of position to friendly units) is because its canonical abilities (blocking Narc, Artemis, C3, BAP, and limiting non-visual/non-LoS sensor scans) aren't that worthwhile - Narcotics sucks, BAP's benefits are marginal, and we have no scanning abilities save heat-vision and no maps requiring sensor blind-fighting. Artemis is the only legit threat out of the T2 equipment (save TAG which was chosen as ECM's counter), so as a result to make ECM "good" it got a bunch of unbalanced and non-canonical advantages against T1 gear.

Agreed which is why in order to counter the the unbalanced non-canonical advantages it gives we need to give some non-canonical advantages to other pieces of equipment. I mean it makes perfect sense, if you break cannon for anything you have to be prepared to remove the canon break or go back and break canon for other things in the name of balance. The end game is a game with equipment, counters and counter counters, so long as it is balanced minor canon breaks should be accepted and allowed if you are going to accept and allow any canon breaks.

Edited by Agent of Change, 24 January 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

I break cannons all the time. Dual AC20 cat? BAM, ST gone.

Garth, Cicada Message Delivery Service
When You Need 30 Damage Alpha Support NOW

[Tzukasa]

Garth Erlam, on 24 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I break cannons all the time. Dual AC20 cat? BAM, ST gone.

Garth, Cicada Message Delivery Service
When You Need 30 Damage Alpha Support NOW

Terrible way to respond to an issue that is EXTREMELY Important to almost all of your players, whom the majority of Strongly Dislike the current implementation of. And makes me question your commitment to making a MechWarrior game... and just when I gained a little bit of faith back in the future of the game with the netcode update in the patch... GJ

Edited by Tzukasa, 24 January 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[ApathyZer0]

Tzukasa, on 24 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Terrible way to respond to an issue that is EXTREMELY Important to almost all of your players, whom the majority of Strongly Dislike the current implementation of. And makes me question your commitment to making a MechWarrior game... and just when I gained a little bit of faith back in the future of the game with the netcode update in the patch... GJ

Almost all players? I haven't seen chat in a single match about LRM's being too strong since the beginning of open beta. If you mean the small vocal minority on forums who will complain about anything for the sake of complaining then sure. The truth is the "everyone" you claim to speak for is a small percentage of a small percentage.

Dev's are allowed to joke around, just because you want to be doom and gloom about everything doesn't require them to follow suit.

[KingKalvin]

Some people just got tired of running the same mech again and again.

[Tzukasa]

ApathyZer0, on 24 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Almost all players? I haven't seen chat in a single match about LRM's being too strong since the beginning of open beta. If you mean the small vocal minority on forums who will complain about anything for the sake of complaining then sure. The truth is the "everyone" you claim to speak for is a small percentage of a small percentage.

Dev's are allowed to joke around, just because you want to be doom and gloom about everything doesn't require them to follow suit.

A SMALL Percentage of players care about the balancing of ecm and it not being part of cannon with its implementation?! Are you joking?! There are Multiple 40+ page posts, with Hundreds of people posting about it that would seem to disagree...

Its rather shameful that these offhand remarks is ALL we ever get in response to this issue from pgi...

Edited by Tzukasa, 24 January 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[Streeter]

Tzukasa, on 24 January 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

A SMALL Percentage of players care about the balancing of ecm and it not being part of cannon with its implementation?! Are you joking?! There are Multiple 40+ page posts, with Hundreds of people posting about it that would seem to disagree...

You just get the hogwash of "adapt" etc. I played an ECM raven and got 1200+ damage in a light. Im sick of it now, but play any thing else and you are at a terrible disadvantage.

Ive pretty much stopped playing, I loved the game before so come back and check once in every while to see if they have `fixed` the ECM.

So many new games coming out now, Im starting to check less regularly.

[Like a Sir]

Tzukasa, on 24 January 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

A SMALL Percentage of players care about the balancing of ecm and it not being part of cannon with its implementation?! Are you joking?! There are Multiple 40+ page posts, with Hundreds of people posting about it that would seem to disagree...

I would like to see some links please... I saw some long LRM OP posts, when the patch with artemis came out and they were borked, I saw them in closed beta, usually right next to LRM are under powered posts, and you see random people start a thread about it and rant here and there. Because they for some reason can't charge across the 4 line on caustic when 2 dedicated 75 missile/salvo stalkers are shooting at them.

Oh and for the record, my favorite mech is <270m brawler and I do not own a single LRM boat.

[Agent of Change]

Garth Erlam, on 24 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I break cannons all the time. Dual AC20 cat? BAM, ST gone.

Garth, Cicada Message Delivery Service
When You Need 30 Damage Alpha Support NOW

When I re-read it I'm not sure you break canons nearly as often as i talk about doing it.

[Dirkdaring]

I have tag on my LRM boat, it helps a ton.

[ApathyZer0]

Tzukasa, on 24 January 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

A SMALL Percentage of players care about the balancing of ecm and it not being part of cannon with its implementation?! Are you joking?! There are Multiple 40+ page posts, with Hundreds of people posting about it that would seem to disagree...

Its rather shameful that these offhand remarks is ALL we ever get in response to this issue from pgi...

Oh, so we're talking about ECM now? Ok fine, do think the majority of people who play this game care anything about whether something is canon? Not the less than 1% who post on these forums I mean the player base at large. Not even all of the small community of forum whiners agree on ECM. What seems like a lot to you is a tiny fraction of the people playing this game.

You think ECM is OP? Go play a spider 5D and show me all your awesome scores.

If you think casual remarks constitute the majority of dev response you're way out of touch with reality. Over the past couple weeks we've received responses on pretty much all the hot button issues.

[One Medic Army]

Dirkdaring, on 24 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I have tag on my LRM boat, it helps a ton.

