75 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

There has been a fair amount of speculation concerning the balance of Clan mechs and equipment once they enter the game. Many players suggest that 5 v 8, or 10 v 12 drops will be required to equalize the playing field. I don't think this is a particularly good solution, as the coordination of many will probably overwhelm the efforts of few. That said, I think that Clans may already be balanced (aside from some minor tweaking).

The secret weapon in the Inner Sphere's pocket that will allow their technology to remain competitive is simple: heat.

With 1.4 DHS, Clan weapons will simply generate too much heat to make extensive use of them viable. I did the calculations for the Heat Per Second (HPS) and Heat Dissipation (H-) for a Timber Wolf (Madcat).

Given a Timber Wolf Alpha:

• 2 LRM 20
  
• 2 ER Large Laser
  
• 2 ER Medium Laser
  
• 1 Medium Pulse Laser
  
• 2 MG
  
• 15 DHS, 10 Engine, 5 External

This mech has a heat threshold of 57 (30 Basic, + 20 'True' DHS, + 7 '1.4' DHS). An alpha strike generates 46.8 points of heat (your heat bar spikes to 82%). It dissipates 2.7 heat per second. Firing everything constantly, it generates 11.05 HPS.


Firing just the ER LL and ER ML, it generates 7.2 HPS. Clearly this mech will run hot.

NOTE: Heat and HPS value for the ER ML were based on the heat profile of the LL / ER LL (IE: I divided the heat of the ER LL by the heat of the LL and then multiplied that by the heat of the ML).

To counter the 'oh but you can just strip the MGs and add more DHS': yes, you can. At most you can add 2 more DHS (at 1.4 H-). Big deal. You've increased the heat dissipation by 0.28 points per second (bringing the mech up to almost 3.0 heat dissipation per second).

Essentially I forsee players having to make intelligent choices when it comes to their loadout. Clan weapons will save critical space and tonnage, while dealing more damage at longer ranges, but will generate considerably more heat.

TLDR; existing heat system combined with critical space limits balances the Clans.

Edited by Artgathan, 03 April 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[Prathios]

The clans are not supposed to be balanced. All this does is illuminate, once again, the glaring inadequacy of 1.4 dhs. Using a borked heat system to nerf the clans is a rage inducing idea for a Battletech game.

[Royalewithcheese]

Clan mechs are more heat efficient than Inner Sphere mechs as part of the general "anything Inner Sphere can do, Clan can do better" trend.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 03 April 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[TehSBGX]

Okay when I finally get a Thor I'll just Stack as Many UAC5s as I can. It'll hurt plenty and it won't be as crazy on heat.

[Royalewithcheese]

TehSBGX, on 03 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Okay when I finally get a Thor I'll just Stack as Many UAC5s as I can. It'll hurt plenty and it won't be as crazy on heat.

Why not UAC20s?

[FupDup]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Clan weapons are more heat efficient than Inner Sphere weapons as part of the general "anything Inner Sphere can do, Clan can do better" trend.

Don't all Clan weapons generate equal heat of their IS counterparts? The heat efficiency thing comes from 2-crit DHS that can be crammed in greater numbers than IS DHS.


Anyways, trying to say the Clans are balanced by looking at their stock variants is like trying to say MWO is balanced around stock mechs. People are going to change the loadouts on their Clan mechs, period. The OP seems to forget that we play MixMan Warrior Online.

They will most likely spam CERML, UAC/20, Clan Gauss, Clan LRMs, and/or Clan Streaks. Those aren't very heat-intensive (except for the CERML, but it's basically a 1-ton Large Laser with less heat). Nearly nobody uses ERLL on IS mechs so you can bet dollars to donuts that Clan mechs won't use them either.

Edited by FupDup, 03 April 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[Artgathan]

TehSBGX, on 03 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Okay when I finally get a Thor I'll just Stack as Many UAC5s as I can. It'll hurt plenty and it won't be as crazy on heat.

They deal the same damage and heat as IS counterparts (all Clan UACs do, except the 10 which deals 1 less point of heat per shot). You save 2 tons and some critical space, so you can bring more ammo / an extra DHS. Not a massive advantage.

[TehSBGX]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Why not UAC20s?

Can we Argee to UAC10? Having some extra range on that dakka seems handy.

[Scratx]

Glad I am not the only one that noticed.

[Royalewithcheese]

FupDup, on 03 April 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Don't all Clan weapons generate equal heat of their IS counterparts? The heat efficiency thing comes from 2-crit DHS that can be crammed in greater numbers than IS DHS.

Yeah, looks like it. The more you know!

[Franchi]

Scratx, on 03 April 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Glad I am not the only one that noticed.

Ive been saying this to my clan mates for months, clan builds will still be superior, but will be severely gimped compared to the advantage they should have lore/TT wise.

[aniviron]

The problem is that you're looking at stock chassis vs modded chassis. Go ahead and compare that timberwolf build to some of the other stock IS builds- it's not uncommon when I look at the new crop of trials to see heat efficiencies of .9 and sometimes lower. Even IS stock builds with better tech run hot- the AS7-K can fire those ER larges about three times before overheating, and that's if it fires nothing else, and is okay with waiting 10 seconds to cool off enough to fire again.

[Scratx]

FupDup, on 03 April 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Don't all Clan weapons generate equal heat of their IS counterparts? The heat efficiency thing comes from 2-crit DHS that can be crammed in greater numbers than IS DHS.

No.

Going by TT, there's a few examples. Starting with...

