161 replies to this topic

[MWHawke]

RowanE83, on 27 January 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

i agree.

In my ravcel 3L, can hound just about any mech to death with streaks without any concern about overheat. In other mechs where streaks would be nice as a deterant or auxiliary weapon, I don't even bother since its unknown if I can even fire them.

Actually, I have just finished 2 drops with the same enemies and I noticed something about the raven 3ls they were playing. When initially they approached us at full speed, they were running fine, then when they started to get into our firing ranges, they started warping/teleporting around. And that effect only happened to those 2 ravens. No other Mechs had that effect. Only those 2 ravens.

[MWHawke]

Critical Fumble, on 27 January 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Uh. . . No?

Its not the netcode/lagshield issue I'm talking about - in fact an argument about balance based on that would be foolish at best because it would mean that we're settling for what we've got, and if/when the lagshield becomes lostech, the fix would break the game.

Consider trying to hit a target that is moving quickly relative to you. It could be a light mech passing you at 140, or it could be an assault that you are passing at 140. To hit with hitscan weapons you need to hold your crosshairs over the target as you fire; with ballistics you have to figure out an angle to fire where the target and your bullet will intersect. Trying to turn while firing adds another later of complexity to the situation. Those conditions require some degree of skill to strike the target effectively, and if you fail some or all of your damage is lost.

However, if you have SSRM launchers, those situations are largely a non-issue, as there's a fair margin for error as you get a lock on, and a much larger one after that to keep the lock.

Sorry but when we refer to maintaining the reticule on the target to get the lock, isn't it the same as pressing fire on your laser and following the target reticule? As long as you follow the target, then you would already be hitting the Light Mech with your lasers right?

To get the lock, when you mentioned fair margin of error, your target reticule would still have to fall inside of the red target box, meaning if you fire your lasers, wouldn't it be hitting the target already? I don't really go into that much detail of looking at laser hits in youtube to research which point is considered hitting with lasers and which is considered targeting to get the target lock so I apologize if I'm missing your point in some way.

[MWHawke]

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Lock AND hitscan ? You're kidding ? Just nerf them to death !

I so love it when you enlightened people make not one but two gamebreaking total overhaul suggestions that need each others to be usable and still call it "balancing".

Do you understand the discussion at all? First, you mention just scanning the target reticule over the horizon to hit, then when a suggestion is put forth to surmount it, you change it to whining about crippling it by requiring two mechanisms to operate.

This is a discussion and no one is making a decision to change, as only PGI can do that.

Firstly, if you use Streaks as it is now, you still have to acquire the target anyway. Or do you mean that you have found a hack to not require you to acquire targets for your Streaks, ie. without using the red box?

Secondly, Hitscan would then determine upon pressing the fire button, whether the Streak 2 would hit or not. If system decides it does not hit, then the Streak 2 will not fire. If it determines a hit, then the Streak 2 fires.

Hope you are able to understand the explanation.

[MWHawke]

CancR, on 27 January 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

No, SSRms are the problem. The math for them makes them a CoD press fire to win with no skill.

As I demonstrated before Streaks stacking is way more efficient at killing then any other weapon in the game. They have a low heat, and only 2 streaks deal the same damage as a ppc, and 3 a Gauss But unlike the direct fire weapon they don't miss (which isn't the problem in and of it's self) and will always hit CT. Furthermore Streaks will fire and hit when you mech is looking the other way as the enemy mech, pointed to the sky, or where ever as long as they have the target lock, which as long as they have their next target lock, which lasts even long now with 360 target retention and target decay.

I don't really agree with this. If you compare weight and ammo requirement, as well as chance for ammo explosion and crit slots, then lasers are actually comparable to Streak 2s. Of course, then there is the issue of external DHS working at 1.4 efficiency which seriously prevents lasers from having a major effect on the game due to heat.

And, Streaks cannot be compared to long range weapons for the simple fact that range does work to the Mechs advantage as well.

[Theobald Hauser]

MWHawke, on 27 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Do you understand the discussion at all? First, you mention just scanning the target reticule over the horizon to hit, then when a suggestion is put forth to surmount it, you change it to whining about crippling it by requiring two mechanisms to operate.

What ? Me ? Where ?

Quote

Firstly, if you use Streaks as it is now, you still have to acquire the target anyway. Or do you mean that you have found a hack to not require you to acquire targets for your Streaks, ie. without using the red box?

Secondly, Hitscan would then determine upon pressing the fire button, whether the Streak 2 would hit or not. If system decides it does not hit, then the Streak 2 will not fire. If it determines a hit, then the Streak 2 fires.

So you just can click the mouse the fastest you can by moving the reticule, until the game fires for you with a 100% hit.
And you won't never miss, the game blocking you from misfiring by clicking as a madman.

That's so wonderful. You just made Mechwarrior a hack'n'slash.

[blinkin]

Hawke are you enjoying the discussion you are having with yourself?

[MWHawke]

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

You're wrapping the thing around. Did Streaks in TT didn't fire when you wanted them to ?
Did they 100% hit when you fired them actually ?

And you can't make a gameplay that block you from firing things.
Even more, you just have to scan your entire field of view and they would fire if you can hit anything, THAT is a lot more no-skill than maintaining lock.

