161 replies to this topic

[Tharkan Stuermer]

I don't think, that SSRMs are a problem, the combination of ECM and SSRMs in a few Mechs is the problem.

[Theobald Hauser]

You're wrapping the thing around. Did Streaks in TT didn't fire when you wanted them to ?
Did they 100% hit when you fired them actually ?

And you can't make a gameplay that block you from firing things.
Even more, you just have to scan your entire field of view and they would fire if you can hit anything, THAT is a lot more no-skill than maintaining lock.

[MWHawke]

Lege, on 27 January 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Now the whole issue of missiles just blowing up when they hit their max range I have a problem with. I see a mech as 240m and moving away, fire, by the time the short ranged missiles get to them they are at 280m and the missiles just blew up and did no damage even though they were going right at the target.
I'm asking for a little more room there, maybe add another 10-33% to the range that they don't automatically explode.

That's how it works in real life too. The missiles have expended their fuel and drop off.

[MWHawke]

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

You're wrapping the thing around. Did Streaks in TT didn't fire when you wanted them to ?
Did they 100% hit when you fired them actually ?

And you can't make a gameplay that block you from firing things.
Even more, you just have to scan your entire field of view and they would fire if you can hit anything, THAT is a lot more no-skill than maintaining lock.

Well, with Hitscan, it might be possible.

Your second point would be moot if they were to work like LRMs in terms of having to get a reticule lock before Hitscan works.

[RowanE83]

Tharkan Stuermer, on 27 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I don't think, that SSRMs are a problem, the combination of ECM and SSRMs in a few Mechs is the problem.

i agree.

In my ravcel 3L, can hound just about any mech to death with streaks without any concern about overheat. In other mechs where streaks would be nice as a deterant or auxiliary weapon, I don't even bother since its unknown if I can even fire them.

[Critical Fumble]

MWHawke, on 27 January 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

No longer the case. Lasers are pretty accurate already.

Uh. . . No?

Its not the netcode/lagshield issue I'm talking about - in fact an argument about balance based on that would be foolish at best because it would mean that we're settling for what we've got, and if/when the lagshield becomes lostech, the fix would break the game.

Consider trying to hit a target that is moving quickly relative to you. It could be a light mech passing you at 140, or it could be an assault that you are passing at 140. To hit with hitscan weapons you need to hold your crosshairs over the target as you fire; with ballistics you have to figure out an angle to fire where the target and your bullet will intersect. Trying to turn while firing adds another later of complexity to the situation. Those conditions require some degree of skill to strike the target effectively, and if you fail some or all of your damage is lost.

However, if you have SSRM launchers, those situations are largely a non-issue, as there's a fair margin for error as you get a lock on, and a much larger one after that to keep the lock.

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

And it still wouldn't be an argument. it's a fact, but not an argument.
It's not because other weapons are lame against lights that streaks need to be lame too.

And yes other direct weapons work now, and have other strong points streaks have not. No ammos, better damage and rof, better range, no lock needed, no ECM vulnerability, ...
It's what balance is. If all weapons are bad against a target type, the game is broken. So basicaly, you want to break the game for the sake of unbreaking it where it is not.
Food for thoughts.

Most of your argument would only be valid if lagshield were an intended feature. Its not. You're also trying to say that nothing except SSRMs can be effective lights. That's not the case.

Furthermore, the balance theory that X is ok because Y cancels it out is just a bad idea for a game this style.

[Theobald Hauser]

Lock AND hitscan ? You're kidding ? Just nerf them to death !

I so love it when you enlightened people make not one but two gamebreaking total overhaul suggestions that need each others to be usable and still call it "balancing".

[Theobald Hauser]

Quote

Most of your argument would only be valid if lagshield were an intended feature. Its not. You're also trying to say that nothing except SSRMs can be effective lights. That's not the case.

Furthermore, the balance theory that X is ok because Y cancels it out is just a bad idea for a game this style.

Don't see any point with "valid if lagshield intended feature". Streaks are weapons good against lights. Not good against lights because of lagshield or whatever.

And sadly for you, the whole weight class system is totally build on this rock/paper/scissor "bad idea for a game of this style" system, according to dev team. Sorry.

[Critical Fumble]

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Don't see any point with "valid if lagshield intended feature". Streaks are weapons good against lights. Not good against lights because of lagshield or whatever.

And yet that's what popularized them. Guided weapons piece the lagshield, whereas you may have to lagshoot to hit with everything else. Lights aren't so fast that you can't, at least from a client side perspective, hit them with most of your laser fire, either.

Streaks are great because they're heat an ammo efficient. One ton has 250 potential damage, and so long as you fire it all and there are no freak accidents, you always get all of it. Why does it also need to be vastly easier to aim as well?

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

And sadly for you, the whole weight class system is totally build on this rock/paper/scissor "bad idea for a game of this style" system, according to dev team. Sorry.