It should, it weighs a ton.













I appologize for the terrible pun, I'm sorry.

[Devil Fox]

4man premades are using them... the problem is alot of people saw the Stalker, and went 'hey why not just boat LRM's!'. There are so many LRM stalker's with tag... their weak in a close fight but their usually not alone, you have the DD-C LRM boat for ECM cover, or you have the group running 2 ECM light's for target designation and ecm coverage for the Stalker.

LRM's are fine where they are, what we need is ways to counter the ECM defense that can be used with them without some laser based los equipment or another ECM which has to close in (when their light's will counter then jam, for the rain). Pre-ECM every team had one or 2 LRM boats to soften and threaten incoming bogies, now their just as powerful but alot more defended and impossible to counter LRM with ECM on the field.

[Tzukasa]

ApathyZer0, on 24 January 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Oh, so we're talking about ECM now? Ok fine, do think the majority of people who play this game care anything about whether something is canon? Not the less than 1% who post on these forums I mean the player base at large. Not even all of the small community of forum whiners agree on ECM. What seems like a lot to you is a tiny fraction of the people playing this game.

You think ECM is OP? Go play a spider 5D and show me all your awesome scores.

If you think casual remarks constitute the majority of dev response you're way out of touch with reality. Over the past couple weeks we've received responses on pretty much all the hot button issues.

How did you get I think ecm is op out of what I said? I typed its "an issue that is extremely important to almost all of your players, whom the majority of strongly disagree with the implementation of" and it Deserves more response than continued off the hand remarks.

http://mwomercs.com/...70#entry1598770
255 people liked this post

http://mwomercs.com/...vs-29a-answers/
and 93 more this one

There are TONS of other posts about it all over all you have to do is just open your freekin eyes lol. Its a Real Issue that ALOT of people care about and we Deserve more response from the devs than we have gotten so far.

Edited by Tzukasa, 24 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[ApathyZer0]

Tzukasa, on 24 January 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

How did you get I think ecm is op out of what I said? I typed its "an issue that is extremely important to almost all of your players, whom the majority of strongly disagree with the implementation of" and it Deserves more response than continued off the hand remarks.

http://mwomercs.com/...70#entry1598770
255 people liked this post

http://mwomercs.com/...vs-29a-answers/
and 93 more this one

There are TONS of other posts about it all over all you have to do is just open your freekin eyes lol. Its a Real Issue that ALOT of people care about and we Deserve more response from the devs than we have gotten so far.

Yes I've seen the threads, and they don't represent the majority of the player base. The dev's have already said that they are looking into it. Maybe it gets adjusted maybe it doesn't.

Look, if the everyone in the game hated ECM it would have already been removed. The game still needs to make money and if a piece of equipment that got implemented was driving people away it wouldn't be there very long.

If the game consisted of or around 255 people then your reference to that thread might bear some weight. But, I think we both know that isn't accurate. You don't speak for the majority of players with your outrage. You don't even speak for the majority of the forum users.

The dev's have responded and people keep asking anyway. I don't see why they need to keep repeating themselves to make you happy.

[Livewyr]

One Medic Army, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I appologize for the terrible pun, I'm sorry.

No you're not.

[Solis Obscuri]

Agent of Change, on 24 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Agreed which is why in order to counter the the unbalanced non-canonical advantages it gives we need to give some non-canonical advantages to other pieces of equipment. I mean it makes perfect sense, if you break cannon for anything you have to be prepared to remove the canon break or go back and break canon for other things in the name of balance. The end game is a game with equipment, counters and counter counters, so long as it is balanced minor canon breaks should be accepted and allowed if you are going to accept and allow any canon breaks.

Fair point, though I fear Power Creep if we lurch too far. ECM is right now in the lone-outlier field for equipment where it's easier to go after it than after every other item in the game. Minor canon breaks are always acceptable and frankly necessary for conversion from TT dice-rolling to first-person shooter/sim. I do like to look on TT as a frame of reference, though, and for ideas on interplay between different items and technologies.

That said, let's not flog ECM to death again here - this is a thread for flogging LRMs!

[One Medic Army]

Livewyr, on 24 January 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

No you're not.

You're right.
I'm not.

[Agent of Change]

Solis Obscuri, on 24 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Fair point, though I fear Power Creep if we lurch too far. ECM is right now in the lone-outlier field for equipment where it's easier to go after it than after every other item in the game. Minor canon breaks are always acceptable and frankly necessary for conversion from TT dice-rolling to first-person shooter/sim. I do like to look on TT as a frame of reference, though, and for ideas on interplay between different items and technologies.

That said, let's not flog ECM to death again here - this is a thread for flogging LRMs!

Power creep IS ever the danger and if we slip into a cycle of "The New Hotness" (which is what tends to drive FOTM in games like LoL) we will see the power creep because the elements come isolated from other factors out of the ether. FOTM driven by new is going to happen but driven by genuine power creep is worrisome and we have already seen something like that already with ECM largely because it did take a step out into the "out of thin air" school of design, where as most everythign else changes and all have been derived from a stable and we tested source TT. Acknowledging that we need to diverge from TT because of the medium transition doesn't negate the fct that a stable blueprint exist for maintaining consistent internal balance, and diverging from that too drastically can create unintended and severly unbalanced results... liiiiiikkkkeee

The abrupt reduction of LRMs from must have for battlefield dominance to something people question if they are even worth taking.

Also, I don't know about you But i thought this thread was about celebrating how awesome LRM's are right now.

[Solis Obscuri]

Agent of Change, on 24 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Also, I don't know about you But i thought this thread was about celebrating how awesome LRM's are right now.

I'm glad they finally found a good pathing solution for them, that's for sure.