Here.

[MWHawke]

Amarius, on 27 January 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

So you just can click the mouse the fastest you can by moving the reticule, until the game fires for you with a 100% hit.
And you won't never miss, the game blocking you from misfiring by clicking as a madman.

That's so wonderful. You just made Mechwarrior a hack'n'slash.

I guess that's why you don't know how to use SRM 6s and keep demanding Streaks to be kept as they are and are not open to any discussion at all.

And all your sarcastic remarks are just plain showing that you are stupid as I have mentioned that this is a discussion and nobody is forcing PGI to change anything as this is a DISCUSSION.

blinkin, on 27 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Hawke are you enjoying the discussion you are having with yourself?

Lol! I'm getting that feeling already..

[Theobald Hauser]

I wasn't speaking about horizon. You clearly don't see the problem at close range. You don't have to manually target at all. Just click and blindly move your pointer.

And you can keep all you insulting remarks about my intelligence or my gameplay abilities, only born of your misunderstanding of your own idea and my words, and get lost somewhere else. I'm not open to your personal attacks, no.

[MWHawke]

blinkin, on 27 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Hawke are you enjoying the discussion you are having with yourself?

I think I heard the wind howl again..

[focuspark]

MWHawke, on 27 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think I heard the wind howl again..

Nah, it's just a lot of hot air...

[Dirus Nigh]

ManDaisy, on 27 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Ams does jack **** vs streaks so don't even go there. Just cutting off faulty logic before it can grow.

That is an issue with AMS. If AMS is ineffective against streaks, witch it mostly is, then it needs to be addressed and changed. Right now AMS only has a chance of knocking out a streak missile if it is fired over 200m away.

[Strum Wealh]

ManDaisy, on 27 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

CancR, on 27 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

If AMS shot down 3 out 6 streaks fired it wouldn't be a bad start.

Ams does jack **** vs streaks so don't even go there. Just cutting off faulty logic before it can grow.

However, AMS should be effective against Streak missiles.

This is covered in Total Warfare (the current core BattleTech ruleset), on page 129.

Quote

Anytime a missile weapon makes a successful to-hit attack against a unit carrying an AMS, and the missile weapon strikes in the attack direction covered by the firing arc where the AMS is mounted, the AMS will automatically engage with the following results:

• The attacking player applies a –4 to the die roll result when rolling on the Cluster Hits Table (an AMS never reduces a roll on the table below 2)
  
• If the missile weapon is a Streak launcher, treat the launcher as though the controlling player rolled an 11 on the appropriate column of the Cluster Hits Table [see page 116], then apply the –4 modifier to determine how many missiles struck the target.
  
• If the missile weapon normally fires only a single missile in a shot (such as a Narc Missile Beacon), roll 1D6: on a result of 1-3 the missile is destroyed, on a result of 4-6 the missile strikes the target.

(The difference between a result of "11" and a result of "7" (once the -4 modifier is applied) on the Cluster Hits Table would suggest an approximate shoot-down rate of between 33% and 50% against Streak missile salvos.)

The older Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised) expands on this, on pages 130-131:
"The anti-missile system cannot be used against Arrow IV Artillery, Thunder, Flare, or Swarm or Swarm-I missiles, but it can be used against ATMs, Rocket Launchers, Narc pods, MRMs, Flechette, Incendiary, Inferno, Semi-Guided, and Streak missiles. In the latter case, if the Streak to-hit roll fails, meaning the missiles fail to achieve lock-on (see Streak Short-Range Missiles, p. 140), the results of the anti-missile system’s firing are disregarded; the weapon does not fire, uses no ammunition and does not create heat."

As much as it galls me to agree with CancR , I would not be above noting that his general thinking (i.e. that AMS should provide a not-insignificant defense against Streak missiles) is not wholly incorrect in this particular, specific instance.

[MWHawke]

Strum Wealh, on 27 January 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

However, AMS should be effective against Streak missiles.

This is covered in Total Warfare (the current core BattleTech ruleset), on page 129.
(The difference between a result of "11" and a result of "7" (once the -4 modifier is applied) on the Cluster Hits Table would suggest an approximate shoot-down rate of between 33% and 50% against Streak missile salvos.)

The older Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised) expands on this, on pages 130-131:
"The anti-missile system cannot be used against Arrow IV Artillery, Thunder, Flare, or Swarm or Swarm-I missiles, but it can be used against ATMs, Rocket Launchers, Narc pods, MRMs, Flechette, Incendiary, Inferno, Semi-Guided, and Streak missiles. In the latter case, if the Streak to-hit roll fails, meaning the missiles fail to achieve lock-on (see Streak Short-Range Missiles, p. 140), the results of the anti-missile system’s firing are disregarded; the weapon does not fire, uses no ammunition and does not create heat."

As much as it galls me to agree with CancR , I would not be above noting that his general thinking (i.e. that AMS should provide a not-insignificant defense against Streak missiles) is not wholly incorrect in this particular, specific instance.