IS Medium Laser : 3 heat, 5 damage, 9 range
Clan ER Medium Laser* : 5 heat, 7 damage, 15 range

IS Small Laser : 1 heat, 3 damage, 3 range
Clan ER Small Laser* : 2 heat, 5 damage, 6 range

Ultra AC/10 : clan produces 1 less heat

(*) - Clans only have ER versions


This is just the heat, mind. Clan UACs typically weight about as much (if not LESS) as an IS AC of the same rating, and often also consume less criticals. ER PPCs do 15 damage instead of 10. LRMs have no minimum range. SRMs have 3 hexes more range. And don't get me started on launcher tonnages/crits.

Yeah, clans have large advantages, but MWO's heat system does curb them significantly. They can't shoot all the guns they can fit as often as they can without melting.

[Errant Variable]

Clan DHS vs IS DHS. Basic equivalency is 3 clan DHS to 2 IS DHS (crit space):
Before DHS nerf: 6 vs 4 heat / 10sec
After DHS nerf: 4.2 vs 2.8 heat / 10sec
The 30% loss per ton and per crit stays the same. Since (stock) clan builds seem to hold 15-18 DHS, 10 of which are usually internal, you're losing 30% of 10-15 heat dissipation - or 3 to 5 heat points over a 10 second 'turn'. 3 to 6 DHS seem popular for IS builds - so losing 1 to 2 heat points over a 10 second period.
So: clans do lose some of their edge, but using stock builds as a reference it is unlikely to be significant given the otherwise overwhelming firepower they tend to bring to the field. Supernova pilots may care more.

Regarding stock Timberwolf loadout:
Clan energy weapons do conform to the ER heat scale, but they also do 2 damage/laser more than their IS counterparts, making the CERMLAS carried by the Timberwolf almost as potent and just as far reaching as an IS large - you could think of it as equivalent to 2xLLAS+2xERLLAS, plus 2 damage to fudge on top, plus tonnage for eight DHS (and free crits for one of those) while generating 6 *less* overall heat than the IS equivalent.

Edited by Errant Variable, 03 April 2013 - 07:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Scratx, on 03 April 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

No.

Going by TT, there's a few examples. Starting with...

IS Medium Laser : 3 heat, 5 damage, 9 range
Clan ER Medium Laser* : 5 heat, 7 damage, 15 range

IS Small Laser : 1 heat, 3 damage, 3 range
Clan ER Small Laser* : 2 heat, 5 damage, 6 range

Those examples are invalid. You are comparing a standard laser to an ER laser, which are not the same weapon. This is how it actually goes:

IS ER Medium Laser : 5 heat, 5 damage, 12 range
Clan ER Medium Laser* : 5 heat, 7 damage, 15 range

IS ER Small Laser : 2 heat, 3 damage, 5 range
Clan ER Small Laser* : 2 heat, 5 damage, 6 range


The Clan UAC/10 is a valid example that I overlooked, though. Also, Clanners don't have to run energy boats. They're more likely than not going to just run ballistic and/or missile boats to avoid overheating. Also, the CERML is basically a 1-ton IS Large Laser.

Nobody in their right mind would hold more than 4-6 of them, even assault mechs (sort of like our current 6 LL Stalkers). That extra tonnage will probably go into CLRMs and CGauss...

Edited by FupDup, 03 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Davers]

Prathios, on 03 April 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

The clans are not supposed to be balanced. All this does is illuminate, once again, the glaring inadequacy of 1.4 dhs. Using a borked heat system to nerf the clans is a rage inducing idea for a Battletech game.

You are posting in a forum where every effective build has been called out as 'cheesy' and 'easy mode'. Yet you would want to see a whole faction of nothing but builds that would be superior to everything we have in game right now, and that only people of that faction would have access to. You don't see that as a problem?

[Lootee]

They're going to run Gauss Rifles that weigh 3 tons less than the IS version. Oh hay, their Streak SRM6's happen to weigh 3 tons.

Take a wild guess what kind of low heat, high damage builds clanners are going to be running around in.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 03 April 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[Karr285]

6 Large laser = 54 damage, 450m range, 42 heat, 30 tons 12 crits. I run a stalker with this with 20 DHS and it works pretty good
6 ERCmed = 42 damage, 400m range, 30 heat, 6 ton 6 crit
8 ERCmed = 56 damage, 400m range, 40 heat, 8 tons 8 crits. <--- so any clan mech that can carry 8 energy can do more damage than a 6 large laser stalker with Ample room for even more DHS.

cough cough Black hawk anyone 12 er medium lasers just take 4 off and put a few more DHS and your 50toner now out damages an 85toner enjoy!

Edited by Karr285, 03 April 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Artgathan]

aniviron, on 03 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

The problem is that you're looking at stock chassis vs modded chassis. Go ahead and compare that timberwolf build to some of the other stock IS builds- it's not uncommon when I look at the new crop of trials to see heat efficiencies of .9 and sometimes lower. Even IS stock builds with better tech run hot- the AS7-K can fire those ER larges about three times before overheating, and that's if it fires nothing else, and is okay with waiting 10 seconds to cool off enough to fire again.

That's a fair argument: however it doesn't work because there's not that much space to play around with on the Timber Wolf chassis. Removing an ER LL frees up 4 tons and 1 critical slot. Replacing them both with ER MLs does increase your heat efficiency, but it leaves you underweight (by 6 tons). With MW:O's current building rules, the Timber Wolf has 4 free critical slots in the Alpha Configuration (assuming it only carries 1 ton of LRM and 1 ton of MG ammo). You can increase the heat efficiency, but doing so basically puts you at IS levels of firepower.

Stripping out everything - except ES, FF and the Engine - gives you 21 critical slots to play with (and presumably 5 energy hardpoints, 2 ballistic and 2 missile to fill).

Removing FF gives you 28 slots. No matter what you do the build will run hot - there's just not enough critical space on an omnimech to install enough heatsinks

[DocBach]

I'm imagining we'll see Clanners strip out everything except boated PPCs and large lasers like everything else in this game.