Actually, its a bad idea in any game, just worse here. In a game where you have access to a number of units like a strategy or RPG game, its not as bad, but its still a shallow one-off balance gimmick. So, no, I will never agree that "trap cards" or "Its SUPER effective!" does any good for this game.

[CancR]

Tharkan Stuermer, on 27 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I don't think, that SSRMs are a problem, the combination of ECM and SSRMs in a few Mechs is the problem.

No, SSRms are the problem. The math for them makes them a CoD press fire to win with no skill.

As I demonstrated before Streaks stacking is way more efficient at killing then any other weapon in the game. They have a low heat, and only 2 streaks deal the same damage as a ppc, and 3 a Gauss But unlike the direct fire weapon they don't miss (which isn't the problem in and of it's self) and will always hit CT. Furthermore Streaks will fire and hit when you mech is looking the other way as the enemy mech, pointed to the sky, or where ever as long as they have the target lock, which as long as they have their next target lock, which lasts even long now with 360 target retention and target decay.

[Theobald Hauser]

You demonstrated nothing and it's completely wrong. Only lights fear streaks. And if you were even slightly right, there would be Streakats everywhere, so where are they ?

2 mediums have the same damages than a PPC and 3 than a gauss. Your "demonstration" is already flawed. Medium lasers need nerf !!!
And they don't always hit CT, they target every T, and it's already in the works that they will target arms and legs too, and you know that.
You're clearly not playing the same game as us, when I look to the sky, my lock goes away.
Target decay is not long enough to allow you to shoot a second streak and it's the right duration on purpose.
360° doesn't make you unable te flee, which is easy, as the mech is going in the opposite direction.

Lies, lies, lies. So easy.

Edited by Amarius, 27 January 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[Theobald Hauser]

Quote

And yet that's what popularized them. Guided weapons piece the lagshield, whereas you may have to lagshoot to hit with everything else. Lights aren't so fast that you can't, at least from a client side perspective, hit them with most of your laser fire, either.

Streaks aren't "too strong" because they are "popular". It's not because they are used against lagshield that they were made for the lagshield issue neither.

[Critical Fumble]

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Streaks aren't "too strong" because they are "popular". It's not because they are used against lagshield that they were made for the lagshield issue neither.

Um, no, that's usually not the way things go. Streaks became "popular" because they were "too strong".

And I have no clue what you were trying to say in that second sentence either.

Critical Fumble, on 27 January 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Streaks are great because they're heat an ammo efficient. One ton has 250 potential damage, and so long as you fire it all and there are no freak accidents, you always get all of it. Why does it also need to be vastly easier to aim as well?

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Yes you could utterly ruin streaks, which isn't going to matter in a few months...

Or you could just have AMS be effective against them.

[CancR]

Making Missiles balanced isn't ruining them. Both the TT and the video games have been about all weapons having a equal risk reward in using them, which ithere is no reason to use any none missile weapons as of now since all 3 forms will out damage everything else.

[Theobald Hauser]

Critical Fumble, on 27 January 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

(...)

It's not because other weapons were nerfed by lagshield that streaks have to be dumbed down; and they aren't more or less powerful with or without the lagshield.
They're relatively more powerful, which is an entire different thing, that proves that the problem is elsewhere.

As it has been said: Streaks on ecm lights is the problem.

CancR, on 27 January 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Making Missiles balanced isn't ruining them. Both the TT and the video games have been about all weapons having a equal risk reward in using them, which ithere is no reason to use any none missile weapons as of now since all 3 forms will out damage everything else.

..which is the reward for missiles, and the risks is ammo tonnage, ammo explosions, critical slots, weights, ecm weakness, ....

You're ruining them. You're ruining the game.

What you want is a totally different game. Go find one that suits you, or make one.

[CancR]

If AMS shot down 3 out 6 streaks fired it wouldn't be a bad start.

[ManDaisy]

Ams does jack **** vs streaks so don't even go there. Just cutting off faulty logic before it can grow.

Edited by ManDaisy, 27 January 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Crazy Eight, on 27 January 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

The whole entire point of streaks is %100 chance of hit your opponent, you know that right? they are meant to be bane to light mechs.

No the point of streaks as ammunition conservation. Streaks are not supposed to guarantee a hit, they are supposed to hold fire until until a hit is assured.

[CancR]

ManDaisy, on 27 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Ams does jack **** vs streaks so don't even go there. Just cutting off faulty logic before it can grow.

There is no reason why they shouldn't. Streaks are not anything special in flight travel compared to SRMS. They only wait till they have a lock to be sure to conserve heat and ammo. Its not like the 100% hit is because streaks travel faster then SRMS.

Dirus Nigh, on 27 January 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

No the point of streaks as ammunition conservation. Streaks are not supposed to guarantee a hit, they are supposed to hold fire until until a hit is assured.

Don't bother using facts, knowledge, or experiencing against people who never played any other MW or played BT. Leave them to think that their guesses at the old rules comes out to something meaningful. All it will lead to is them quote source info we know much more about then them, and only leads to proving us right.