Well, we are all here to make this game better, so regardless who has a point, we should be as impartial as we can

[Critical Fumble]

MWHawke, on 27 January 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Sorry but when we refer to maintaining the reticule on the target to get the lock, isn't it the same as pressing fire on your laser and following the target reticule? As long as you follow the target, then you would already be hitting the Light Mech with your lasers right?

To get the lock, when you mentioned fair margin of error, your target reticule would still have to fall inside of the red target box, meaning if you fire your lasers, wouldn't it be hitting the target already? I don't really go into that much detail of looking at laser hits in youtube to research which point is considered hitting with lasers and which is considered targeting to get the target lock so I apologize if I'm missing your point in some way.

Notice how the red target box is considerably larger than the mech itself. It also doesn't have any features of the mech (an Atlas at profile has the same target box as one facing you). The target box has a lot of open air where you would do no damage with lasers, like over the shoulder, between the legs, under the arms, and some more depending on the target and angle.

Resetting the lock-on would help, but the size of the lock on box simultaneously denies a large portion of the serviceability surviveability given light mechs and gives fast mechs the ability to do full damage without slowing down. I'd be perfectly happy with streak missiles if they simply obeyed the same rules all the other direct-fire weapons. For example:

• Firing a streak launcher activates an invisible no-damage beam similar to a medium laser.
  
• If enough of the beam's duration makes contact, it counts as a lock.
  
• The areas hit by the beam influence which sections of the mech the missiles home to.
  
• At the edge of their effective range, they lose guidance and arc towards the ground like they were under the influence of gravity.
  
• ECM does not deny their use.

Skill based weapon in a "skill based" game, go figure.

EDIT: SPELLCHECKER, Y U NO READ MY MIND!?

Edited by Critical Fumble, 27 January 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[focuspark]

Critical Fumble, on 27 January 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Notice how the red target box is considerably larger than the mech itself. It also doesn't have any features of the mech (an Atlas at profile has the same target box as one facing you). The target box has a lot of open air where you would do no damage with lasers, like over the shoulder, between the legs, under the arms, and some more depending on the target and angle.

Resetting the lock-on would help, but the size of the lock on box simultaneously denies a large portion of the serviceability given light mechs and gives fast mechs the ability to do full damage without slowing down. I'd be perfectly happy with streak missiles if they simply obeyed the same rules all the other direct-fire weapons. For example:

• Firing a streak launcher activates an invisible no-damage beam similar to a medium laser.
  
• If enough of the beam's duration makes contact, it counts as a lock.
  
• The areas hit by the beam influence which sections of the mech the missiles home to.
  
• At the edge of their effective range, they lose guidance and arc towards the ground like they were under the influence of gravity.
  
• ECM does not deny their use.

Skill based weapon in a "skill based" game, go figure.

Oh I like this.

Expanded: a laser only the firing mech can see goes to the target, it can look like an orange TAG or something. While the laser is on the target the lock on builds. So long as the laser stays on target the moment lock on is achieves the missiles fire. Missing the laser loses lock on the way moving outside the reticle does today (feels like double decay).

[Theobald Hauser]

I'm with you Critical Fumble. Manual acquisition but no ECM invulnerability, emulating the TARGA-7
And it would in fact give the "need to lock after each strike" ability that was popular.


AMS inability against streaks is more an engine thing that anything else - SRMS, streak or not, are just not long enough in flight to be destroyed. Quickening AMS acquisition and firing would ruin LRMs though.

Edited by Amarius, 28 January 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[CHWarpath]

ManDaisy, on 23 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Sadly I dont see a future for non ECM lights mechs if streaks continue with their 100% hit rate.
SSRM 6 is on its way and when one of unfair advantages of lights is fixed (the lag shield), the bandaid of SSRMs 100% hit rate should be removed. The reappearance of knockdown should also play a heavy role in rebalancing.

Jump is also inadversly affected by the streak 100% hit decision. Many feel the jump is too weak, this may have been because of the poptarting and 100% accuracy os SSRMS in combination with catapults. If 100% streak hitting is removed then jump can once again be more dynamic, giving heavier mechs back their jump potential and making lighter jumping mechs shine even more.

All in all I feel 100% streak accuracy is doing a disservice to every light mech in the game apart from the ECM variants.

Maybe you should do your job like scouting rather than trying to brawl. I can't count how many useless scouts want to brawl rather than find the bad guys and harrass. Scouts have ECM and do not get knocked over and have access to missiles, what more do you want to cry about?

[ManDaisy]

Maybe you should not do ad hominem attacks when someone is addressing a problem with a particulary weight class.

You expect every light to carry ECM? Ok so what about the lack of diversity due to lights that do not have ecm ... not being used at all due to streaks.

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 January 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[MWHawke]

Critical Fumble, on 27 January 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

• Firing a streak launcher activates an invisible no-damage beam similar to a medium laser.
  
• If enough of the beam's duration makes contact, it counts as a lock.
  
• The areas hit by the beam influence which sections of the mech the missiles home to.
  
• At the edge of their effective range, they lose guidance and arc towards the ground like they were under the influence of gravity.
  
• ECM does not deny their use.

Got your explanation on the Hit Box.

The above seems like a great system. Either that or Hitscan sounds like great ideas.